compare canning/preserving methods: bottling/preserving with overflow method versus water bath

In NZ, canning's called bottling or preserving, and standard procedure is the overflow method:
Prepare fruit and cook in a pot with water, and sugar if desired.
Sterilise preserving jars in the oven, and lids with boiling water.
Fill hot jars till nearly overflowing and seal tightly.

It's really basic compared to a waterbath, and I'm curious to know whether others use the overflow method?

By the way, I'm ONLY talking about ACID things like acidic fruit-
if the product to be canned isn't naturally acidic, as long as enough citrus/vinegar is added to make it 'tangy' (below ph 4.6), you're fine.
Botulism must have a LOW ACID, ANAEROBIC environment to grow.

I would think that filling the jars that full would be asking for seal failures, since some of the stuff is likely to slop up onto the rim, between the lid or ring and the jar rim, and then stick there, causing the vacuum seal to fail. Most literature in the US recommends a specific "head space"---a distance between the top of the food/liquid and the rim of the jar, whether for boiling-water or pressure canning. Many of the jars I've found have failed to seal have turned out to have some minuscule bit of food stuck in the crucial seal area.

Alder Burns wrote:I would think that filling the jars that full would be asking for seal failures

the name 'overflow method' is a bit misleading, as I leave a little head space.
I very rarely have jars that don't seal.
So does anyone use this method, or similar, overseas?

Okay, I might be misled by the canning jar industry's and CDC's propaganda, but your Kiwi methods of canning make me uncomfortable...

I can tomatoes, pickles, salsa, applesauce and jam every year, and have always used the waterbath method.

Jessica Gorton wrote:Okay, I might be misled by the canning jar industry's and CDC's propaganda, but your Kiwi methods of canning make me uncomfortable...

Aha, I was thinking that might be the case!
Jessica, what are you uncomfortable about? I assume it's food safety.
Botulism?

I'm not trying to convert you to our casual preserving ways, I just find the cultural differences interesting
Aside from some recent silliness and confusion,
the only botulism cases recorded in NZ were because people didn't understand the danger in non-pressure canning is low acidity, not temperature.

"Only two confirmed intoxication cases (Type A) are
known to have occurred in New Zealand. These were
associated with home-preserved tiroi (watercress and boiled mussels)
(Flacks, 1985"

Anyone else have canning/preserving thoughts? What do Europeans do...?

I rarely can anymore, we mostly dehydrate and ferment....In the past, though, i've canned a lot and sometimes used the method you describe, Leila. quarts and quarts of fresh whole muscadines with boiling water poured over them to overflowing and hot tips and rings put on them....and some pickles....like 'bread and butter' (before I learned how to lacto-ferment)....just have EVERYTHING at a boil...jars, lids and the contents. Any jam I make I still do that way....fill to the top, screw on the HOT lid and invert for a bit and set upright again and leave till cool to wait for the seal. I don't remember having a problem with seals or food going off. Water bath pickles just don't have any crunch left, I think
This takes me back to canning on a woodstove out in the yard in the heat of the summer and getting sunburned:)We didn't have a pressure cooker so I canned loads of green beans in the three hour (I think that's what I remember) water bath...not a lot of nurtrition left after that. I don't think that is even considered an alternative any more.

EDIT....My son is canning both tomato sauce and pickles this way...not from my influence but his girlfriends, who learned to can that way from her parents. I think everyone who does this leaves the rings on, so then you don't have them to reuse.

Judith Browning wrote:leaves the rings on, so then you don't have them to reuse.

I assume they just don't know it's the vaccuum, not the ring, holding the seal on?
Please tell me they keep them when they eventually take them off?
There's no way I could keep my mouth shut in that situation,
though I'm pretty tactless and I'd probably make them all defensive!

I got my preserving rings from my mother, and some of the old-style 'gold' ones came from my nana.
Yes. My family passed gold rings from mother to daughter...for preserving acidic foods

Leila Rich wrote:

Judith Browning wrote:leaves the rings on, so then you don't have them to reuse.

I assume they just don't know it's the vaccuum, not the ring, holding the seal on?
Please tell me they keep them when they eventually take them off?
There's no way I could keep my mouth shut in that situation,
though I'm pretty tactless and I'd probably make them all defensive!

I got my preserving rings from my mother, and some of the old-style 'gold' ones came from my nana.
Yes. My family passed gold rings from mother to daughter...for preserving acidic foods

I take my rings off and wipe the jar threads....my son leaves them on, who am I to tell him not too...the guy is growing food, canning AND running a sawmill. I even got him started fermenting the last couple years. canning rings are really crappy now off the shelf. They don't usually screw down well after just one or two uses...they are not what they used to be unless you go to high end quality. Lucky you to have good ones that have been passed on.

EDIT..and if you leave the rings on and live in a humid climate they can become welded to the jar and tip in six months or so....they breed rust. My other grandma, the picky neat one. left them on and my mother was appaled that she would BUY new rings every year. I wish I had saved mom's canning rings..at the time we moved her down with us, those didn't seem so speciall but I bet they were good quality.

sometimes i do something similar, half assed canning i'd call it, but then i dont consider it totally canned. its like only stuff that i think i will eat within a few weeks, often put into the fridge rather than a shelf....but yeah i do something similar to what you described. no overflowing though, i leave lots of room on top.

usually when i am doing the half assed method i sterilize older jars and lids in boiling water ....and they dont always have the cleanest freshy lids...but its mostly sterile and i try to get them as clean as i can and boil them up. this wouldnt work for long term storage, but its only meant for short term storage, and usually really small batches of whatever..... otherwise i go for the full on method and get freshy lids.

thats so cool that you have your nana's canning stuff =)

my nana/ "tootsie" taught me to can when i was a little girl. you know i think she used to flip them over too, i forgot that till right now. i have never flipped them over

leila hamaya wrote: its like only stuff that i think i will eat within a few weeks

My mother has a bad habit of grabbing new jars first,
and I've found jars of 5 year old bottled fruit lurking in the back of the pantry
It's totally edible, but the texture tends to collapse.

leila hamaya wrote:no overflowing though, i leave lots of room on top

I've realised I shouldn't have called it that-
while that's its name, it's totally misleading and I've never seen anyone purposefully overflow jars.
Darn confusing names
I just fill nearly to the top.

leila hamaya wrote:i sterilize older jars and lids in boiling water

I just put them upright in a roasting dish and leave the oven on at 'sterilisation temperature'-100 degrees c (212 f),
pull out the roasting dish when the stuff's cooked and use a jug to fill the jars without moving them from the roasting dish.
I have a tendency to burn myself, smash things and make a mess, so this saves me all sorts of chaos!

leila hamaya wrote: i have never flipped them over

me, or my mother either. My nana did though. I've never noticed a difference.

i have never flipped them over
me, or my mother either. My nana did though. I've never noticed a difference.

Flipping them over was just for jam, I think, so that the fruilt wouldn't all float (or sink...I don't remember which). It is just for a few minutes and then they are set upright again. I don't think it would have any affect on any other canning except maybe fruit in a thick syrup....I always canned pears and other fruit with no sugar though.

I am pretty sure that I actually overflowed the jars of grapes....it was just water and there were no loose food particles.

Leila Rich wrote:My mother has a bad habit of grabbing new jars first,
and I've found jars of 5 year old bottled fruit lurking in the back of the pantry
It's totally edible, but the texture tends to collapse.


I just put them upright in a roasting dish and leave the oven on at 'sterilisation temperature'-100 degrees c (212 f),
pull out the roasting dish when the stuff's cooked and use a jug to fill the jars without moving them from the roasting dish.
I have a tendency to burn myself, smash things and make a mess, so this saves me all sorts of chaos!

maybe i just havent pushed it enough. i think of it as way to sort of can things, so i wasnt sure how long it would last.
perhaps i will keep this in mind tho, it is tempting to do it this way because its so much quicker and much less of a production.

i dont have a cool/cold room, and the weather here can be kind of brutal. food goes bad fast if left out, at least the part of the year thats hot.
tho i did some salsa this way recently and didnt want to completely can it, and the first few jars went quickly and were great, but the last ones seem fermented??? or something. actually i kinda think its interesting, rather than go bad they got sort of fermented. havent tried any yet but i think i will still eat them, maybe make some kind of spanish rice dish with them? the shelves here get pretty hot. i put a few in the fridge i have access to, and those seem fine.
now that i think about it though i dont think i boiled the last batch. the jars and lids were boiled but the salsa was fresh, and i was planning on eating it all hopefully before it went bad.


and totally this is a good idea with the oven. i am also something of a clutz!

leila hamaya wrote:i dont have a cool/cold room, and the weather here can be kind of brutal

Once jars are sealed under vacuum, the outside temperature shouldn't have any affect as far as things going off.
I'd say it will mean things nutritional and textural 'shelf life' would be reduced though.

leila hamaya wrote: i did some salsa this way recently and didnt want to completely can it, and the first few jars went quickly and were great, but the last ones seem fermented???

That's because it would have been
In order to get a vacuum seal, the jar contents have to be hot, like just boiled.
Salsa being acidic, you're at no risk of botulism, but maybe try a lacto fermented salsa
so you're controlling the fermentation?

Judith Browning wrote: Flipping them over was just for jam, I think, so that the fruit wouldn't all float

Well that makes total sense, I really should have googled it, lazy me
I've never had sinking fruit, but the rare times I make jam, I usually use pectin and it sets quite fast.
Aside from anything, unless the jar was filled right up, I'd be icked out by a jam film at the jar top!

Leila Rich wrote:
Once jars are sealed under vacuum, the outside temperature shouldn't have any affect as far as things going off.
I'd say it will mean things nutritional and textural 'shelf life' would be reduced though.

In order to get a vacuum seal, the jar contents have to be hot, like just boiled.
Salsa being acidic, you're at no risk of botulism, but maybe try a lacto fermented salsa
so you're controlling the fermentation?

interesting, that actually sounds pretty good. i dont have any whey tho.i could maybe get some fresh goats milk...does it need to have the whey?

the last three jars that i didnt refridgerate are up in hot cabinets and when i opened one up it was fermented ish, without intent. it did still seem appealing though, not funky bad, more fermented smelling. it seemed like it would make a good spanish rice dish. that will probably ruin the fermented benefits tho, cause i will boil it with some extra water so the rice can soak up all the flavors.

the first batch i made i boiled everything, including the salsa, and then sealed them up without water bath canning them afterwards.
those all came out great and stayed good, and i ate them real fast. but i kept them all in the fridge, cause the idea i have had is that they wont stay good that long. but maybe they dont need to be in the fridge.

well we ve got a flood of tomatoes here, so next time i make salsa i am going to try this method..not to ferment them, but just boil everything... just to see if it works ok without refridgerating. thanks for the tips, seems worth some experimentation. canning stuff is fun sometimes, other times its such a huge production.
lately i have just been throwing lots of stuff in the freezer, cause its so easy and i have access to a communal freezer here.

I just canned two pints of muscadine jam this way. and soon heard that satisfying 'pop' of the lid sealing.....not to keep for winter but for this sunday's birthday potluck's fresh goat milk hand cranked ice cream...we tend to eat up any open jam in the house so this is one way to 'hide' it from ourselves.

I got to thinking that one reason this does work is because there is hardly any air to release to make a 'vacuum'....maybe?

leila hamaya wrote:i dont have any whey tho.i could maybe get some fresh goats milk...does it need to have the whey?

I don't generally use whey in my ferments, but when I made salsa without, it wasn't that good.
we talk about whey in salsa here
I usually have some frozen whey, but if I needed it in a hurry I'd probably buy some good plain yoghurt and strain it a bit.

leila hamaya wrote:that will probably ruin the fermented benefits tho, cause i will boil it with some extra water so the rice can soak up all the flavors.

Yeah, but not the general goodness There's loads of traditional cooked recipes which include kraut, kimchi...

leila hamaya wrote: next time i make salsa i am going to try this method..not to ferment them, but just boil everything... just to see if it works ok without refridgerating

Just make sure the salsa's really hot when it goes in the hot jars.
Do give the fermented salsa a go too sometime; I'm very into texture, and one of fermenting's attractions for me is crunchy things stay crunchy

Leila Rich wrote:

leila hamaya wrote: next time i make salsa i am going to try this method..not to ferment them, but just boil everything... just to see if it works ok without refridgerating

Just make sure the salsa's really hot when it goes in the hot jars.
Do give the fermented salsa a go too sometime; I'm very into texture, and one of fermenting's attractions for me is crunchy things stay crunchy

yeah i really like the taste and texture of completely fresh salsa with no cooking, and big chunks of crunchy veggies. but well i have three jars to play with!
i think it will be good in the rice that way, when i get around to it.

but next time i will cook it to a boil, sterilize the jars and get them really hot, and try to see how long this last.

i also like the idea that judith posted, about pouring boiling water over fresh fruit. if the jars were pre sterilized and also really hot, seems that would be the fastest, easiest, canning mission.
that might not last as long, idk, but i know fruits can gather yeasts and stuff from the air while they are growing. still if you were going to eat it within 1-3 months seems like it would stay good?

yeah like i was saying above, i see this as a good method for short term preserving, or that is how i have thought of it. and for eating within a few weeks to a couple of months.... i have done this often and it stayed good usually. now i will try to push it and see.
anywho most of the stuff i can is really acidic, so that helps, and i usually add some lemon to everything too.

also like the idea that judith posted, about pouring boiling water over fresh fruit. if the jars were pre sterilized and also really hot, seems that would be the fastest, easiest, canning mission.

leila h. , Ive only done this with muscadines...I think it was just acup or two of whole grapes per quart and the rest boiling spring water...kind of a nice mild flavor from the grapes but not at all really juice. Now I can muscadine juice and waterbath simmer for 10minutes. I don't think I would do it with other fruit...unless I had the whole thing to a boil...fruit and all and only really tart stuff like plums or apples maybe....the jam works great but its not a keeper around here:) and I really don't like feeling like I am canning sugarso I usually just dry the fruit anymore...it concentrates the sugars and usuallyi mproves the flavors.

so i have tried this with both more salsa and some squash soup.

not exactly acidic, so it will be an experiment. i am not sure i got the jars hot enough, though i baked them in the oven at 200 F for quite a while. the soup was at a raging boil.
they were definitely hot, but not totally as hot as they come out of being boiled. i might boil them if i do this again. it could be that my oven is a bit fiddly and doesnt accurately reflect the proper temp, i am not sure. i didnt want to push them hotter, but maybe i will have too. 250 F? i dont want to break them!

so far its great. after almost a week i opened up one jar of the squash soup and it was great, tasted as fresh as when it went in, and had sealed. with the soup it is another case of just wanting to store it for a short time, and i felt it would be ok. i am also curious to try this out and get it down, experiment.i put a TON of honey in there, hoping that might help preserve it. its actually really pushing it cause people say you shouldnt can squash, but it was mixed into a soup with all that honey, and i am willing to experiment to discover how this goes. i suppose most people wouldnt want to experiment with this, but i am curious. and i have tons of winter squash! though it will stay good as is for a bit, its nice to have the already ready to go sweet and spicy soup pre made. with this i am hoping it will be good after a month or so, not for a long term storage.

i also like the accidentally fermented salsa i made a while back. i dont like it raw its just a bit too off straight out of the jar. but cooked into something it tastes great! made a huge mexican feast with it, added it to a bland spaghetti sauce too, and it added excellent flavor. once it got cooked it lost the off taste and just had a nice tangy spicy and great flavor. if thats the worst case scenario, i think i will do salsa that way from now on.

leila hamaya wrote:so i have tried this with both more salsa and some squash soup.

not exactly acidic, so it will be an experiment. i am not sure i got the jars hot enough, though i baked them in the oven at 200 F for quite a while. the soup was at a raging boil.
they were definitely hot, but not totally as hot as they come out of being boiled. i might boil them if i do this again. it could be that my oven is a bit fiddly and doesnt accurately reflect the proper temp, i am not sure. i didnt want to push them hotter, but maybe i will have too. 250 F? i dont want to break them!

so far its great. after almost a week i opened up one jar of the squash soup and it was great, tasted as fresh as when it went in, and had sealed. with the soup it is another case of just wanting to store it for a short time, and i felt it would be ok. i am also curious to try this out and get it down, experiment.

i also like the accidentally fermented salsa i made a while back. i dont like it raw its just a bit too off straight out of the jar. but cooked into something it tastes great! made a huge mexican feast with it, added it to a bland spaghetti sauce too, and it added excellent flavor. once it got cooked it lost the off taste and just had a nice tangy spicy and great flavor. if thats the worst case scenario, i think i will do salsa that way from now on.

Leila....this method of sealing jars is only useful for acidic things.......otherwise you could run the risk of botulism if stored very long..........maybe a week or two isn't long enough for it to develop though and you said this was for short term storage...it doesn't always develop, it just can, so I don't know. I think I would boil the soup the recommended time after opening just to be sure...I think it is ten to twenty minutes, but I don't remember for sure. That is one reason that I stopped canning green beans...seemed like after I either processed them in the pressure cooker or a boiling water bath for so long and then because of the fear of botulism, boiled some more after opening, there couldn't be much nutritional value left.
I like heating the jars in boiling water because I can leave the empties at a boil while I fill the others...I've never tried heating in the oven as Leila R does.
The cool thing about acidic canned stuff, is if it's off you know it
The salsa sounds great. I like a lacto fermented salsa and I bet yours was similar.

leila hamaya wrote:so i have tried this with both more salsa and some squash soup.
not exactly acidic, so it will be an experiment

Tomatoes have a naturally higher acidity than botulism will survive in, so even if you don't add acid, it's fine.
The soup's different, and I'd be concerned about that unless you'd added acid to it, as squash is not naturally acidic.
Remember it is absolutely vital to only use acidic foods in low-pressure canning.

leila hamaya wrote: after almost a week i opened up one jar of the squash soup and it was great, tasted as fresh as when it went in, and had sealed. with the soup it is another case of just wanting to store it for a short time, and i felt it would be ok.

Botulism is extremely uncommon in the USA, and basically nonexistent here as we very rarely preserve non-acidic foods.
But botulism's sneaky in that as far as I know, it's undetectable by eye or taste, and it only grows in anaerobic conditions and could only live in a sealed jar...

I really don't want people to be unnecessarily nervous about food safety, but at the same time, I want them to be safe!

leila hamaya wrote: i am not sure i got the jars hot enough (...) the soup was at a raging boil.

As long as the jars are hotter than you can even think about picking up in your bare hands, they should be fine.
If they're hotter than boiling liquid, you run the risk of them cracking as well as the contents boiling in the jar, sticking to the glass and so on.
Basically, if the lids seal, it was hot enough. If they don't, you need to eat it quickly or reboil and try again.

leila hamaya wrote:i also like the accidentally fermented salsa i made a while back

Bonus fermentation convert

*edit* Judith and I were posting our soup/botulism fears at the same time-
I guess that serves to underline things a bit!

yeah i hear you guys, youre probably right. maybe i shouldnt say so publically, i guess i wouldnt recommend it to others, nor would i give it to someone else. perhaps i could keep my playing fast and loose to myself =) !

when i take the soup out of the jars i am going to boil it for a long time, as i did with my first one that i opened. i only did a few jars.

the honey should help a lot, i even thought of adding lemon like i usually do for other stuff but it didnt go in my mind.

I really don't want people to be unnecessarily nervous about food safety, but at the same time, I want them to be safe!

yeah totally. i do in general think people are generally on the way too paranoid about certain similar issues, and this too.
but anywho i know you meant this for acidic stuff, not low acid foods. i acknowledge that this is probably freaky to other people, who would never can something like squash. but i also feel that it will work for how i am going to do it. but for the record i realize if i mess up its my own damm fault !

leila hamaya wrote: for the record i realize if i mess up its my own damm fault !

Thanks leila, it's important to me that it's clear you are aware of my safety warnings,
and take all responsibility for your decisions that deviate from them

General comment to readers: while my preserving method may look scary to some,
I know the science, and am always careful to avoid things that are proven to be risky.

and for as much as it might not seem so, i also understand a lot about food safety....being a cook and having been employed in the food service industry in countless mind numbing jobs once upon a time in my previous life ( well no, this one, just seems like a lifetime ago before i went half feral =)).
i was required to sit through food safety certification courses once a year to get a food handlers permit.

perhaps i have derailed this a bit, apologies if i have. i am sort of on the lookout for something a little different than your average canning.
i have limited space to store food, and a very tiny fridge, access to a normal size commi freezer which is basically full now with raspberries and tomatoes and other stuff from the garden. just having a tiny fridge and enough electricity is a major luxury to me still, for many of the last 12 years i have not had a fridge or freezer, or electricy besides small solar panels.

i really dont have a great set up for drying or storing food, and i have a huge garden...and (cue sad violin) i eat alone. so even though i love to cook amazing meals fresh from the garden, its a bit much to do for myself unless i make four or more "leftover" meals at the same time and can store them until i can get to eat them. which is a bit tricky with the tiny fridge and limited space. i also dont have a pressure canner, just a simple small boiling water bath canner. maybe i will focus on setting up the food storage situation better, and get some supplies or something. a lot of the stuff i am growing i can store in the garden till i am ready to eat it =) but some of it is very limited time only.

i would love to be able to make soup base and can it up, and store the leftovers better for longer. i also want to be able to can up salsa and tomato sauce fast (which i think this method is going to be perfect for) and to store fruit when its in abundance. but i dont have much room and likely i am only looking to preserve something for a month or three max.

i am pretty sure this will work out fine for me, but i understand youre not wanting to encourage me to do something that could be weird. i also think with the soup that boiling it up after opening a jar will work out great, and i wont get sick. i will eat it before anything gets funky.

like i was saying i have already done something like this, but even more sketchy maybe, though it has somewhat worked out by half assed canning leftovers and fresh salsa. sometimes i even did a bit of the water bath, but not for the full times, or say only half the jars and stored the rest in the fridge (the canner is small). this all is just a bit more precise, and also shouldnt take up the space in the fridge, because i was doing something like this but maybe not paying enough attention to getting everything to a boil. but i should probably not say it as though i recommend it for others, though i do think what i am doing is safe.