Matt Todd

Rocket Scientist
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since Apr 25, 2019
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Always a backyard gardener, now expanding into permaculture!
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Northwest Missouri
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Recent posts by Matt Todd

A low tech solution may be roof snow cleats. My long north-facing roof would collect snow and ice that would sluff off in a big icy mess over the gutters. To prevent this, I bought a box of Snow Guard cleats that screw onto the roof about 2 feet up from the edge. This holds the bulk of the snow and ice up there so it can slowly melt and flow into the gutters, rather than slide into them all at once. No issues since installed.

And as a bonus, they were essential in giving me footing to install a chimney for a rocket mass heater!
10 hours ago

thomas rubino wrote:
Shorty is just a wonderful addition to the awesome first-generation Batchboxes.



Indeed! And the "no thermal runaway" with Shorty is an excellent new feature. On the second burn I still didn't have a full firebox just yet (in the spirit of taking it slow and letting materials dry out.) But as the burn went on, I wanted to add one more log for the cold evening ahead. Shorty graciously took it in stride and calmly consumed it.

Last time I tried that in my DSR2 things got real scary real fast as it flew into runaway mode. Shorty has truly tamed the power of flame.
2 days ago
Second burn was an absolute dream! Perfect draft, easy start-up. I pushed her harder with more wood load and had no issues.
Back wall bricks in the core exhaust hot-spot made it to 185 dF on the exterior. Long wall bricks 140 dF.
Pretty soon I’ll have the confidence to just load it, light it, and walk away.
2 days ago
Years of practice, study, and asking lots of questions have finally led to my first indoor RHM build!
She’s a single skin, top-venting bell with bypass powered by a 6 inch Shorty core.
For the core build, see: https://permies.com/t/368044/Shorty-Core-Oven-Build-Test

The goal is to heat this centralized location in the house. The living room was an addition to the house, so there was an old window hole that I re-opened to pass heat through. A cozy L shaped seating area will be added against the long wall, which is why the firebox faces out of the narrow end.  

Sizing
The internal surface area (ISA) is sized for a standard 6 inch batchbox at 8064 sq inches or 56 sq ft (I originally had different core plans.) So technically it’s oversized since Shorty wants 15% less ISA, but knowing I would have a bypass, I proceeded with this size.  Exterior is 56 inches long AND high, 32 inches wide.

Materials
It's around 1800 lbs of bricks, another 1000 in concrete, and 200 in misc mortar other materials. Probably around 3500 lbs including the core. The first step was adding jack-posts and sistering floor joists in this corner of the basement to make extra sure the weight would not be an issue. A single jack-post is rated for over 10,000 lbs, so I feel very confident with support.

The “pad” below is build with air channels. The idea is that the stove will heat the wall heat shields and the air behind them will rise. The air channels provide a source for cool air that will warm, rise, and convect out into the room. Its made of Allura concrete board. Also helps spread out the weight.

My use of concrete block in the walls may cause some controversy. Concrete blocks goes up faster than brick. They’re much cheaper. And this low in the bell does not expose them to any damaging heat. I parge coated the inside of the block layers with refractory mortar, which was likely unnecessary. As you’ll see, bell air temps at the bottom do not get much over 100 dF. All this saved me time, money, and having to over-order bricks.

The clay bricks themselves are “jumbo” from Pacific Clay via Home Depot. We really liked the brown color and the ability to get 2 small pallets delivered greatly reduced handling and hassle.

The chimney system is all Supervent brand from Menards. Double wall black stove pipe converts to stainless steel double wall insulated Class A stove pipe at the ceiling transition. Exterior chimney (not pictured) follows all the height and support rules.

All the insulation is ceramic fiber alternative from Lynn Manufacturing. This is an important point because this material does not have the health risks of standard ceramic fiber. It costs only a bit more. And I have a whole lot of it involved in gasketing the core, surrounding the oven, covering the bell roof, and stuffing around all the ceiling bricks (not pictured.) I considered adding some on the back wall that takes the highest heat from the core exhaust, but with 21 inches of space to dissipate and a stainless steel T blocking the path, I felt safe. If I see any cracking I can always add this later.

8 thermocouples are built in. Chimney, oven, high bell air, low bell air, ceiling mass, and 3 more down the wall mass. I like data. Also why I bought a cheap thermal imager for my phone.

This was NOT a cheap build. I invested heavily in good materials to get it right the first time (hopefully.) I wanted it to look good and work well as a one time investment to lower my especially expensive rural electric co-op bill that usually costs $300 a month in winter (electric-only heat.) Not sure on the return on investment timeline but the furnace did not run at all on burn day so that's a good sign!

First burn
Yes, it’s mid March. I’m WAY behind the heating season. Partly because of another project and partly because I’m slow at new things. The bell alone took me 5 weeks (I’d never laid a brick before) while the core took me even longer (I’d never welded before.) But with a sudden cold front on the way, I rushed to finish the thing just in time to test it against a blizzard. Conditions were not ideal with 50mph wind gusts. But taking so long to build gave the bell time to dry, and building the chimney with proper materials to the specified height all meant I was able to fight through the wind with only a couple smoke-back moments. Otherwise, no smoke leaks! Hint: if you open a window on the windward side of your house, the increased air pressure blowing in counteracts the wind trying to blow down the chimney. Under normal conditions, start-up should be much easier.

Conclusion
After one burn, I’m sold! 3500 lbs of mass heated to an average of 120 degrees in a short burn with so little wood is a no-brainer. And the infrared heat it puts off is oddly satisfying to feel, even from across a room. The oven reads relatively low on air temp but the oven floor temp is closer to 500. There will be some learning curve and maybe a wire rack or some pizza stone to get used to cooking with it. Over the summer I will build seating  and also plan to finish the exposed concrete block with lime wash or cob. There will also be some decorative trim here and there so the ends of the radiation shield are hidden. I’ll do a follow up post after I get more work done. Many thanks to all the builders out there who donate their time to answering questions, especially Peter van den Berg and Thomas Rubio!!!
3 days ago

John Wilkinson wrote:Hi Glenn,
My desire to have the cob is significant partly due to aesthetics.
If I were to use concrete pavers are you saying I could mask them with a layer of cob?



Masking concrete block is exactly what I'll be doing this week. I also want to use cob, but that will come later in the season when things warm up. In the meantime, I don't want to look at blocks in my dining room so I'll be applying a product called lime wash. It bonds with the concrete but keeps open pores (unlike paint) which should make it still receptive to cob later on. If I like the lime wash look, I might even skip the cob!

There are recipes out there to make your own. I'm cheating and buying a ready made version from Lowes.
1 month ago

Rico Loma wrote:Matt , could you please give details about the 3 different types of wool listed here? Not just origin materials, but do they differ in technique of 'spinning' or manufacturing the blanket?   I feel a bit confused with part of the conversation.

Also you mention satanite as a method to seal or coat the wool surface.  Is this similar to treatment with water glass, and does any treatment have safe lasting effects,  in your opinion?



I couldn't tell you about the manufacturing process. All I know with certainty is that there's two broad categories: ceramic fiber blanket and ceramic fiber alternative. The first containing fibers that are lung hazardous and carry a cancer warning, and the "alternative" (mostly made by Lynn Manufacturing) is safer and does not have a hazard warning.

Waterglass (sodium silicate) is the first step in treatment of ceramic fiber (or alternative) products to "rigidize" them. It also helps to bind the fibers but does not increase overall durability.
THEN step two would be a refractory coating to add a hard outer layer using Satanite or one of the various other refractory coatings like Heat Guard which really seals the fibers in and makes the blanket or board you're coating more durable.

These are products intended for the forge industry but we are able to take advantage of them in rocket stove building. This is my first time using Satanite. It' rated for 3200dF and the highest temps we see in a riser are around 2100dF so I have no doubts that it will last just fine. The only time you might need re coating is if you use it in the firebox where wood abrasion might scratch at it over time.
1 month ago

Scott Weinberg wrote:
Mineral wool or not, I will agree with Fox James 100% about Microscopic fibers.



Right you both are. No wool in the cook box for me. If I want it cooler, I'll add an adjustable air vent.
I did mount a piece of ceramic fiber alternative baffle board to the inside of the oven door for insulation though. I coated it in satanite so that not even "safe" fibers can escape.

I appreciate all the comments on this thread. They definitely steered me in the right direction to a functional oven!

Documented here:
https://permies.com/t/368044/Shorty-Core-Oven-Build-Test
1 month ago

Cristobal Cristo wrote:Good job Matt!
Are you going to cover the slit in the floor (that exposes T-bar part) when you build your heater inside?



Yes, in fact the floor needs to be half an inch higher. I just didn't have the material yet so I built up the back of the firebox with some insulation (ceramic fiber alternative) to smooth out the transition into the port. And stuffed the middle gap too. Only for the test of course.

I'm going to get some ceramic tiles to line the floor for a very low cost bottom wear layer.
1 month ago

Coydon Wallham wrote:Would an oven like that have some sort of active temperature control?



Nothing precise, which is why the goal was to hit an acceptable range around 400ish with materials alone. Just to be in the ballpark of a baking temperature. That said, if it errs on the side of too hot I can add an adjustable vent to the oven door to release heat. To maintain temperature, add more wood. Which is something this core tolerates better than previous designs.
1 month ago

Peter van den Berg wrote:
The deviation from the airframe design might play up when the core is really, really hot.



I appreciate the notes Peter! Knowing this was not built to your tested specs, I was careful to build in a way that could be changed later if needed. I'll keep an eye out for struggles at high temps. While I don't have a testo, I did get a thermocouple and many probes so I can monitor multiple points. My threshold isn't as tall as yours, but I did leave an inch of airframe above the firebox floor to hold the ash in.  
1 month ago