permaculture smack down: Willow Feeders - Dec 28th 2024 - 10AM Mountain time

Gonna use this block of "what is a willow feeder" as a starting point for the recording today

To understand willow feeders, consider the alternatives.

A septic tank and drain field mixes all the poop, and greywater together, then dumps it into a tank where all the sinkers sink and floaties float.  Organic matter breaks down in time. The average septic tank is pumped every four years.  If you do a good job caring for what goes into the septic tank, you can go decades.  

The watery layer is a sort of poop koolaid that goes to the drainfield which is placed about 18 inches below the ground level.  There is a lot of bacterial activity that eats up the poopy bits from the poop koolaid, all year long.  It does a pretty good job.  But not a perfect job. Some poop koolaid makes it to the ground water supply.   Which is why when there is enough population density, it is time to get everybody switched over to a sewage treatment plant.

The missoula sewage treatment plant, like most, collects poop, greywater, and a whole lot of questionable things

[Unwanted paints, herbicides, laundry bleach, powerful soaps and detergents, household toxins, industrial toxins, industrial waste (both legal and ilegal), children's toys going on a magical adventure, "flushable" wipes, feminine hygiene products, dental floss, kitty litter, condoms, cotton balls, cigarette butts, gum, unwanted "legal evidence"]

It also contains a heavy dose of pharmaceuticals that made it through the people that need pharmaceuticals.

Everything is stirred up into a slurry, and screened - this separates the garbage from the sewage.  Garbage [like flushable wipes, some TP, feminine hygiene products, plastics, etc.] goes to the landfill.  The rest goes to settling ponds. After 24 hours the floaters and sinkers go to a composting facility and the remaining poop koolaid goes past a UV light and is released into the river.



Since I am bonkers about gardening, my attempt at this sort of thing is going to involve gardening.  

[Pathogen: For a few ailments, a person's poop can have bits of that sickness in the poop that can make other people sick.]    If 4% of all people poop out pathogens, lets assume that a sick person is pooping in every system.

Composting toilets starts with a mixture of poop, toilet paper and sawdust.  The pile gets hot in the middle due to the composting process - often exceeding 140 degrees which makes that part of the pile sterile!  [Yay!  Ding dong the pathogens are dead!] ... In the middle.   ... The stuff on the outside sides of the pile didn't get hot enough and still contain pathogens.  Advocates for this technique encourage turning the pile frequently in an insulated container so everything (hopefully) gets hot enough at some point.  

When done well, the final product is a high quality compost that smells like good soil and is gardener's gold.  

Some efforts at this that involve an open pile outdoors.   During the composting process, can a fly land on the pile, touch a pathogen, and then fly over to somebody's food and make them sick?   And if it rains, are fresh pathogens driven down into the groundwater?  Further, most of the piles I have seen are either not turned, or turned only once - this makes me think that most of the contents never reached a hot enough temperature.  

But here is another angle about composting in general that has *gardeners* divided.  

Start with 100 pounds of compostable materials.   Turn it several times.   When it is done, you have about 10 pounds of magnificent compost.  Where did the rest of it go?  The water went into the ground or into the atmosphere.  The carbon and nitrogen went into the atmosphere. [our air is 78% nitrogen and xxx% carbon dioxide]  But the carbon and the nitrogen are the very things we desperately want in our soils to make our growies happy!

I want to come up with a solution that is safer when it comes to pathogens, and brings more carbon and nitrogen to my growies.  

An interesting thing about pathogens ...  99% of them die in about two months. [99% in two months 99.999% in six months     99.9999999999% in two years] And is quite safe in two years.   [Faster in a dry environment.]

As it turns out, a dry environment stops the composting action.

So I want to dry it out and set it aside for two years.  I also want to keep it from getting onto the ground too early and keep flies out of it.  

So we put it in a 32 gallon container with a lid.  The lid fits well enough that flies cannot get in, but air can move in and out.   As each day warms up, the air inside expands so the moist gasses are pushed out.  And as it cools at night, dry air is drawn in.


After two years, we have rich, pathogen free fertilizer.  It would be completely safe to put on a veggie garden.  But just to make sure that nobody gets weird about human poop and food, let's stick to using it on something non-food.  [Willow trees are crazy hungry for this fertilizer!]


This material is not a waste, but a valuable resource.  I call all of this "the willow feeder system." Safer than a sewage treatment plant.  Cheaper and scalable too.

some points to touch on:

why you might want to NOT compost

 - compost koolaid goes to the aquifer - ick!
 - carbon and nitrogen go up into the atmosphere
 - compost is a lot of work!
 - gardening and homesteading done really well leads to a lack of compostable materials

poop beasts

 - most trees cannot handle such large nutrient loads
 - willow tree
 - poplar
 - cottonwood
 - bamboo

outhouse

  - really bad in flood zones
  - sends lots of poop koolaid to the aquifer
  - flies!

poop cooker

  - uses a lot of energy

poop composter (or worms or BSFL)

  - with two really big containers, you could, possibly, go forever
  - water, N and C go into the air

humanure

  - empty two or more times per week
  - most compost piles are weak
         o poop koolaid to the groundwater
         o not all pathogens are broken down
         o flies

willow feeder

  - flies controlled at all stages
  - pathogens gone in three months, but we go two years just to make sure      
  - candy fed to willows in the spring to ensure nothing goes to ground water

dry outhouse

  - on top of a mound, surrounded by willow trees and other poop beasts
  - pit
  - nearby mulch pit for urine - also surrounded by willow trees (maybe nettles, rhubarb and bamboo?)

sawdust v wood ash

mulch pit

  - art ludwig is emphatic in favor of mulch pits

the willow feeders we have here now

  - the chateau de poo
        o three months to build
        o two rounds of improvements
        o the trombe wall could use an overhaul
        o two holes and one spare can
 
  - willow bank
        o two days to build
        o seven rounds of improvements
        o two holes and a spare can
        o currently solar, but i think a trombe wall would be better
        o marbles

  - willowonka
        o two weeks to build
        o roundwood
        o skids replaced
        o one hole and two spare cans
        o bigger gap between can and seat
        o raised floor

  - cooper pooper (indoors)
        o
        o
        o

  - stephen's not quite done willow feeder
        o
        o
        o

the willow candy warehouse


The need for the tube in the can, plus about 4 to 6 inches of sawdust at the bottom

winter stalagmites!

Contemplate:  you have decided to paint.  How do you clean your painting gear?

Brings a whole new meaning to "own your shit"

moon box

shark week

chateu de poo https://permies.com/wiki/25481/willow-feeder-wheelie-bin-pooper

willow bank https://permies.com/w/willow-feeder

willowonka https://permies.com/t/65018/willow-feeder-willowonka-roundwood-timber

cooper pooper https://permies.com/t/266929/indoor-willow-feeder-Cooper-Cabin

shark week https://permies.com/t/37417/personal-care/shark-week-pads-tampons-cups

the tube and sawdust

the current signage in each willow feeder

starting in a few minutes

Has anyone looked at the average volume per use, to enable an estimate for how long it will take to fill a container of a particular size?  Of course one would need to factor in the volume of sawdust type of material as well.

Happening now.

Whether it’s called a “bog” or a “willow feeder”, or other name…it’s gotta honor certain rules that help it work best.
Things like air circulation/venting, fast-drain-away of liquids, worms, cover material, etc., are keys.
The rules are fairly simple, & the goal of sewage “going away” can be achieved in many different ways.
But if done wrong, can cause a beached-whale of an ugly mess!

I’ve done a bunch of looking at what makes a viable composting system for black or gray water, for over 40 years—& had experiences with outhouses & cesspits, much longer than that. (I got some stories…)
The thing that spikes fear in regulatory agents, is “coliform bacteria” (that’s another way to say, “this sh!t can harm you!”)
Usually, they mean the anaerobic bacteria that thrive in a closed septic system.
All septic systems are anaerobic the minute the lids are closed over the ports, because that deprives the system of oxygen.  

The very best add-on system I’ve come across in over 40 years of looking, has been the one hooked-up to a Massachusetts farmhouse’s upstairs, old, high-water-use flush toilet, as described in the “Solviva” book:  
       https://openlibrary.org/books/OL8532620M/Solviva
This can be used without digging a hole; & can contain enuf effluent to avoid coliforms contaminating the ground & water tables as it is safely processed by the system, for an average family.
It’s a great fit for sensitive areas with high water tables or fragile environments, & allows folks to use it without even knowing they are flushing to a composting system.
And, she discusses how worms—like red wigglers used as fishing bait, actually abate coliforms, without the compost ever reaching heat-sterilization temps—just keep those worms happy!
Her system routinely handled family & friends, & occasional on-site seminars with up to 40 people, I think….& that was only using half the bin for a year!
It does require some checking & maintenance, to make sure components all keep working right…but far less than most compost toilets—& no “visuals” to gross-out city slickers.
But, the septic system industries & permitting agents pushing costly engineered septic systems, fought her designs, despite plenty of data & science supporting the efficacy.

Regular Septic systems need to be properly designed & maintained.  
In our modern world, with tens of thousands of chemical compounds everywhere, maintaining septic systems well, is harder to do.  Many chemical compounds kill-off the bacteria & worms needed to compost the solids.  Toilet paper, feminine products, etc., have chemicals in them.  So do most commercially made cleaning products—so, adaptions need made.

The minute lids are put over the tank ports, the tank turns anaerobic—those germs grow without oxygen, & if the system leaks, those can go everywhere underground, polluting.  
That’s been the ongoing problem in septic systems.
Yet, the septic industry has only pushed for more & more high-tech engineering—very costly, & much nuisance to live with, cuz the alarms go off randomly & often. & those are several thousand$ more costly than simple gravity septic systems.
A septic tank can be hybridized with constructed wetland planter containers instead of a leach field.

There IS One kind of add-on system for septic systems that can help these be more effective, & stop coliforms from migrating thru the ground.  
These bubble air into the septic tank, & add aerobic cultures.  
The bubbling air encourages growth of good aerobic bacteria, which causes extinction of bad anaerobes.
Aerobes don’t migrate thru the ground.  
Aerobes munch-thru the solid wastes in the septic tank & drain field, which greatly reduces need for pump-outs (our neighbor just had to get an emergency pump-out, late on Christmas Day—imagine the bill for THAT!?😳) or rebuilds of systems.  
A good bubbler system can prevent need for septic system replacements, by simply using those good aerobes to bubble-thru & clean out old, clogged systems.   A bubbler pump can run on solar.
Better the bacteria doing the job, than us, or our wallets… right? 😉

Whatever you call your waste system…one key is separating solids from liquids, if for no other reason that to control the stenches caused mostly by urine.  

There’s a small company in UK, that makes ceramic separators, some are hand-painted, unique—“Shits & Roses”, I think..  
   https://urineseparator.com/
The model with a lip to curve-over the rear bucket, prevents leaks between bucket & liquid drain.
No doubt, there are others making these kinds by now?
We bot a large stainless steel farm bucket from a farm supply store, to put one of these on.  

There are multiple ways to configure a bucket system.
Bucket systems used indoors, really require a vent…..& a drain. The bigger of a storage barrel used, the less carrying of urine containers.  A barrel configured similarly to a gravity septic plumbing, that drains around the yard to water plants, makes that part of the system kinda automatic, nearly indefinitely.  Graywater drain to help dilute the urine, can help.

I’m slowly transforming a small hall closet into a tiny guest powder room.  
Plans include running the liquids out to a buried barrel, & a drain line from that to run that around perimeter to water & fertilize shrubs out front.  
Knowing how minerals in urine become hard plaques in containers & pipes, either the system must get flushed with water to rinse it to prolong use-life, OR, ya gotta design it to allow easy replacement of the containers & pipes.  
  The house gutter will bypass the urine barrel, to shunt rainwater thru the drain line to dilute urine from the barrel, similarly pumped like a gravity septic, so that doses into the line as more enters.  
 The master bath vent is on the other side of the closet wall, so, using Twinwall polycarbonate instead of drywall, will let a bit of window light into the closet, & a vent tube can join that vent thru that wall.  
Or, a vent tube with its own fan, can be run under the floor with the drain pipe, & out the foundation. I could mount a black ABS vent pipe up the gable end wall, & sun would cause that to draw air, without a fan.

One bucket system we used at a remote location, used a couple 5-gal. buckets.  
Did not have a separator lid then,  So, had to figure how to let the liquid drain out fast.
I installed a drain spigot near the base of each, that could quick-connect to a drain pipe to carry liquids to a barrel outside to age it—it becomes a very good nitrogen fertilizer after several months.  
A fine-mesh stainless steel filter was placed over the drain inside the bucket, & caulked in place—could easily use a sink strainer for that.  The more common the parts, the easier & less costly to fix later.
A drain bag for the solids was placed under the rear seat hole.  That plus the fine-screen stainless steel filter, kept the bucket from getting soggy.  
It’s possible to get poly-woven bags to hold the solids—those can drain quickly, & can get carried out to a compost worm bin to finish.
Keys:  vent pipe & fast drainage of liquids.  & worms, if you’re up for that—tho, worms in buckets do tend to try to migrate up bucket sides.  
But worms in a protected compost bin, do great….

A 9-bucket worm compost system was also described by Solviva (that could as well be woven poly bags).
She came to Olympia, WA, to demo building that system at a B&B here.  
There was a room off the back garden, where the active-use bucket was housed, & a container of cover material.
These buckets could have been improved by having drains to a tank for the urine—they had not setup a urinal in there yet, when I saw it.
It seemed numerous visitors avoided trying it, because, users were all generically told to pee elsewhere than in the bucket—but there was no private “elsewhere”, & standing or squatting over the floor drain to pee was not feasible for many, & would have been unsanitary.
There was a big bin in a greenhouse in the garden behind the house:  bin was about 8’x3’x3’…big enuf to fit 8 buckets on its long surface. (8 buckets on the bin, & 1 bucket in-use)
It was filled with loose, highly drainable potting-type mix (could be detritus from forest floor, or coconut coir, etc)…& worms!  
The bucket in-use for this system, held everything, & needed good cover materials…sawdust, pine bedding, forest floor dirt & leaves, etc., which prevented stench & flies.
When one bucket was about 1/2+ filled, it got placed, upside-down, on top of the dirt in the greenhouse bin, & a clean bucket put into use.  Repeat.  
By the time the last bucket was put on the bin, the 1st bucket had been cleaned out—seriously—CLEANED out by the worms in the bin, & was Ready to be used again.  
Bonus:  NOone had to wash crappy buckets!  Just haul them to the bin, & give that treat to the worms in the bin.
             Minimal handling!

One guy in UT, emptied his septic tank, removed its concrete lid, & built a greenhouse window top for the tank.  
In one corner was a tall, screened 6” air-intake pipe; on the opposite corner was a tall 6” screened air-outlet pipe, painted black, set at a different height inside the tank.  
I think he eventually added a solar fan to boost air circulating thru the tank.  The windows used to lid the tank, could open to access clean-out when necessary (every several years??)
His flush toilet still sent effluent to that tank. No “visuals” to upset visitors.
Except, instead of the tank festering liquid nasties, the flushes got dehumidified fairly fast from air flow, while the glass top helped heat that tank.  
That system works very well for one or two people living in his tiny cabin.  
UT gets cold winters & hot summers, but the glass top solar gain, plus the natural composting heat, & the air circulation, helped compost process keep going, greatly reducing the solids’ mass.  
This system requires little maintenance, & allows using a flush toilet.

Seasonal weather changes affect your composting efforts, too.  Be prepared!  
That might look like extra buckets or bags, adding a heat source to the compost area, more cover materials, different cover materials, more venting, etc.
If your manufactured wetland lives where there’s rain, it’ll need protected from rain swamping the wetland.

The most effectively automated compost toilet design, has been being used in Africa…it looks like a toilet indoors.
It gets permanent-installed, thru & under the house wall.
Each time the seat lid is opened or closed, it ratchets a large Acme screw, which carries the solids gradually out the back end of the thing, to a bin in-ground, outside, so it’s accessible for clean-outs.  The deeper the back bin, the less frequent the cleanouts.
The system has a wide diameter vent pipe with a top-fan, to keep air venting the system.
  https://www.esan.co.za/avada_portfolio/composting-toilets/
These now have separators, I think.  
Used to be, had to order a whole shipping container of them, to get the price down.

Brings whole new depths of meanings, to “taking care of your sh!t”!

I missed the call!  Bummer!

What can be used instead of sawdust?  I have very little access to saw dust.  I do have access to invasive plants like tamarisk and seasonals like wild mustard.  Can I chop that up and put it in?  Too green?

Also, I live in a very dry climate where temps reach 120 in the summer...will my Willow feeder explode?

Jen Anderson wrote:I missed the call!  Bummer!

What can be used instead of sawdust?  I have very little access to saw dust.  I do have access to invasive plants like tamarisk and seasonals like wild mustard.  Can I chop that up and put it in?  Too green?

Also, I live in a very dry climate where temps reach 120 in the summer...will my Willow feeder explode?

The cover material for composting toilets, needs to be dry/brown, never green/fresh.  
Or a nice loose peat/dirt.
Helps to have worms in it (red wrigglers, like used for fishing)(these abate bad germs).
We’ve used forest floor debris, dried leaves, etc.  
For processing dried weeds & trimmings for compost cover, a chipper can quickly chop lots of it to store in a dry place.
The weeds might spread seeds—but If you pick the plants ..before.. they bloom, it limits spreading seeds.
With very hot summers, the weeds & prunings should dry fast.

If dirt can be recirculated from your property, & dry leaves, can mix that as cover material.
Or, can buy big bales of sawdust, pine shavings, straw, coconut coir, pellets, etc. from farm supply stores, which work well, are low cost (should be), & one bail can last 2 people a fairly long time.

The hot summers, tho, can cause compost toilets to dry out quicker, so, fluids filtering thru the solids (depends on your design of compost toilet) can be a good thing.