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Standing Rock needs stoves for the winter. Want to advise or help build RMHs?  RSS feed

 
Suzanne Cornell
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These people https://www.facebook.com/SacredStoneCamp/
need help keeping their community warm this winter please help them
In solidarity with these brave water protectors
 
Glenn Herbert
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I'm a bit farther east than you are, and unable to go myself. I hope somebody nearer can help. A first step would be to communicate with them and find out what resources are available to work with (clay and fuel especially), and what constraints they have. It would be a great statement to keep these people warm over the winter without fossil fuel.
 
Suzanne Cornell
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I wonder why there has been no response to this?
If any one is interested in helping I will get in touch with the organizers. I don't want to bother those busy people unless there is a chance we (permies people)can help. I know many of them are in tents some very large some teeny. I was thinking pocket rockets with a heat sink of a cob bed platform.  Or a large rockets outside stove that pipes heat into several tents through a cob heat sink network (probably safer), but I am no expert. Looks like the area they are in has clay soil. Probably why they chose that location to dam the river.
 
Balazs Dibuz
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Hi rocket mass heater people.

I have an unusual request:

I am going (back) to Standing Rock to build some geodesic dome shelters for peeps to survive the winter and what better than a rocket mass heater in each to make them warm?

I will be passing through Missoula on my way (because it is between Seattle and Cannonball, ND) and so I thought I would ask if there is anyone there (or anywhere along the way) who would be willing to help be refine a basic rmh design to make it as easy to build and efficient for a small space as possible. I am donating my time and muscle (and what little brain i can boast) but have to keep material costs down and construction simple so we can make a few (10-12) of these in a few weeks before winter really comes down out there.

Anyone want to help or suggest someone who would? For a good cause.

Thanks,

Balazs
 
Glenn Herbert
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We have been hoping someone would be willing and able to do this.

While I am too far east to go myself even if I had the time, I would be happy to advise and work on a plan.
One basic consideration is that this encampment is temporary, and anything built should use as little imported material as possible and be degradable so the site can return to nature quickly after it is no longer needed.

With this in mind, I think a RMH built almost entirely of cob would be the best choice. Steel barrels and some lengths of stovepipe for chimneys would be the major exception, but are easily portable and recyclable.
The size and structure of the spaces to be heated would determine whether 6" or 8" systems would be best.
In lieu of firebrick or castable refractory, I would consider cob mixed with a high proportion of straw for insulating the core. The inner surface of the flame path would be more solid cob.
Substituting adobe bricks for the overall construction (can easily be made by the residents and stockpiled to use when needed) might be more comfortable for the majority to accept. Adobe is a traditional southwest material, while cob might be seen as "exotic" by some. The mass channels could be built of adobes mortared and plastered inside & out with cob.

If you can share your ideas for the enclosures including size and materials, we can suggest more detailed designs. Have you discussed your plans with the people there?
 
Balazs Dibuz
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I must not have had notifications on for this thread, so i did not see the activity in response to my (and others') requests.

I can travel and I can spend time at camp, I just am not an expert on rmh. The shelter I plan to build (and more of them if it is successful) is a geodesic dome 12ft diameter and almost 8ft tall (with added knee walls for the extra headroom). These would be insulated and are very efficient to heat. Heater would be on ground near center (wall venting pipe determining exact location).

They have lots of donated firewood that could be split into slivers for this and they could request pellet or other smaller dimension fuel as well. There is plenty of material for cob in the area. stove pipes and such could be picked up in Bismarck (1 hour away)

I could stop anywhere between here (Seattle) and ND to pick up helper, supplies, or advice.
 
Balazs Dibuz
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In answer to your question, Glenn: yes, I have been in touch with some of the organizers (I met them when I was there in July) and there is real interest in this project. There could be money for more structures if they prove feasible.
 
Balazs Dibuz
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I am building 12 ft diameter geodesic dome shelters for Standing Rock and would like to provide rocket mass heaters as an efficient way to heat them (they will run out of firewood quickly if they heat with open fires). Does anyone have a simple, easy-to-construct design that could keep a small, insulated space warm enough to bed down in? Or is anyone interested in joining me in going to Standing Rock (early November) to build one or more?

Thanks,

Balazs
 
Balazs Dibuz
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Yes, Glenn. Thank you.

I am new to the forums and am learning the ropes.
 
Glenn Herbert
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For an initial idea of all-cob RMH construction, here is a post about a rocket stove I built, which could easily be adapted to store heat:
https://permies.com/t/52509/Clay-Rocket-core-Bell-RMH#428887

You can see in the second picture the finished cob combustion core, with the beginnings of the cob outer shell around the base. For a heating application, you could add another layer of cob to the core to make it independently stable and more insulated, then build a larger outer shell with several inches of clear airspace all around it for circulation, and route the exhaust out the bottom to a chimney pipe. With a steel plate set in the top, this could be used for basic cooking as well as heating.
 
Amos Valenti
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Hello,

I will be traveling to the Wappingers Falls area the 2nd weekend in November. I would be willing to help out. I tried visiting the Facebook link above but could not get any details as far as location. I have some extra materials that I can donate to the project, mostly orange clay bricks but they come in handy for all kinds of things.

Depending on where you are located I can get 1 or 2 friends to join me. We are in NEPA about an hourish south from Binghamton. Let me know!
 
Balazs Dibuz
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Hi, Amos.

Do you mean the link to the Sacred Stone Camp fb page? Or Glen's RMH example?

And are you considering traveling to Standing Rock? I will be arriving there between Nov 10 and 14 and would like help building RMH for small shelter.

Balazs
 
Amos Valenti
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Balazs Dibuz wrote:Hi, Amos.

Do you mean the link to the Sacred Stone Camp fb page? Or Glen's RMH example?

And are you considering traveling to Standing Rock? I will be arriving there between Nov 10 and 14 and would like help building RMH for small shelter.

Balazs


The Sacred Stone Camp FB page.

We were thinking about traveling to Standing Rock. I must admit, in my zeal to help I glossed over much of the original post. The location of the posters lead me to believe Standing Rock was in New York but after a very informative internet search and thoroughly re-reading the post it is obvious that I am mistaken. I apologize for creating any confusion. The offer stands for free brick if you have anyone traveling from the NY/PA area I would be happy to meet them along the way.
 
Rex Litwiller
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Hey guys, I'm planning on leaving tomorrow morning to help build rmh at the sacred stone camp. I hope I can meet some people out there to help me with these builds. I'm leaving from Lansing Michigan, and it'll probably be about an 18 hour drive for me. I drive a lime green 2000 Honda Insight, and it's loaded down with supplies for the trip, and a few tools. If anyone wants to meet meet to caravan together along the way, pm me, and I'll send you my phone number. It sounds like they need supplies, and I'm not able to fit that kind of stuff in my tiny car, so it will have to be purchased or made near the camp. Glad to see there is a thread for this.

Rex

 
Glenn Herbert
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You can make an all-cob RMH which will take no materials from offsite (beside chimney pipe). All you really need for this is a piece or two of formwork depending on how you want to work. A way that lets all the forms be reused would be to lay down a base of insulating cob say a foot by two feet, let it stiffen up or put a fire on it for a bit t dry it, then put a box 6" x 18" x 6" high n the base and cob around the sides. Let that stiffen enough to remove the box, put a small fire inside to stiffen it up, then support a 6" x 6" board in the middle and place cob for the roof of the burn tunnel and the upper feed tube. When that stiffens enough, you can add the riser, either formed around a pipe or several boards tied together in a circle so that they can be pulled out one at a time when the cob stiffens. This method saves forms but will take considerably longer.

Another method, if you have thin scrap wood like pallets and tools, is to make a sacrificial core form, which can be placed on a base, packed around with cob, and burned out immediately. See my post linked above for a visual of this. You can make a core form all square instead of sweeping the back bottom if it is easier - perfection of efficiency is less important than basic function done quickly.

After you get the core done you can build up a bell around it, and a bench if desired. A steel plate on top of the bell would make a decent small cooktop.
 
Linda Listing
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This is out of my depth. I am on an "off grid" group on facebook. One of the guys is involved with Standing Rock. They were given a bunch of yurts for the winter and need help with heating for winter. Time is running out before the ground freezes. The guy looking for help is Frank Bumpus. Here's a link to the post. Not sure if you have to get on the group or friend him first. Anyone interested, contact him, not me. https://www.facebook.com/groups/OGWLiving/permalink/1706465126338321/?comment_id=1706512539666913&reply_comment_id=1706808566303977&ref=notif¬if_t=group_comment¬if_id=1478718421197048

Thanks.
 
Glenn Herbert
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I can't go there myself, but I can advise him on plans and methods I have discussed with others here. I'll see if I can get hold of him through the group. (You do have to join to see anything there.)
 
Linda Listing
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Glenn Herbert wrote:Linda Listing,
I have merged your topic into this topic. I hope that helps.


Thanks! i didn't have time to research this one.
 
Balazs Dibuz
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I am also going to try to contact Frank to see if we can work out something there on site at SR. I will be taking my shelter out in a week or two and have purchased a propane heater as a temporary solution. I think bringing materials into the heated space and then building the rmh while relying on propane may be a workable process. I just saw cow dung as a possible mass material, and it made me think "bison patties," how appropriate.

Thanks for your design links, Glenn. I think they will help when I get out there.
 
Rex Litwiller
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Hi again friends,
To recap on the standing rock project, and how things are going there...
We now have a small team of builders helping to make rmh. I left on Sunday for home, but there is still much to do to get everyone ready and warm for the winter. The largest camp, oceti sakowin camp, is where the help is needed. Sacred stone camp is the smaller camp located on the opposite side of the cannonball river, and it seems they have much more help and supplies then other camps there. If donating anything, I would advise going to ocetisakowincamp.org or for direct donations PayPal.me/ocetisakowincamp
Rmh construction has begun, with the first being an 8" system in the large white geodesic dome, a structure that can be seen from most anywhere in camp. If anyone can help with building these heaters, please do, and you will be fed and housed during your stay. Anyone that can help with permaculture projects of any kind are welcomed with open arms, and likely followed by a hug. These are our people, and we should help with anything we can. There are plans for many off grid projects, including compost heaters powered by human waste and food scraps, an earthbag schoolhouse, a structure to house the drinking water truck, and much more. This site is destined to be a marker in the history of sustainable living, and off grid power. I urge anyone that can help be a part of this movement to go out and lend a hand. For me, the feeling of connection and love was enough by itself.

Some supplies that would be helpful at camp:
Shovels
Tarps for mixing cob
Truck and trailer for moving cob (the site is on sacred ground, and is not to be dug without permission from the elders. Clay and sand can however be dug from the riverside.)
Straw bales
Firebrick
Insulating materials (vermiculite, perlite, mineral wool)
Headlamps for night time work (no grid power at camp)
Sub zero clothing
Sub zero shelters
Wheelborrows
55g drums
Seasoned Firewood
Axes
A good heart

Thank you permaculture friends
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Jennifer Bresee
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Hi all,
I just got back from Oceti Sakowin camp, and have a small report back from my point of view.

I just stayed for one day to bring supplies, and witnessed and was oriented in a few things that could use some clarification for those who may want to visit.

Firstly, there is a strong request to come self-sufficient. If you come to help, plan on bringing all your own food, water shelter and tools. Don't arrive with the assumption that others will take care of you if you come to help, because that's not helpful! Of course the camp takes care of people in need, and everyone in camp will extend hospitality if you are in need. And this camp is here to protect the water, not to take care of travelers. The best help we can be as guests is to give more than we take. Water, food, shelter, firewood, electricity and tools are particularly scarce resources.

Secondly, there is a strong need for more help in winterization! When I was there it looked like about half of people in camp were still in their summer tent accommodations. These are rapidly becoming risky, so if you go make sure you can connect with a camp that has access to tipis, wall tents, and other heated indoor spaces for sleeping. I know that RMHs will help with the winterization effort, and I think the priority is to put up enough structures that can be heated in the first place. If you want to go and help with RMHs, ask what the immediate need is first, so that winterization efforts can be coordinated well.

Thirdly, it's a native-led space. We all have lots of cool ideas of how to help, and there are lots of really knowledgeable native elders here who have heard cool ideas from lots of people as well. It's their space, so follow their direction so that all our efforts to help can coordinate well and actually be helpful. If you go, first ask what the need is rather than assuming they'll need your expertise. As an example, I have a friend who's a skilled paramedic and intended to go as a field medic, but turns out that they have the medics that they need and he was most helpful in winterization efforts, building a bunch of stuff. He happily worked his tail off for a week instead of practicing medicine, and left the space much improved. Also, ask permission from the local native people to build stuff, dig clay, cut plants, or use any on-site resource. The camp is here to protect the land and the water, because the US government and DAPL didn't ask before building their pipeline. We are there as guests of the local people. Always ask before taking, digging, chopping, or building something!

Finally, there is an issue with half-finished projects in camp. It is awesome to have people with specialized knowledge come in to camp and donate their time and effort to improve the place. And if those people can't stay long enough to see their projects thru, oftentimes no one who stays in camp has the specialized skills to finish the project. For example, they are building sheds to house their medical supplies. Due to a lack of tools, the build went slower than projected. The carpenter who designed and was directing the build had to leave before the roof was on, and the building sat for three days without a roof or a plan, until another carpenter arrived in camp who could teach people how to build the roof. There are a lot of unfinished projects like this around camp, waiting for a specialist to come along. But again, ask what the need is before jumping in on an unfinished project!

I hope lots of people can go. This is a beautiful community of people from all backgrounds. Everyone is super welcoming and respectful. This is probably the first time I've been in a native-centered space where I felt completely welcome as a white person. It was such a great experience to come to camp and be greeted by smiling strangers of all backgrounds. Water is Life!
 
Robbie Asay
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I second the above post as far as staying long enough to finish the project.  The elements will be against you as it is snowing there now.  I have been there as well as have friends that live in Standing Rock and you are far from necessities even a convenient hardware store.

There was a post here from Jesse in his ant village video thread regarding taking one out there.  I've made a post to one of my friends there(most of his family live in Standing Rock and he's there at the protest site) asking who they could get in touch with and am awaiting a response.  An Elder requested a woodstove but if this could be taught to some of the people there so they could remove it later and install it elsewhere that would be a wonderful thing.
 
Jesse Grimes
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Lots of good advice on the above two posts. There are a few people/groups here building rocket mass heaters (of various knowledge and skill levels from what I have seen, but I'm new to this as well). A ready made, ready to go rmh would be the ideal thing to bring here, as building with cob has its challenges in the cold, and there are some restrictions on digging.  That said, I'm planning to start building our rmh tomorrow.  I put the word out for a large space in need of a heater, and a friend of mine here connected me with a schoolhouse in the Oceti camp.  I've got all the materials I need, except for the cob which will have to be trucked in from a source not on army core land. I don't know of any contact person, as there are lots of different camps and groups working on their own winterization projects.  I would say, if you are going to come and build something, have everything you need with you and plan to stay until it is finished. Once you are here, you can just ask around for a place to build it, of course, making sure it is OK with the elders first. If anyone wants to find me here they can ask the folks at the strawbale schoolhouse at sacred stone.
 
Robbie Asay
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Great advice Jesse and thank you so much for doing this, and that goes for anyone that helps in big or small ways.  =)
 
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