leaving potatoes in vs virus

I was going to hijack the potato thread, but decided to start another one.
I have a few questions regarding spuds and disease.
I've never managed to dig all my potatoes, a  few always remain and sprout again next season. After being rather casual about potato virus' potential problems, I'm now feeling pretty nervous.
I suppose I'll wait till the current batch of missed tiddlers produce, then basically sift out every one!
Potatoes must be really 'bred'. Is it a sort of viral version of inbreeding depression? I'm wondering whether wild/ancient/original types from Latin America are more resistant to virus buildup than more modern varieties?
So once I grow potatoes from seed, can I then replant the tubers indefinitely?
I'm off to do some research of my own, but I'd love to hear other's potato experiences, especially along the lines of "they were in the same place for a few years. Everything is fine/turned to custard'.

I confess I know nothing about potato viruses.  I've never witnessed a problem with it, though I have seen potatoes grown in the same soil for years and years.  That's not to say it couldn't be a problem, but it wasn't where I saw it.

Maybe part of the success was due to the intermixed other species growing with the potatoes.  They were growing accidently in a flower bed!  I think the flowers growing around them included nasturtiums, marigolds, and various wildflowers like california poppy, forget me not,  and bachelor buttons.

It was a sunny hill, never really tended or watered much.  Plenty of natural mulch from each year's plant litter being left behind, and new things just being allowed to sprout through, with a halfhearted effort to pull out the potatoes at the end of each season.  Good thing potatoes are a rather pretty plant!  It was right by our driveway.

I do know that potatoes grown from seed will not breed true to their parents.  Potatoes have a lot of natural genetic variability, and can mutate in many different ways. That's why commercial potatoes are grown from spud pieces... otherwise there'd be no telling what the farmer would get!

Well I just made a big post on this to the other thread.... this Is a very serious issue. It is heavily regulated the world over, and not even legal to plant non certified seed in many countries. even just in your back yard. Farmers go to extreme lengths to ensure they do not carry the viruses over. because once they build up you have to go to extreme measures to get rid of them, it also lowers yields as vigor is lost.

  they actually grow out the tubers in a lab in such a way it outgrows the viruses that build up, its simply how potato tubers work. (which is likely why their seeds last 25 plus years, and as crunchy bread said they are rather diverse even in a field of clones) 

   they then take the various plants growing off the tubers and test each one individually. some still carry the viruses despite the effort, the others they take and continue to divide, and grow those out. Those become the first generation seed potatoes, which are then grown out and spread to build up enough to sell enough of that clone of potatoe to farmers etc.

   the people in south america never had these issues because they always grew theirs from the actual seeds. which is not hard at all, you simply start them early like tomatoes and plant them out. then if one variety performs particularly well, you can safely grow from the tubers a few years. Or do some things to ensure your taters are virus free.

    put "certified seed potatoes " into a search engine once... you should find all this info. the entire industry is structured around negating these issues. Within the industry potatoes are sold designating how many generations from a lab they are, and by the time we get them in the store they are usually (not always, but the bulk) are generations 4-6... they cannot be re certified after 6. how long are they safe after that? well im sure there are a thousand factors from what the farmers did, and their soils... to what the store did, to what you did, and the things your soil carries and a 100 different ways those play together... im betting its a big reason they spray those anti spouting things on them also, even if that isnt specified.

I keep hearing the warnings, but I am failing to see the "how & why" when I have examples like Robert Hart, the actual plant living in the wild, and other people like Crunchybread & myself pointing saying, "come again, what now?"

To be fair, when I said my mom grew potatoes on the same hill for years, I'm probably talking about six years or so.  If what Silverseeds says holds true, that could have been right at the tipping point where viruses would have begun to show up soon.  I don't know what may have happened over longer time frames, because that's when we moved away from that house.

Then again, I do not know whether growing them in a diverse, naturalized, organic setting might not have had some protective effect.  Perhaps a live ecosystem somehow helps combat potato viruses.  I'm pretty sure commercial growers are not generally growing them in systems that even vaguely resemble that model.  But again, I really do not know whether there would be any effect.  It's just a vague feeling that anything biodiverse and organic surely must be healthier than any chemically treated monoculture.  I just don't have any information about viruses specifically reacting to those conditions.

As Silverseeds says, it would be a risk.  Maybe with a microscope one could determine virus activity, but otherwise it's a situation where you just wait and hope, and if your gamble doesn't pay off, then you're stuck with viruses in your soil forever, and even your potato-growing neighbors will hate you.

Mekka Pakanohida wrote:
I keep hearing the warnings, but I am failing to see the "how & why" when I have examples like Robert Hart, the actual plant living in the wild, and other people like Crunchybread & myself pointing saying, "come again, what now?"

study it.... I didnt make it up, the entire potato growing industry works this way, its not even legal to plant non certified seed in many countries. You seem to be implying Im wrong, im not remotely wrong.

how and why?  because the skin builds up the viruses, as does the soil. no way to wash them away, atleast that anyone knows of.

the plant growing in the wild as i said spreads by seeds. as well as tubers. the seeds can live in the soil 25 plus years and are designed so that not all will germinate at first no matter what you do. also where the plant is native they have EXTREME diversity compared to what we grow outside of those areas, even with that the locals always grew them by seeds.  there will be seeds in the soil for a long time, and many will wait for years) you do it however you like, but its pretty much a given it will catch up to you given a long enough time line.  the diversity of the site might negate the advancement but not likely to halt it. we are talking the build up of things all ready present in the wild.

just study the issue folks. Its as big a deal as I am saying. If you intend to use potatoes as a staple, ignoring this wouldnt be to wise. because what your doing will work, that is until it doesnt and you cant grow potatoes on the site for years without instant issues. If your going to ignore me atleast save some actual potatoe seeds, so you could start over in many years after your soil is ok again.

SILVERSEEDS wrote:
study it.... I didnt make it up, the entire potato growing industry works this way, its not even legal to plant non certified seed in many countries. You seem to be implying Im wrong, im not remotely wrong.

how and why?  because the skin builds up the viruses, as does the soil. no way to wash them away, atleast that anyone knows of.

the plant growing in the wild as i said spreads by seeds. as well as tubers. the seeds can live in the soil 25 plus years and are designed so that not all will germinate at first no matter what you do. also where the plant is native they have EXTREME diversity compared to what we grow outside of those areas, even with that the locals always grew them by seeds.  there will be seeds in the soil for a long time, and many will wait for years) you do it however you like, but its pretty much a given it will catch up to you given a long enough time line.  the diversity of the site might negate the advancement but not likely to halt it. we are talking the build up of things all ready present in the wild.

just study the issue folks. Its as big a deal as I am saying. If you intend to use potatoes as a staple, ignoring this wouldnt be to wise. because what your doing will work, that is until it doesnt and you cant grow potatoes on the site for years without instant issues. If your going to ignore me atleast save some actual potatoe seeds, so you could start over in many years after your soil is ok again.

I am not inferring that at all.  What I am questioning is why is this occurring, but this is occurring because of monoculture.  So perhaps the solution isn't to look at what has happened because of the monoculture, but rather, what happened prior to the monoculture system and how it worked then to solve this virus issue.  That's what I am trying to find out.

What happened from the tater going from the polycultural world, to building up virii in a monocultural world. 

Has research been done on the polyculture side to support the virii problem in the monoculture side..  maybe I am not explaining myself well. 


The way it sounds, once a permie property utilizes all the soil for growing taters, and then goes back to the same rotation 10,20, 50, 100 years down the line there could be virii all over the property.. that's the terrifying way it sounds...  and I don't abide that.  There must be a true solution since this is and was a perennial food at one point.

Mekka Pakanohida wrote:
I am not inferring that at all.  What I am questioning is why is this occurring, but this is occurring because of monoculture.  So perhaps the solution isn't to look at what has happened because of the monoculture, but rather, what happened prior to the monoculture system and how it worked then to solve this virus issue.  That's what I am trying to find out.

What happened from the tater going from the polycultural world, to building up virii in a monocultural world. 

Has research been done on the polyculture side to support the virii problem in the monoculture side..  maybe I am not explaining myself well. 

before mono culture, the answer was, like I said growing new plants from the actual seeds. these things NEVER get a chance to build up like that. this is what they did in south america the entire time.

I personally know of no work that tested if these things still build up in poly cultures, but as I understand it, it wouldnt matter, its all naturally occuring things, that build up in the soil and on the tubers you have together. It appears to have some type of symbiotic relationship like that. atleast as i understood it, Im not sure other plants would mitigate it, but since that implies wider spacing it might somewhat.

there are ways to deal with it. Id have to look them up, because i forget, going from the TPS seeds, is a good enough answer for me. that way i never have to think about it.

SILVERSEEDS wrote:
before mono culture, the answer was, like I said growing new plants from the actual seeds. these things NEVER get a chance to build up like that. this is what they did in south america the entire time.

I want to know before that time.  I want to know how this tater grew and grew happily till suddenly one day someone at one.  The plant reproduces both ways, most likely always has, so how and why did this virus problem occur?  Follow?  I think you and I will not find the answer to this question, at least not easily.

Mekka Pakanohida wrote:

I want to know before that time.  I want to know how this tater grew and grew happily till suddenly one day someone at one.  The plant reproduces both ways, most likely always has, so how and why did this virus problem occur?  Follow?  I think you and I will not find the answer to this question, at least not easily.

It was never a problem but as always there is my understanding. and lots of plants can spread by tuber or seeds. the seeds last 25 years, and will never germinate all the same year. in their native range there is extreme genetic diversity, multiples wider then what we see in our taters. All the answers are right there....  imo ...... honestly in this case im not sure mono cultures played an impact, though it could easily make it happen faster, it would still happen as I understand it.

theres also a reason the people in south america propagated by seeds instead of tubers. surely one of them realized its clonal from tubers, and you can better carry on good plants. they were great farmers, Ive got little doubt it was tried. They grew it from seeds in the same soil for thousands of years with no problems though. problems only happen when you grow from tubers only....

lots of plants have natural ebbs and flows of disease cycles in the wild. My point is potatoes have all the tools to battle that.... in fact most solanums seem to have those disease cycles if left to their own devices.

Part of the problem may lie in the fact that only a few varieties were brought from the New World.  In the Old World, these few varieties have crossed with very little genetic diversity, hence little lack of vigor and resistance.  Old World farming practices (which "we" adopted in our portion of the New World) favor monoculture, which is an open invitation to natural diseases.

In the Andean region, you can go to a small village market and see 100 varieties of potato (and other tubers) on sale.  In a US market, you may see 3-4 (all derived from the same small gene pool).  Our tunnel vision greatly limits what we can see.

John Polk wrote:
Part of the problem may lie in the fact that only a few varieties were brought from the New World.  In the Old World, these few varieties have crossed with very little genetic diversity, hence little lack of vigor and resistance.  Old World farming practices (which "we" adopted in our portion of the New World) favor monoculture, which is an open invitation to natural diseases.

In the Andean region, you can go to a small village market and see 100 varieties of potato (and other tubers) on sale.  In a US market, you may see 3-4 (all derived from the same small gene pool).  Our tunnel vision greatly limits what we can see.

  very true.

in fact not only was there a bottleneck, but a bottleneck of a bottleneck, i forget the percentage, but a large chunk of modern taters were derived from luther burbanks russet i think it is, burbank did it for sure. he noticed the seeds in a potatoe field, planted it, got a potatoe that far out yielded any currently known, and now its a cornerstone of many varieties.

I've harvested potatoes from a site they were grown in for about 6 years. The skin was very scabby, but there was no loss of vigor or quality of the flesh.

Like fingerprints, no two soils are alike.  In Ireland, potatoes were a staple for many years before the blight took hold.  I do not know, but there also exists the possibility that potato blight does not exist in the Andean soils.  That could be another key factor.

  late blight is one of many many things in question here.... most of which they carry in their soils as well, including late blight. which travels on the wind..... like probably most of the rest.

  so their soils have all or most of those things... perhaps though.... their are other soil born organisms that keep those in check somewhat??? that no one has studied yet??? that didnt transport on the potatoe as the others did?

  actually peru is starting to have lots of potatoe issues. its being blamed on climate change.... many also apparently  it seems like they are out of practice of saving TPS seeds by the way....

   

Im actually going to try and produce true seed this year and see how it goes.

Here is a Wikipedia quote that pretty well shows that late (potato) blight does/did not exist in the Andes:

The origin of Phytophthora infestans can be traced to a valley in the highlands of central Mexico. The first recorded instances of the disease were in the United States, in Philadelphia and New York City in early 1843. Winds then spread the spores, and in 1845 it was found from Illinois to Nova Scotia, and from Virginia to Ontario. It crossed the Atlantic Ocean with a shipment of seed potatoes for Belgian farmers in 1845

John Polk wrote:
Here is a Wikipedia quote that pretty well shows that late (potato) blight does/did not exist in the Andes:

The origin of Phytophthora infestans can be traced to a valley in the highlands of central Mexico. The first recorded instances of the disease were in the United States, in Philadelphia and New York City in early 1843. Winds then spread the spores, and in 1845 it was found from Illinois to Nova Scotia, and from Virginia to Ontario. It crossed the Atlantic Ocean with a shipment of seed potatoes for Belgian farmers in 1845

well it certainly does now.... also for the record the range of potatoes goes all the way up through mexico, into the americas. Ive got wild potatoes here in new mexico, and they are in utah to..... isolated patches of undesirable ones though outside of south america.

I'm quite curious to learn how potatoes grown from seed will produce.  How close to their parent plants can you expect them to be?  We know there is a lot of mutation to be expected, but does this mean that in 100 russet seeds you'll get 99 russets and one like a purple corkscrew?  Or does it mean you'll get perhaps 99 potatoes that are all 99% like their parent russet plant, but with slight variability in size or color or starch content?

Inquiring minds want to know.

CrunchyBread wrote:
I'm quite curious to learn how potatoes grown from seed will produce.  How close to their parent plants can you expect them to be?  We know there is a lot of mutation to be expected, but does this mean that in 100 russet seeds you'll get 99 russets and one like a purple corkscrew?  Or does it mean you'll get perhaps 99 potatoes that are all 99% like their parent russet plant, but with slight variability in size or color or starch content?

Inquiring minds want to know.

It depends greatly on the overall general make up. I cant fully answer... but I know from hanging out on tom wagners forum for awhile, that it seems like there are general trends or phenotypes.... for instance I got short season TPS seeds for various colors from him.... hes got hordes of general traits in his genepools, but exact traits wont be known until you grow them.

always desirable though.... for the record, he does both from TPS and from tubers, and he de viruses his own, which takes some work, but can be done.

Ive seen him elaborate on different ways to manage them long term a few times, and he seems to recomend doing both for long term maintenance of your potatoes, both going from TPS, and de virusing the most desirable ones.... he collects the desirable ones, and grows TPS out of those as well.... which gives you closer to a general range of traits as I understand it....

seed potatoes... are potato tubers used for starting plants. really though its more like a bulb I guess...

potato seeds are actual seeds of the potato plants, generally referred to as TPS- true potato seeds.

  for someone truly interested in this, you might try "tom wagner forum" in a search. hes a potato breeder, who is likely to be able to give much more clarity on these subjects, although Im not convinced anyone fully understand this issue.

An interesting question:  Does the virus live on, or in the tuber?
Many tomato and pepper growers soak their seeds in rubbing alcohol prior to planting in order to kill pathogens.  I do not use rubbing alcohol, as it is a manufactured chemical (that oxidizes into acetone).  Instead, I buy a cheap Vodka for the same purpose.  If the virus lives on the tuber, rather than within the tuber, a quick dip in Vodka prior to planting might be a means of breaking the cycle.  Just a thought.

John Polk wrote:
An interesting question:  Does the virus live on, or in the tuber?
Many tomato and pepper growers soak their seeds in rubbing alcohol prior to planting in order to kill pathogens.  I do not use rubbing alcohol, as it is a manufactured chemical (that oxidizes into acetone).  Instead, I buy a cheap Vodka for the same purpose.  If the virus lives on the tuber, rather than within the tuber, a quick dip in Vodka prior to planting might be a means of breaking the cycle.  Just a thought.

My understanding was it is on, not in. but not positive. I would of guessed someone would try that or something similar, as it would of been cheaper then culturing it in a lab. but then again perhaps its just good business for that type of lab. or Perhaps by the time you kill it, the potatoe dies to? that would be a great question for Tom wagner I guess.