• Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic
permaculture forums growies critters building homesteading energy monies kitchen purity ungarbage community wilderness fiber arts art permaculture artisans regional education skip experiences global resources cider press projects digital market permies.com private forums all forums
this forum made possible by our volunteer staff, including ...
master stewards:
  • Anne Miller
  • Pearl Sutton
  • r ranson
  • Nicole Alderman
stewards:
  • Joseph Lofthouse
  • paul wheaton
  • Mike Haasl
master gardeners:
  • jordan barton
  • John F Dean
  • Carla Burke
  • Greg Martin
gardeners:
  • Jay Angler
  • Leigh Tate
  • thomas rubino

Beijing issues first red smog alert - what would you do?

 
pollinator
Posts: 157
11
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I don't know a lot about smog and I saw this in the news today about China's smog problem.

Beijing issues first red smog alert

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-35026363

If they hired you today to take care of the smog problem, where would you start? What would have to be done and how fast could it be reversed?

From what I'm reading it seems as though the coal powered factories and cars are most to blame???

Would more trees, plants help?

 
pollinator
Posts: 4154
Location: Northern New York Zone4-5 the OUTER 'RONDACs percip 36''
61
hugelkultur fungi books wofati solar woodworking
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Sheri Menelli : Before we take too many bows for how much better off we are then the people in the Rapidly Expanding neo-industrial Nation of China- lets

take a quick look at our not to distant past ! //// See link below :


http://www.buzzfeed.com/kevintang/stunning-photos-of-pittsburghs-air-pollution-in-the-1940s#.jyGPjGaYE


These scenes were repeated many places in the U.S., Europe, and London was famous for its "Killer Fogs " for Scores of Years ! Even Tokyo had problems

See this link about 'temperature inversions' - - - this localized weather condition itself will cause "Bad Air and can not be legislated away /// Link Below :


http://geography.about.com/od/climate/a/inversionlayer.htm


Not generally covered by the media is the wide use of 3-rock fires and horribly inefficient coal stoves, used by the Chinese peasant class and indeed 40%

of the world total population ! Making over the cooking heating practices of these peoples would dramatically affect both their lives and the lives of their

fellow (up-scale) countrymen, this would buy time for other reforms //// see link below :


https://permies.com/t/40778/rocket-stoves/SAVING-LIVES-Rocket-Stove-rock


Yes! Massive amounts of Trees planted over a least a decade would help both locally and world wide

As you can see this is a huge subject And its affects are world wide, Hope this was interesting and helpful, for the Crafts ! Big AL
 
Sheri Menelli
pollinator
Posts: 157
11
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Thanks for the links. I'll take a look in a few minutes.

I remember driving through LA maybe 20 years ago and I was terrified because it became difficult to breathe in the smog.

I was trying to google how LA solved a lot of this smog problem (as I understand it is better than it was) but for some reason nothing came up.

If there is any silver lining it is that things are getting so so bad for many cities that I hope more people will become enviromentally conscious - friendly.
But I do think this would be an interesting discussion on how fast you could reduce the smog if you were a government official.

Seems like the first things to do would be to get the cars that create the worse smog - supposedly 10% of them. Get those fixed immediately.

Plant trees and plants everywhere there is space or earth. Remove some of the concrete and add more plants.

Then start forcing people to use mass transportation and increase the number of buses, subways, etc

Seems like a lot of people were using bikes but when it gets this bad they can't - just can't breathe.

I'm sure a lot more can be done but I just don't have the knowledge

My heart is breaking for the people who have to live with such horrible air quality.

 
steward
Posts: 7926
Location: Currently in Lake Stevens, WA. Home in Spokane
318
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
One of the significant factors in reducing smog in the US was the elimination of leaded gasoline.
An unexpected side effect was also discovered: Crime rates also began declining.
There was a scientific study that linked the crime rate decline to the elimination of lead in our air.

The only measure that has proven to reduce automotive driving is when gasoline prices rise significantly.
When it costs too much to drive, people drive less. Nothing else seems to work.

Public transit is better in many areas than it used to be, but it needs to get much better before a significant number of people make the switch. People still cherish the ability to go where they want, when they want.

 
Sheri Menelli
pollinator
Posts: 157
11
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I wonder - do they still used leaded gasoline in China and other countries?

That is very interesting.
 
allen lumley
pollinator
Posts: 4154
Location: Northern New York Zone4-5 the OUTER 'RONDACs percip 36''
61
hugelkultur fungi books wofati solar woodworking
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Sheri Menelli : A quick google search found this, kinda interesting. The specific answer to your question is in the last paragraph ! /// Link Below :

http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2011/11/why-lead-used-to-be-added-to-gasoline/


I hope this was helpful and timely, For the Good of the Crafts ! Big AL
 
John Polk
steward
Posts: 7926
Location: Currently in Lake Stevens, WA. Home in Spokane
318
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

An unexpected side effect was also discovered: Crime rates also began declining.


For those interested, there have been several such studies:

Overview
Nevin U.S. study
Nevin International study
Reyes State-by-state study

When you look at them, side by side, it becomes obvious that this is not just a coincidence.

 
pollinator
Posts: 11802
Location: Central Texas USA Latitude 30 Zone 8
1051
cat forest garden fish trees chicken fiber arts wood heat greening the desert
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Sheri Menelli wrote:

I was trying to google how LA solved a lot of this smog problem (as I understand it is better than it was) but for some reason nothing came up.



One of the things they did was put vapor returns on gas pumps, and catalytic converters were put in cars, and some other things that I can't remember. I was living there when the air was bad and I had chronic bronchitis, but stayed there long enough to see it get a little better.
 
allen lumley
pollinator
Posts: 4154
Location: Northern New York Zone4-5 the OUTER 'RONDACs percip 36''
61
hugelkultur fungi books wofati solar woodworking
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
_ This is pretty much an interlude or a ''break in the clouds'' with much more MAL aire in the mainland chinese's future ! link below !




For the crafts ! Big AL
 
pollinator
Posts: 459
Location: 18 acres & heart in zone 4 (central MN). Current abode: Knoxville (zone 6 /7)
50
dog books urban bike
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Going back to the first post and the question of action: The first thing I'd do is strictly limit the number of passenger cars. The biggest change in China's street life of now vs. 20 years ago (when I first went) is the near extinction of bicycles and tremendous increase in the number of private cars. Improving gas efficiency and emissions standards would help, but private cars are a bane. For those who haven't experienced it: The pollution nowadays in Chinese cities is incredible -- even when there's no obvious smog. That replacing private cars with bikes, buses, and trains would improve life in N. American cities, too, goes without saying. But everyone used to get around in Chinese cities with those means, but when given the option, people prefer cars.

Thus, I think the best we can hope for is improved emissions standards and a gradual shift to electric vehicle (not that the latter are perfect).
 
Posts: 71
Location: Tennesse, an hour west of Nashville, zone 7
2
hunting chicken
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Sheri Menelli wrote:
Then start forcing people to use mass transportation and increase the number of buses, subways, etc



I think instead of forcing people to use mass transit, a better approach would be to make mass transit more appealing than driving your car. People generally balk at being forced to do things, and people care is part of our mission.

Think about Paul's pooper. He wanted people who were in the house to go outside to the pooper instead of using the much-closer bathroom. He could have locked the bathroom door and forced people to go outside, but instead he strove to make the pooper "more luxuriant" and therefore more appealing. Then people choose to do what he wants and they're happy to do it.

So if we make mass transit clean, fast, frequent, with convenient stops, we can get people on mass transit and everyone is happy.
 
I love a woman who dresses in stainless steel ... and carries tiny ads:
100th Issue of Permaculture Magazine - now FREE for a while
https://permies.com/goodies/45/pmag
reply
    Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic