Older or heirloom varieties of wheat?

I'm considering growing a patch of wheat in the backyard, and would greatly appreciate your input on heirloom or older varieties and especially ones which might thrive in a hot, dry/drought-prone area of the American Southwest like where I am. I will be growing other things like amaranth, maize, etc. too.

Mainly doing this for experience. I'm not sure I'll be able to get enough planted to bake a loaf of bread, but everything requires a first try.

I'm trying a range of cereals this year. I think with these kinds of crops its going to come down to experimentation. I am trying Sonora Wheat this year. Its the oldest variety grown in California and suppose to be excellent for growing in this state. One great source of heirloom grains that I have found is http://sustainableseedco.com/home.php

Thank you, that gives me a great start. I think I'll give the Sonoran a go. It sounds really tasty.

http://www.bountifulgardens.org/products.asp?dept=4 ; also has some old varieties of grain.

I've ordered the Eincorn Wheat from Bountiful Gardens this year.  More just to check it out than anything else.  But it is supposed to have been cultivated 7,500 to 12,000 years ago.  I'd say that is an "older" variety.  Supposed to be a high protein, low Gluten wheat.  Check it out if you have not already.  They list it as "Early Stone Age Wheat, Ancient".  I'll try to remember to comment again in the summer/fall after I've had a chance to let some grow and see what happens.  Anyone else growing this?  What's the story?

  i have a friend who should be passing out a bunch of old wheat varieties out of iraq. this will be awhile though, for now in addition to the others folks listed you might check out KUSA.

http://www.ancientcerealgrains.org/archive.html

Sadly its hard to source a large number of older wheats, but they are around.

Coffee_Bob wrote:
I've ordered the Eincorn Wheat from Bountiful Gardens this year.  More just to check it out than anything else.  But it is supposed to have been cultivated 7,500 to 12,000 years ago.  I'd say that is an "older" variety.  Supposed to be a high protein, low Gluten wheat.  Check it out if you have not already.  They list it as "Early Stone Age Wheat, Ancient".  I'll try to remember to comment again in the summer/fall after I've had a chance to let some grow and see what happens.  Anyone else growing this?  What's the story?

It's the unfortunate habit of altering the spelling of names that's to blame :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einkorn_wheat

Sepp Holzer sows it regularly on his property and elsewhere, too.

Sorry about not having the correct spelling.  My bad there, just a typo in my post.  I've read plenty about it around on the net.  Hearing about it elsewhere on this site and that Sepp was cultivating it is what made me try to find the seed.  I was just hoping to hear from someone who is actually growing it, not just something they have heard/read about.  Einkorn anyone?...I stand corrected.

a friend of mine has grown einkorn. It was his opinion it was rather hard to thresh. But its a very adaptable variety as well, so its not a bad place to start....

  I would recommend gathering many wheats or whatever grains it is your going to try, unless you KNOW a particular variety is ideal for your needs. you can grow a few plants of each and see which you want to go farther ith or simply grow them as a landrace and save seed from the best plants each year. Youd have a range of genetics, and be better prepped for disease and other issues.

I'll be interested in hearing how all the einkorn trials go, this will be my first year trying it.
 

you need to check out the kusa seed society.

http://www.ancientcerealgrains.org/seedandliteraturecatalog1.html

soil wrote:
you need to check out the kusa seed society.

http://www.ancientcerealgrains.org/seedandliteraturecatalog1.html

I just posted that as well. I HIGHLY recommend people do check this place out. they have pretty steep prices, but youll find things you wont find anywhere else....

Next spring i should have many dozens of varieties of different grains I can share as well. Ive collected them from seed banks the world over.

SILVERSEEDS wrote:
   i have a friend who should be passing out a bunch of old wheat varieties out of iraq. this will be awhile though, for now in addition to the others folks listed you might check out KUSA.

http://www.ancientcerealgrains.org/archive.html

Sadly its hard to source a large number of older wheats, but they are around.

Get some of those Iraqi seeds, grow, and preserve them if you can. It's so critical to establish and maintain old lineages and their genetics.

Yes, I found during my search it was very difficult to find old varieties of wheat. Without you guys, I wouldn't have been successful. Thank you!

I'll try working with the Sonoran and the South African I ordered, but I have not sown them yet. The weather is erratic and one day it's like early summer and the next it's snowing. Silverseeds and soil, thanks for the KUSA link! Expensive, but worth it sometime. I'll try more in the future when I have more room/acreage to play with. Not sure why I didn't receive an email alert about this thread earlier...

  since your getting into planting grains, Id like to mention some things....

  first check out kusas "miracle barley mix" or something like that. that is the product of one of the best breeding projects that have happened most likely. It should do rather well in your area Id think.

  I wanted to say though that, we often think of grains as closely planted together, and this is because most pictures most of us saw were of fields meant to be machine harvested. they NEED them that close together.

  have you ever seen "tillers" on corn? Well other grains will tiller out to If they have space. so when you do try this, whatever style you plant vary up the spacing a lot. In this way you will find the optimum distance (and this will differ per variety, per location and soil structure) to plant to hinder weeds, while having the best yields. for small scale harvesting heavy tillering plants will usually out yield the machine planting style greatly!!! they arent as I understand harder to harvest with hand tool either.

    Also what soil type are you on? You mentioned corn. If you have deep sand you might try to source (nativeseeds.org has a few but Ive got more to share after i grow them out from seedbanks) they are from a hot area, but more interestingly were adapted to grow on what amounts to piles of sand. they shoot roots down 12 feet into the sand!!! only then does it pop out of the top. they are planted a foot deep into the sand!!! these plants also tiller heavily, in wetter years they will have multiple stalks with multiple ears. in drier years the plants focus on the main stalk and you have the single full ear with no irrigation in an area that often doesnt rain their entire season.

  You could use some perma culture methods and improve the output ive got no doubt there, but youd likely still need sand as the dominate growing medium. Im not positive because im aware of no one who has tried, but i imagine that these corns wouldnt have that root structure in clay soils. im using these to cross to corns that do love clay, and will be playing around with selecting for deep planting and deep root structures among other things..... not all relevant to where you are....

SILVERSEEDS wrote:
  since your getting into planting grains, Id like to mention some things....

  first check out kusas "miracle barley mix" or something like that. that is the product of one of the best breeding projects that have happened most likely. It should do rather well in your area Id think.

   I wanted to say though that, we often think of grains as closely planted together, and this is because most pictures most of us saw were of fields meant to be machine harvested. they NEED them that close together.

   have you ever seen "tillers" on corn? Well other grains will tiller out to If they have space. so when you do try this, whatever style you plant vary up the spacing a lot. In this way you will find the optimum distance (and this will differ per variety, per location and soil structure) to plant to hinder weeds, while having the best yields. for small scale harvesting heavy tillering plants will usually out yield the machine planting style greatly!!! they arent as I understand harder to harvest with hand tool either.

     Also what soil type are you on? You mentioned corn. If you have deep sand you might try to source (nativeseeds.org has a few but Ive got more to share after i grow them out from seedbanks) they are from a hot area, but more interestingly were adapted to grow on what amounts to piles of sand. they shoot roots down 12 feet into the sand!!! only then does it pop out of the top. they are planted a foot deep into the sand!!! these plants also tiller heavily, in wetter years they will have multiple stalks with multiple ears. in drier years the plants focus on the main stalk and you have the single full ear with no irrigation in an area that often doesnt rain their entire season.

  You could use some perma culture methods and improve the output ive got no doubt there, but youd likely still need sand as the dominate growing medium. Im not positive because im aware of no one who has tried, but i imagine that these corns wouldnt have that root structure in clay soils. im using these to cross to corns that do love clay, and will be playing around with selecting for deep planting and deep root structures among other things..... not all relevant to where you are....

I'm at the foot of the Rockies, and my soil once was at the bottom of Lake Bonneville. If I dig down about 1.5 - 2 feet I hit old river rocks and smooth, worn pebbles. As mentioned, topsoil is about 1.5-2 feet deep, bit like dust. It's generally dry and alkaline. I'm not sure exactly what it is, but it is deficient in organic matter being very light, except for under the maple trees, where enough leaf litter has fallen over the years and fluffed it up with earthworm action. It's also become compacted over most of the backyard due to mowing and non-organic treatment, including chemical fertilizer that killed most of the earthworms. That was what horrified me years ago, knowing as a kid I always used to go out there and see earthworms everywhere after heavy rains. Then none after a few times the lawn guy used synthetics. However, I've been coaxing the Canadian nightcrawlers back to health and trying to boost their numbers with compost. Now this is my turf. This is where I'll be doing most of my grain and corn raising, along with squashes, melons, root crops, and cut-n-come-again greens. I'm using compost and bark as mulch this year to improve the backyard soil and there is sparse but increasing ground cover of subclover.

My raised bed garden is different. Some kind of grey clay, originally was sold to me as topsoil but discovered it was subsoil and led to a terrible first year. I'm on year 3 now with this one. Has been *heavily* amended with all kinds of organic material, including leaf litter, twigs, branches, bark, etc. It's involved a lot of experimentation and observation to figure out how to deal with clay, but I think I've got it down. Retains water exceptionally well. I've found that squashes, melons, etc. love it. Grows good beets, arugula, and other greens too. Have not tried corn, amaranth, or any other grains on it yet.

It is hot and dry here. It's not uncommon to see 100-105 F, sometimes close to 110 F now, during the summer. Hotter than I remember as a kid. And that variety of corn sounds amazing. I'd always been told that corn had shallow roots and required lots of irrigation to keep it growing. Is there a name for that variety? I would be highly interested in the near future and keeping up with you on this. I'm going to do blue jade, which is supposed to sprout several ears, and a few other kinds. It sounds like you're heavily into breeding, which is very, very cool.

  I am very big on breeding however I only recently started it. so im not to far into it. Breeding many things though. which by the way with many things ANY one can do. some things youd have to work at, many others you can do passively and improve it within your set up. Its something id love to see more gardeners and perma culturalists get into.

  there are a few other deep rooted corns, but in general yeah they tend to have roots on the shallow side. theres simply nothing like the hopi stuff though. nativeseeds.org has a few hopi corns and there are others around. Most of these had this trait at one point, though folks dont as often grow them like that, especially away from hopi land. so the traits likely been selected out somewhat. im not real sure actually. I guess I will see. I do however have a few that i know still retain this trait because I got them from seedbanks. I will have seed to share after the season should all go well, however im not going to be saving many pure seeds, instead im crossing many together and building a corn that fits into my area dryland style.

    did you know perennial corn is feasible? It could be a lifetime project for a single person, but  thought id mention it since i was talking corn. i have the genetics to make that happen as well, but im not after the perennial aspect. Hybrids of dipplo perennis and zea mays have shown to be massively more drought tolerant, and corn is all ready a C4 plant, so it can be very drought tolerant. Also i should be able to get much deeper root structure as well. I can try a few other things in that regard, and will be but the main project doesnt include the dipplo perennis, just thought id mention it, perhaps to spark some interest in breeding.

    You know folks, being of the permie mindset as myself, but also delving into the possibilities of breeding has opened me up to some absolutely mind blowing potentials. would be hard for a single person to finish, though Im going to try.....

    Perennial squash anyone?(when i say perennial in this case i mean it dies and regenerates from the root) eggplant? tomatillos? sorghum? corn? wheat? rye?(these exist now ive got them but they need work) lima beans? runner beans? (these are perennial now with good mulch in some areas but could use some work) there are others as well.... along with many just as interesting things, but thought folks would like perennials. how about jerusalem artichokes with tubers AND quality seeds? with work this is more then possible.... theres 100 other things as well.... You can put the genetics together like a puzzle if you take the time, so the potentials within permaculture are limitless. Lots of plants have traits posible we dont often realize. sorry to take this off topic, but you showed interest in breeding so i went with it.... 
 

I just posted that as well. I HIGHLY recommend people do check this place out. they have pretty steep prices, but youll find things you wont find anywhere else....

not bad if you save seed for next year. a small handful of seeds can be a small field next season if you grow a seed crop the first year. im doing this with more than a few varieties of grain this year. some i only got 5-10 seeds of. but next year ill have a 5x10 area at least.

You know folks, being of the permie mindset as myself, but also delving into the possibilities of breeding has opened me up to some absolutely mind blowing potentials. would be hard for a single person to finish, though Im going to try.....

yea totally, i spend days daydreaming of the possibilities.

i also love nativeseedsearch too. they have all kinds of good stuff.

If you are in Canada one source for all sorts of old strains of grain (including two sorts of einkorn) is Prairie Garden Seeds in Saskatchewan  http://www.prseeds.ca/catalogue/grain.php?C=Grain ; They also carry other stuff but the selection of grain seed is pretty impressive.

Pam wrote:
If you are in Canada one source for all sorts of old strains of grain (including two sorts of einkorn) is Prairie Garden Seeds in Saskatchewan  http://www.prseeds.ca/catalogue/grain.php?C=Grain  They also carry other stuff but the selection of grain seed is pretty impressive.

this guy will ship to the states. Friends of mine have ordered from him.

SILVERSEEDS wrote:
  I am very big on breeding however I only recently started it. so im not to far into it. Breeding many things though. which by the way with many things ANY one can do. some things youd have to work at, many others you can do passively and improve it within your set up. Its something id love to see more gardeners and perma culturalists get into.

I got Carol Deppe's book on breeding vegetables a little while ago. Have read it once but need to go through it again. I should educate myself more on this, considering what I learned in school. High food prices, though, give me good incentive to take my gardening and expand it this year.

   there are a few other deep rooted corns, but in general yeah they tend to have roots on the shallow side. theres simply nothing like the hopi stuff though. nativeseeds.org has a few hopi corns and there are others around. Most of these had this trait at one point, though folks dont as often grow them like that, especially away from hopi land. so the traits likely been selected out somewhat. im not real sure actually. I guess I will see. I do however have a few that i know still retain this trait because I got them from seedbanks. I will have seed to share after the season should all go well, however im not going to be saving many pure seeds, instead im crossing many together and building a corn that fits into my area dryland style.

That's my understanding too. I might have some Hopi blue corn, but I'm not sure. I do remember that I had the baby blue jade specifically because it reportedly produces many ears and has high productivity in small spaces. I also did some reading online about the Hopi corns. The genetics on those are also very valuable. I'd like to do the same, and those were my thoughts, that if I was working on dryland corn (which would be appropriate to my area in Utah, which is similar to yours in New Mexico) the Hopi genetics is the first place to start.

    did you know perennial corn is feasible? It could be a lifetime project for a single person, but  thought id mention it since i was talking corn. i have the genetics to make that happen as well, but im not after the perennial aspect. Hybrids of dipplo perennis and zea mays have shown to be massively more drought tolerant, and corn is all ready a C4 plant, so it can be very drought tolerant. Also i should be able to get much deeper root structure as well. I can try a few other things in that regard, and will be but the main project doesnt include the dipplo perennis, just thought id mention it, perhaps to spark some interest in breeding.

Didn't know. I do know that there have been some attempts to cross Eastern gamagrass with corn with varying success. Z. diploperennis it looks like is a good place to start, since it is more closely related to corn than the gamagrass is. I would be willing to give that a shot. However, I doubt plants would survive my Zone 5 winters here.

     You know folks, being of the permie mindset as myself, but also delving into the possibilities of breeding has opened me up to some absolutely mind blowing potentials. would be hard for a single person to finish, though Im going to try.....

    Perennial squash anyone?(when i say perennial in this case i mean it dies and regenerates from the root) eggplant? tomatillos? sorghum? corn? wheat? rye?(these exist now ive got them but they need work) lima beans? runner beans? (these are perennial now with good mulch in some areas but could use some work) there are others as well.... along with many just as interesting things, but thought folks would like perennials. how about jerusalem artichokes with tubers AND quality seeds? with work this is more then possible.... theres 100 other things as well.... You can put the genetics together like a puzzle if you take the time, so the potentials within permaculture are limitless. Lots of plants have traits posible we dont often realize. sorry to take this off topic, but you showed interest in breeding so i went with it.... 
   

No, no, I totally agree with you. Corn and squash are my favorites too, though I've been growing mostly Japanese squashes because their flavor and textures are extraordinary. Even there, I can see the light but firm touch of generations of breeding and selection. For example, kabocha is a direct descendant of the buttercup squash, but tastes better, IMO. I also have dreams of breeding fruit trees and trying to domesticate some wild species or at least make them more palatable. Very intrigued by semi-wild vegetables like Fukuoka used to grow or are currently used as food stuffs like arugula, amaranth, fathen, etc. I hadn't considered buffalo gourd, but that may be something for me to look at as well. Is it possible to get it to cross with C. maxima?

maikeru wrote:
I got Carol Deppe's book on breeding vegetables a little while ago. Have read it once but need to go through it again. I should educate myself more on this, considering what I learned in school. High food prices, though, give me good incentive to take my gardening and expand it this year.

WOW, Im SO excited to see this post!! Im telling you folks breeding is the missing link perma culture needs to truly get a balanced agriculture.

That's my understanding too. I might have some Hopi blue corn, but I'm not sure. I do remember that I had the baby blue jade specifically because it reportedly produces many ears and has high productivity in small spaces. I also did some reading online about the Hopi corns. The genetics on those are also very valuable. I'd like to do the same, and those were my thoughts, that if I was working on dryland corn (which would be appropriate to my area in Utah, which is similar to yours in New Mexico) the Hopi genetics is the first place to start.

Well if you like we can somewhat work together on this!!! we are in semi similar areas. Ive got another friend we arent directly working together but sharing our stuff at each stage. Wed get get there faster.

Didn't know. I do know that there have been some attempts to cross Eastern gamagrass with corn with varying success. Z. diploperennis it looks like is a good place to start, since it is more closely related to corn than the gamagrass is. I would be willing to give that a shot. However, I doubt plants would survive my Zone 5 winters here.

well eastern gamagrass it is my understanding will not cross to corn directly. Either do most teosintes. however eastern gama grass DOES cross to dipplo perennis, and from there many projects have crossed readily to corn. Ive got both of these by the way. and a few teosintes.

No, no, I totally agree with you. Corn and squash are my favorites too, though I've been growing mostly Japanese squashes because their flavor and textures are extraordinary. Even there, I can see the light but firm touch of generations of breeding and selection. For example, kabocha is a direct descendant of the buttercup squash, but tastes better, IMO. I also have dreams of breeding fruit trees and trying to domesticate some wild species or at least make them more palatable. Very intrigued by semi-wild vegetables like Fukuoka used to grow or are currently used as food stuffs like arugula, amaranth, fathen, etc. I hadn't considered buffalo gourd, but that may be something for me to look at as well. Is it possible to get it to cross with C. maxima?

a breeder friend of mine worked at this for a few years, though sadly lost his work. Long story. anyway, in his experience trying many many types of squash, it was mainly moschatas, and a few mixtas, that would cross with the wild ones. After some trial and error, he got a few mules, and after some more trial and error he got viable seeds. this was the same way his perennial grains always started as well.

theres also as I said breeding these things for oily seeds, (which was once done and disappeared with a oil producing plant that on poor dry sites out produced other oil plants in the best of irrigated sites!!) given enough time or a bunch of luck you could directly breed the perennial gourds into being edible....

in fact annuals started out exactly the same. they were used for seeds, and eventually, who knows how lng, someone happened across a tasty one. and mutations built over mutation, recessive traits lined up various ways, and now today weve got 100s of edible squash.

so that particular project has two paths, both hard, but one can be done in a lifetime. especially if a bunch of folks got involved.

SILVERSEEDS wrote:
WOW, Im SO excited to see this post!! Im telling you folks breeding is the missing link perma culture needs to truly get a balanced agriculture.

Breeding is very important! It expands our options, adapts our favorite plants and animals to an area to make them local (and native?), and makes for great and unique foods as well as a diversity of lifeforms.

Well if you like we can somewhat work together on this!!! we are in semi similar areas. Ive got another friend we arent directly working together but sharing our stuff at each stage. Wed get get there faster.

That would be great! Let me send you a PM so we can stay in contact.

well eastern gamagrass it is my understanding will not cross to corn directly. Either do most teosintes. however eastern gama grass DOES cross to dipplo perennis, and from there many projects have crossed readily to corn. Ive got both of these by the way. and a few teosintes.

Stuff like that is important to know. They say the genetics of corn is complicated as well, and diversity amazing. I'm not quite sure where to start, but I suppose time and experience will tell.

a breeder friend of mine worked at this for a few years, though sadly lost his work. Long story. anyway, in his experience trying many many types of squash, it was mainly moschatas, and a few mixtas, that would cross with the wild ones. After some trial and error, he got a few mules, and after some more trial and error he got viable seeds. this was the same way his perennial grains always started as well.

I'm sorry to hear that! There are some really good C. moschata varieties I have and know of. Mainly Asian varieties, because I'm not a big fan of butternut. I wonder if it would be possible to get some of these to cross with the buffalo gourd. That piece of info about the moschatas and mixtas is very valuable, otherwise I would probably spend several years trying to get my perennial Japanese maximas off the ground.

theres also as I said breeding these things for oily seeds, (which was once done and disappeared with a oil producing plant that on poor dry sites out produced other oil plants in the best of irrigated sites!!) given enough time or a bunch of luck you could directly breed the perennial gourds into being edible....

Actually, that kind of makes sense, since many plants under stress quite often produce more flowers and seeds in an attempt to increase their reproductive potential and survival. I've noticed too even if plants produce fewer fruits without irrigation, in the case of some, like tomatoes, they're of better quality. Irrigation isn't always a good thing.

in fact annuals started out exactly the same. they were used for seeds, and eventually, who knows how lng, someone happened across a tasty one. and mutations built over mutation, recessive traits lined up various ways, and now today weve got 100s of edible squash.

so that particular project has two paths, both hard, but one can be done in a lifetime. especially if a bunch of folks got involved.

A lot of wild perennials have been domesticated into annuals. A few off the top of my head include rice, rye, etc.

  i have perennial rye if you want it. It is perennial at this point. It is edible, but there still needs to be some selection done to it. Luckily though the harder parts been done. in the mean time its a great biomass builder and wildlife loves it!!!

  butternuts should work yes. If you seriously want to try this, we can talk out the details in PM. absolutely no pressure, i dont want to waste seeds on someone who doesnt want to help me, I dont have a lot, until I bulk many of them up. So if its semi interested, i can send some later. If its true deep down interest, then Ive got it now.
 

SILVERSEEDS wrote:
  i have perennial rye if you want it. It is perennial at this point. It is edible, but there still needs to be some selection done to it. Luckily though the harder parts been done. in the mean time its a great biomass builder and wildlife loves it!!!

  butternuts should work yes. If you seriously want to try this, we can talk out the details in PM. absolutely no pressure, i dont want to waste seeds on someone who doesnt want to help me, I dont have a lot, until I bulk many of them up. So if its semi interested, i can send some later. If its true deep down interest, then Ive got it now.
   

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