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Are OG-certified heirloom seeds worth the cost?

 
                                    
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So I’ve been trying to find one good site to order all the quality heirloom seeds I want rather than going to multiple sources. I like the following site because of the variety they have however things start to get pricey when you pick the OG “certified organic” seeds. I could see someone buying soybeans in the US and wanting to be sure their seeds are certified but it seems a little redundant when considering older heirloom varieties. For example, the “Hearts of Gold Cantaloupe” goes for $2/g of seed whereas an OG gram goes for $2.75.  I doubt any of the seeds are GM so does this mean that the OG seeds, or the plants they came from, have never come in contact with chemical fertilizers or pesticides? I can’t decide whether or not this is just some gimmick to support the costs to get the certification in the first place. So I have two questions:

A) Has anyone ordered from these guys?

B) Is the extra $0.75 in certification worth it?

http://sustainableseedco.com/home.php

Thanks,
CSR
 
Emerson White
Posts: 1206
Location: Alaska
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If they are selling heirlooms you don't have to worry about GMOs, since they would not be the variety you want. Honestly there isn't much of anything that they could wind up spraying on the crop that would carry through the seed and then be in high enough concentrations in the seeds of that adult plant of the next generation to matter. I think that the impetus for it is for people to feed like their seeds are being produced in an environmentally friendly matter, even though USDA organic isn't necessarily the most green thing even invented.
 
Mekka Pakanohida
Posts: 383
Location: Zone 9 - Coastal Oregon
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carl_sagan_returns wrote:
So I’ve been trying to find one good site to order all the quality heirloom seeds I want rather than going to multiple sources. I like the following site because of the variety they have however things start to get pricey when you pick the OG “certified organic” seeds. I could see someone buying soybeans in the US and wanting to be sure their seeds are certified but it seems a little redundant when considering older heirloom varieties. For example, the “Hearts of Gold Cantaloupe” goes for $2/g of seed whereas an OG gram goes for $2.75.  I doubt any of the seeds are GM so does this mean that the OG seeds, or the plants they came from, have never come in contact with chemical fertilizers or pesticides? I can’t decide whether or not this is just some gimmick to support the costs to get the certification in the first place. So I have two questions:

A) Has anyone ordered from these guys?

B) Is the extra $0.75 in certification worth it?

http://sustainableseedco.com/home.php

Thanks,
CSR



Yes, it is worth it for more reasons then I could possibly write down over coffee in the morning.

GMO?  More news how Corporations are enslaving our food.
http://www.naturalnews.com/031919_seed_day_farmers.html#ixzz1IHveqmAo


enslaving is a good quote from that article too.
 
Mekka Pakanohida
Posts: 383
Location: Zone 9 - Coastal Oregon
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Oh and I use

http://rareseeds.com/

they have always treated me right for years. 
 
Tyler Ludens
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I order my seeds from companies which have taken the Safe Seed Pledge which states they do not sell GMO seeds, but if you are going to sell Organic produce, you need to have the certified seeds, I believe.

 
Emerson White
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Let me lay out my reasoning. All GMOs are mass market commercial varieties. If you are raising heirlooms then you have to rogue out other varieties. If you are roguing out other varieties then no commercial varieties will enter the gene pool. If no commercial varieties are entering the gene pool then no GMos are entering the gene pool. It's not as if certified organic seeds are all tested for GMO anyways, organic certification has a lot more to do with pesticide and herbicide use than pollen infiltration. Additionally re: certification, if you are growing commercially and you are using just 3 dollars worth of seed it's probably not worth it for you to get certified organic on your tiny tiny acreage.
 
Mekka Pakanohida
Posts: 383
Location: Zone 9 - Coastal Oregon
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Emerson White wrote:
Let me lay out my reasoning. All GMOs are mass market commercial varieties. If you are raising heirlooms then you have to rogue out other varieties. If you are roguing out other varieties then no commercial varieties will enter the gene pool. If no commercial varieties are entering the gene pool then no GMos are entering the gene pool. It's not as if certified organic seeds are all tested for GMO anyways, organic certification has a lot more to do with pesticide and herbicide use than pollen infiltration. Additionally re: certification, if you are growing commercially and you are using just 3 dollars worth of seed it's probably not worth it for you to get certified organic on your tiny tiny acreage.


The link I provided does check for GMO contamination of organic seeds.  Personally I would rather have food from heirloom seeds since they are more resistant to problems in the garden, and more often the not, the food tastes better then commercial / patented / GMO products.

..it's your health and your food.
 
Emerson White
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How do you test every seed?
 
tel jetson
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Location: woodland, washington
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there's an argument to be made that seed from plants grown organically will produce plants that are better adapted to organic practices than seeds from plants grown using synthetic chemicals.  in theory, the more generations that have been grown organically, the better adapted the selected seeds will be.  the impact this makes will probably depend on the plant and variety in question, but I suspect that it won't make a huge difference for most crops.  that doesn't mean no difference, though.

the question of what practices you want to support with your purchase is, in this case, mostly separate from how the seeds will perform.
 
                                              
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Personally as long as your not getting GMOs which you cannot readily get as a gardener unless you tried, I dont think it matters.

  it is true that the seeds would be a bit better adapted to organic growing conditions, but which ones? are they your organic methods? it can make a huge difference.

  I think whats most important is that they are varieties that are adapted to your location. further passive breeding could enhance that, but thats another topic.

  but starting with the right varieties for a given location can be all important, and make all the difference in the world.

    i would even include hybrids honestly. If you know a hybrid is good in an area, go for it. All a hybrid is, is the first generation of a cross of two varieties. Each time you make the same cross with the same varieties you will get the same hybrid. however after that first season which in the field is called the F1 generation you will get various line sups of the genetics of each parent. so you will be selecting the exact genetics within those parents that like your soil, and your climate etc. It would work a bit differently with each plant... and sometimes youll end up farther away from the starting point then you might of guessed, but youll always end up with something heavily adapted...

  Old heirlooms are GREAT!!! they are often heavily adapted if you get one from a local source and its a local variety. they often store well, they often taste really good. Not to go o far off topic here, but what if you had all those traits but also bred in higher yields? or even better hardiness or cold tolerance, or whatever it is you desire.... dont get me wrong preserving the old things as they are is more then desirable, but even passively you could also choose to enhance them, and get the best of both worlds so to speak....

just throwing it out there as an option, along with the idea that without a doubt variety selection is one of the more important choices no matter what your goals are.
 
Emerson White
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If you have the choice between something that's been grown organically for 5 years versus something grown on miracle grow for 5 years perhaps it could matter, but I seriously doubt that these seed companies are keeping appreciably distinct stock. I think that is an excellent reason to go with an heirloom variety over a moder commercial variety.
 
Mekka Pakanohida
Posts: 383
Location: Zone 9 - Coastal Oregon
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tel jetson wrote:
there's an argument to be made that seed from plants grown organically will produce plants that are better adapted to organic practices than seeds from plants grown using synthetic chemicals.  in theory, the more generations that have been grown organically, the better adapted the selected seeds will be.  the impact this makes will probably depend on the plant and variety in question, but I suspect that it won't make a huge difference for most crops.  that doesn't mean no difference, though.

the question of what practices you want to support with your purchase is, in this case, mostly separate from how the seeds will perform.


Excellent points, well said.  For me it is also a matter of permie ethics.  I want my money to go to a company like http://rareseeds.com over say Walmart seeds.
 
                                              
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Lots of good seed companies....  Look for things locally adapted. would you rather your plants fit your growing location or ideals? you will do much better if you take this into account.

canada (some will ship to the states)

http://www.heritageharvestseed.com/
http://www.prseeds.ca/catalogue/
http://www.saltspringseeds.com/
http://solanaseeds.netfirms.com/welcome.html
http://www.terraedibles.ca/
http://www.ttseeds.com/PHP/home.php
http://www.treeandtwig.ca/
http://www.westcoastseeds.com/
http://www.damseeds.ca/productcart/pc/home.asp

europe

http://b-and-t-world-seeds.com/homepage.htm
http://www.bobby-seeds.com/index.php
http://brownenvelopeseeds.com/index.php/
http://www.chilternseeds.co.uk/
http://www.eseeds.com/
http://store.irishseedsavers.ie/products/family/4/organic-seed/
http://www.loja.jardicentro.pt/index.php?cPath=27&osCsid=7992419d778867e65b626c6ae4e8cd9c
http://www.kcb-samen.ch/shop/geschichte.php
http://www.magicgardenseeds.com/
http://www.seeds-by-size.co.uk/
http://www.suffolkherbs.com/index.asp
http://www.tamarorganics.co.uk/pages/catalogue.php
http://www.realseeds.co.uk/index.html
https://shop.reinsaat.at/cgi-bin/katalog.cgi?lang=eng
http://www.semo.cz/profien/
http://www.thomasetty.co.uk/index.html
http://www.unwins.co.uk/vegetable-seeds-cid6.html
http://www.mammothonion.co.uk/index.htm

exotics and trees

http://www.alohaseed.com/index.htm
http://www.containerseeds.com/products/vegetablepage.html
http://everwilde.com/index.html
http://www.seedsofindia.com/
http://gmushrooms.org/index.htm
http://www.jlhudsonseeds.net/
http://www.djroger.com/moon_idx.html
http://www.treeshrubseeds.com/search.asp
http://www.sheffields.com/
http://www.banana-tree.com/
http://www.tradewindsfruitstore.com/servlet/StoreFront
http://seedrack.com/index.html
http://www.datreestore.com/index.html
http://www.whiteriversource.com/index.html
http://www.seedman.com

French
(Not a site in France, but a US site specializing in French varieties)


http://www.frenchgardening.com/category.html?cat=Seeds--French%20vegetable

garlic

http://www.gourmetgarlicgardens.com/silverskins.htm
http://thegarlicstore.com/ZenCart/
http://wegrowgarlic.com/301.html

general

https://www.artisticgardens.com/catalog/
http://www.bountifulgardens.org/
http://www.cherrygal.com/index.php?osCsid=5a73449722103d0dacf5625f63774f2d
http://www.cooksgarden.com/
http://www.humeseeds.com/price97.htm
http://www.eonseed.com/catalog501.html
http://www.grannysheirloomseeds.com/
http://www.heirloomseeds.com/index.html
http://www.heirloomacresseeds.com/default.asp
http://www.highmowingseeds.com/
http://www.irisheyesgardenseeds.com/
http://www.kitchengardenseeds.com/index.html
http://www.nativeseeds.org/
http://www.newhopeseed.com/
http://www.ohioheirloomseeds.com/Home_Page.html
http://www.one-garden.org/index.html
http://www.evergreenseeds.com/
http://www.plantsofthesouthwest.com/
http://www.sandhillpreservation.com/index.html
http://www.seedsavers.org/Items.aspx?hierId=8
http://www.seedsforthesouth.com/
http://www.seedstrust.com/joomla/
http://www.skyfiregardenseeds.com/
http://virtual.clemson.edu/groups/seed/index.htm
http://www.southernexposure.com/index.php
http://www.underwoodgardens.com/
http://stores.theseedking.com/StoreFront.bok
http://www.turtletreeseed.com/index.html
http://www.valueseeds.com/
http://www.vegetableseedwarehouse.com/index.htm

herb

http://www.crimson-sage.com/
https://www.gardenmedicinals.com/
http://www.pantrygardenherbs.com/
http://www.richters.com/Web_store/web_store.cgi?show=list&prodclass=Herb_and_Vegetable_Seeds&cart_id=1252530.30639
http://www.sandmountainherbs.com/
http://www.wildgardenseed.com/index.php

Italian
(Not Italian sites, but US sites specializing in Italian varieties)

http://m.italianseedandtool.com/
http://www.growitalian.com/Qstore/Qstore.cgi

mainline

http://rareseeds.com/
http://www.botanicalinterests.com/store/shop.php
http://buntonseed.com/store/
http://www.eburgess.com/index.asp
http://www.burpee.com/
http://www.crosmanseed.com/default.htm#Ordering%20Information
http://www.landrethseeds.com/
http://www.fedcoseeds.com/
http://www.gourmetseed.com/
http://www.harrisseeds.com/storefront/default.aspx
http://www.johnnyseeds.com/default.aspx
http://www.kitazawaseed.com/index.html
http://www.meyerseedco.com/index.php
http://www.neseed.com/
https://www.nicholsgardennursery.com/store/index.php
http://www.parkseed.com/gardening/GP/homepage/page1
http://www.rhshumway.com/
http://www.seedsofchange.com/
http://www.stokeseeds.com/cgi-bin/StokesSeeds.storefront
http://www.territorialseed.com/
http://www.victoryseeds.com/
http://www.willhiteseed.com/categories.php
http://www.myseasons.com/

pepper

http://rainbowchiliseeds.com/index.html
http://www.thechilewoman.com/
http://www.peppergal.com/

potato

http://www.ronnigers.com/index.html
http://www.woodprairie.com/

specialty

http://www.adaptiveseeds.com/
http://www.annapolisseeds.com/
http://store.happycatorganics.com/
http://www.monticellocatalog.org/inofcona.html
http://knapps-fresh-vegies.netfirms.com/index.html
http://www.liseed.org/
http://www.npsas.org/index.html
http://www.openpollinated.com/
http://www.heirlooms.org/index.html
http://sampleseeds.com/
http://www.woodprairie.com/

tomato

http://stores.ebay.com/Blue-Ribbon-Tomatoes_Seeds/_i.html?_fsub=2&_pgn=2&_sid=37602920&_trksid=p4634.c0.m14
http://www.glecklerseedmen.com/-Pepper_seeds/storepage80686.aspx
http://www.ghorganics.com/heirloom_tomatoes.htm
http://www.heirloomtomatoes.net/
http://www.mariseeds.com/
http://www.tomatogrowers.com/index.html
http://www.wildboarfarms.com/index.html

wholesale

http://www.hazzardsgreenhouse.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=SFNT&Store_Code=Hazwho
http://www.jordanseeds.com/index.cfm?id=67744&fuseaction=browse&pageid=1
http://www.osborneseed.com/index.cfm




 
Mekka Pakanohida
Posts: 383
Location: Zone 9 - Coastal Oregon
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carl_sagan_returns wrote:
So I’ve been trying to find one good site to order all the quality heirloom seeds I want rather than going to multiple sources. I like the following site because of the variety they have however things start to get pricey when you pick the OG “certified organic” seeds. I could see someone buying soybeans in the US and wanting to be sure their seeds are certified but it seems a little redundant when considering older heirloom varieties. For example, the “Hearts of Gold Cantaloupe” goes for $2/g of seed whereas an OG gram goes for $2.75.  I doubt any of the seeds are GM so does this mean that the OG seeds, or the plants they came from, have never come in contact with chemical fertilizers or pesticides? I can’t decide whether or not this is just some gimmick to support the costs to get the certification in the first place. So I have two questions:

A) Has anyone ordered from these guys?

B) Is the extra $0.75 in certification worth it?

http://sustainableseedco.com/home.php

Thanks,
CSR




Carl, et. all; this kinda goes for any forum, but when it comes to sensitive things such as the food you ingest, and your reasons for starting your road down permaculture I have one bit of advice.

Do not take anyone's advice as gospel (Even Paul's, Sepp's or my own).  There are people out there, even on the PRI forums that post to steer you wrong on purpose, or argue for the sake of arguing.  What it comes down with, reading everything with a grain of salt and figure it out for yourself since there is 2 truisms about Permaculture.  Nature is your first and primary teacher.  Second, it's you and your families permaculture, not some other persons permaculture.
 
Emerson White
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Location: Alaska
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My guess is that anyone who read any of Carl Sagan's books would be one step ahead of that advice. However It's wrong, I should be taken as gospel, now load all of your money into envelopes and send it to me, while your at it if there are any loved ones that you have who might amuse me you can put them in very large envelopes and mail them too.
 
George Lee
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Location: Athens, GA/Sunset, SC
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Sustainableseedco.com is the shit! Love those guys. I do all my business with them. I've had great yields and excellent germination rates. They get seeds from the late 19th century and early 20th stored on Victoria island off Vancouver.

Peace -
 
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