• Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic
permaculture forums growies critters building homesteading energy monies kitchen purity ungarbage community wilderness fiber arts art permaculture artisans regional education skip experiences global resources cider press projects digital market permies.com pie forums private forums all forums
this forum made possible by our volunteer staff, including ...
master stewards:
  • Carla Burke
  • John F Dean
  • Timothy Norton
  • Nancy Reading
  • r ranson
  • Jay Angler
  • Pearl Sutton
stewards:
  • paul wheaton
  • Tereza Okava
  • Andrés Bernal
master gardeners:
  • Christopher Weeks
gardeners:
  • Jeremy VanGelder
  • M Ljin
  • Matt McSpadden
 
author
Posts: 24
7
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Barbara Schickler wrote:Welcome Owen,
I look forward to your ideas on making meadows, turning lawn into areas that provide a sustainable area for insects and birds. My dilemma is that I have an invasive grass, that I am trying to get rid of , not using pesticides which  I am against, so I put black plastic down for 9months , pulled it up and put down cardboard and covered it with mulch and hope to reclaim this area by planting blueberry bushes and a few fruit trees. Wish me luck!



Good luck!  Getting out the undesired species from the targeted area and starting with a blank slate certainly tends to get the best results in the long run so you are heading in the right direction.... In the area you've cleared out you could even plant some wildflower seeds or landscape plugs (because of the presence of mulch, plugs would work even better than seed) to grow amongst the trees and shrubs you are planting.
 
Owen Wormser
author
Posts: 24
7
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Donald Ray wrote:Hello and welcome Owen,

I have a yard with bermudagrass and johnsongrass and a bunch of weeds. I was following a rancher that claims planting "cover crops" will remove weeds? Does your experiences address that and is it really true there is a way to get rid of these two grasses?

don



In theory, this is absolutely good advice. In practice though, it only works if what you plant is able to establish fully, grow thickly, and as tall or taller than the grasses you wish to eliminate. In short, for this approach to be effective, the species you plant have to be able to outcompete the weeds.... Only when the unwanted grasses and weeds are overtaken by healthy, desirable, competition will they truly disappear. This can be tricky to make happen effectively which is why I always use organic weed control methods to entirely eliminate lawn grass before planting anything else.
 
Owen Wormser
author
Posts: 24
7
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Karen Douglass wrote:Awesome, welcome, Owen! I'm trying to acheive that goal in my back yard (inner city). Chickens paved the way (a-hem, e.g. decimated lawn for me) to stsrt this adventure. How do I get rid of what is left of city lawn-grass? That is my new weed; grows taller than the flowers etc. My nemesis. Do you have a good way to get rid of that type? Live in MN, probably a bluegrass mix. Thank you.



My recent response to Donald Ray's question applies to your situation as well... Check that answer out and it should give you some more perspective on what can work for you in this situation.
 
Owen Wormser
author
Posts: 24
7
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Michael Heath wrote:Hello, Owen.
I am interested in finding about how to combat the mow every week mind-set.
Thanks,
Michael Heath



Combating that mindset usually requires outreach and education.  Basically, people need to know how valuable a meadow can be ecologically as well as aesthetically. It is also helpful if they know how incredibly burdensome lawns are on the environment. Most people are ignorant about both angles.....

Broaching this subject is often tricky because the mow once a week mindset can almost be like a religion for some folks. Those people can be very difficult to convince but most other folks will at least hear you out. When trying to win people over, it is important to remember that you can catch more flies with honey, so being friendly and conversational is important.  Except for the most dogmatic lovers of lawn, people are generally open to hearing about other possible approaches if it comes to them in a nonjudgmental way that gives them the freedom to decide on their own. Aside from talking to people directly, pamphlets and signs can be helpful in getting that information out there.
 
Posts: 1
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Hi Owen!  Excited to explore 😁
 
Posts: 8
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Thanks for the reply. I’m not sure I can get my library to buy it if it’s U.S.specific. I don't suppose you could recommend a european focused similar book?
P.s If a copy of the book did find it’s way,it would be housed in a public library and lent out
 
Posts: 7
1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Thats my opinion. Ifr i will maintain it I must be able to eat it.  I just recently went with a few flowers other than marigolds and tiger lilies. my front yard is very structured with raised beds.  The land is low lying and floods when it rains but drains within 2 hours of the rain stopping, I'm hoping I can plant something I dont have to maintain all around my raised beds meadowish...
 
Posts: 607
57
5
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Oh! I need this book!

I've got more than 3 acres of lawn I'd very much like to stop cutting altogether, but my wife doesn't like it to look "unkept".
 
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Hi Owen. Thank you for your contribution here. We live in a place with lots of ticks. So far my main deterrent of them has been to maintain a very short lawn around the house and between our garden spaces. I would love to have more meadow, but I worry that we would get more ticks. Any advice? Thank you!
 
Posts: 4
Location: Warsaw, Poland
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Owen Wormser wrote:
Scoring into a lawn using what's known as a drill seeder can help get seeds in contact with soil, increasing the odds they establish. Of course you can sprinkle seeds onto a lawn but that can be more of a crap shoot.  The thing with most lawns is that they are usually comprised of cool season grasses which spread thickly, creating a carpet that can make it difficult for newly sprouted meadow plants to establish because of the initial competition of the existing grass.  

I usually try to match plants to the existing environment, so in a very sandy area, I'd focus on species that truly like those conditions; unfortunately, that narrows the possibilities significantly if you're focusing on meadow plants (it's dune and desert species that usually can grow well on sand).  Because the lack of organic matter and the inability of sand to hold water, growing a meadow in this type of environment can be prohibitive.



Thanks for advise, Owen.
For the existing lawn, sowing in some kind of fissures is what I imagined being the best option.
However for the sandy yard I'm afraid I need to add some organic matter (compost) to be able to get sprouts. I've experimented this year with seeds from Balkan dry meadows. Will wait until next year's spring to see if anything comes out. Meanwhile I will study some of my native species for future use.
BTW, I've put my questions also in a separate thread (also adding photos) but you don't have to deal with it, having answered here :)
 
Posts: 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Welcome Owen!  I am so excited about your book!  We live in West Central Texas, right where 4 different regions converge and xeriscaping is recommended.   We had been woundering how we could create a place that is natural, beautiful, and pleasing to the neighbors and city officials and it sounds like your book with your knowledge is just what we need!  
Thank you,
Kristie
 
Posts: 3
1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Hi Owen, we are in Zone 8 Southeast Texas with roughly 45+ inches of rain per year and heavy soils. Historically my area was coastal prairie and though the years trees from timber industry or otherwise imported have taken place of this. I have been interested in planting more "useful" trees in my landscape but after learning the historical information of my specific bioregion I am interested in stacking the functions of prairie/meadow into my design potentials as well. I want to get started on identifying species (besides sedges and bahia) and hope to receive your book What other resources would you suggest to look into?
 
Posts: 71
24
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
How do you define a meadow versus a relatively unmanaged grassy area? We chop our field probably 1-2× a year. It's full of grasses, yarrow, clover, dandilion, plantains etc. Is there a management strategy for meadows or fields gone fallow for years?
 
Posts: 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Lawn. Ugh. We suffer with voracious mosquitoes all summer. If we leave the lawn uncut I fear it would be even worse. I have been slowly encouraging the clover and a little purple flower I call creeping Jenny to crowd out the grass. Other ideas?
 
Posts: 2
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Welcome Owen!
I always pictured me running through a meadow as I've read in the books. I look down at my field and it's not grass or a meadow. I hate mowing it, even though I use a rider. Should I aerate it? My only saving grace is that a patch of some kind of daisies or something grew so I mow around it now.
    It needs to be picturesque.
 
pollinator
Posts: 1521
Location: zone 4b, sandy, Continental D
420
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Carol Broadribb wrote:Lawn. Ugh. We suffer with voracious mosquitoes all summer. If we leave the lawn uncut I fear it would be even worse. I have been slowly encouraging the clover and a little purple flower I call creeping Jenny to crowd out the grass. Other ideas?



Actually, quite the opposite: We used to have more mosquitoes but since I have resisted mowing the lawn, we have more pollinators and more birds: That is important to keep the mosquito population down.
The way that mosquitoes populate is by finding a body of water. It can be as small as a saucer, a small pail: Any area where there will be water for 3 days will do.
So after a rain, look around for saucers under pots, plastic containers... anything. Turn it over and empty it. If you have a pond nearby, invite purple martins or other mosquito eaters.
If you have a birdbath, you might want to install a cheap little pump to keep the water trembling.
The clover and the creeping Jenny are much better than blades of grass, but for the mosquitoes, bring in the birds!
 
Posts: 35
Location: Southwestern New Mexico
1
2
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Welcome Owen
I also live in the desert southwest - High Plains at 5500', around 8"/yr mostly July and August and then again January thru March and the driest months April thru May  - so I understand native flowers are limited as you noted. But you made a comment about plants under fruit trees that can mitigate pests and disease. Though working toward a self sustaining system to capture the maximum of our rain, I did put in an irrigation system to get through those really dry times so it might also support some of these other flora. I am trying to fill the space with self sustaining plants with a wide range of root depths that are compatible with chickens and would love to see flowers. What would be your suggestions?
 
steward
Posts: 22266
Location: Pacific Northwest
12860
12
homeschooling hugelkultur kids art duck forest garden foraging fiber arts sheep wood heat homestead
  • Likes 4
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
We have winners!!!

Congratulations!
Eliot Mason
John Suavecito
Clayton High
Julie Reed



We'll be sending the publisher your email addresses--so please keep an eye out in your inboxes for when they contact you!

Bit thanks to Owen for sharing his knowledge with us this week! If you're bummed that you didn't win the book, you can buy it HERE!
 
Owen Wormser
author
Posts: 24
7
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Noel Young wrote:How do you define a meadow versus a relatively unmanaged grassy area? We chop our field probably 1-2× a year. It's full of grasses, yarrow, clover, dandilion, plantains etc. Is there a management strategy for meadows or fields gone fallow for years?



Really a meadow is any area that is dominated by grasses and flowering forbs.  The field you describe qualifies as a meadow...

And to manage old fields, mowing once a year is important. Other than that, the management strategy depends on what your design goals are.  If you want to get lots more flowering plants then it might be worth considering tilling it under and panting anew from seed.  Or you could scatter seed and/or drill seed into the existing field and hope some of those seeds take supplement what's already there.  And even just mowing over time will allow certain meadow species to establish and prosper.
 
Owen Wormser
author
Posts: 24
7
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Nicole Alderman wrote:We have winners!!!

Congratulations!
Eliot Mason
John Suavecito
Clayton High
Julie Reed



We'll be sending the publisher your email addresses--so please keep an eye out in your inboxes for when they contact you!

Bit thanks to Owen for sharing his knowledge with us this week! If you're bummed that you didn't win the book, you can buy it HERE![/quote

Congratulations to the winners.  I've enjoyed commenting here and I hope my input was helpful.  I really appreciate the resource permies.com offers the global community. Ultimately, humanity can create abundance wherever they go, not just scarcity, especially in their interactions with the earth and the natural world.... The permaculture community understands this possibility and hopefully that perspective spreads because this planet wants to be – and is – abundant. Meadows are a simple way to create that abundance, as well as beauty and ecological health, and all without much effort.  Here's to more landscapes like that!

 
Owen Wormser
author
Posts: 24
7
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Zeph Mullins wrote:Hi Owen, we are in Zone 8 Southeast Texas with roughly 45+ inches of rain per year and heavy soils. Historically my area was coastal prairie and though the years trees from timber industry or otherwise imported have taken place of this. I have been interested in planting more "useful" trees in my landscape but after learning the historical information of my specific bioregion I am interested in stacking the functions of prairie/meadow into my design potentials as well. I want to get started on identifying species (besides sedges and bahia) and hope to receive your book What other resources would you suggest to look into?



I would talk to native plant nurseries and/or native seed suppliers in your area or region and ask them what books they recommend for ID and for historical perspective related to the ecology of SE Texas.  That information is too specific for me to point you to the right resources but usually plant people who are immersed in that world already are happy to pass along information like this. This holds true for people in any region and much of the knowledge I've gleaned over the years is through similar avenues.  Good luck.  
 
Owen Wormser
author
Posts: 24
7
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Cécile Stelzer Johnson wrote:

Carol Broadribb wrote:Lawn. Ugh. We suffer with voracious mosquitoes all summer. If we leave the lawn uncut I fear it would be even worse. I have been slowly encouraging the clover and a little purple flower I call creeping Jenny to crowd out the grass. Other ideas?



Actually, quite the opposite: We used to have more mosquitoes but since I have resisted mowing the lawn, we have more pollinators and more birds: That is important to keep the mosquito population down.
The way that mosquitoes populate is by finding a body of water. It can be as small as a saucer, a small pail: Any area where there will be water for 3 days will do.
So after a rain, look around for saucers under pots, plastic containers... anything. Turn it over and empty it. If you have a pond nearby, invite purple martins or other mosquito eaters.
If you have a birdbath, you might want to install a cheap little pump to keep the water trembling.
The clover and the creeping Jenny are much better than blades of grass, but for the mosquitoes, bring in the birds!



Well said. This advice for mosquitos and any other pest problem is excellent. If you have pests, focus on supporting their predators and they will eat most of them! For instance one bat can eat thousands of mosquitos in just one night.  
 
Posts: 7
1
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
This is my first post and I fear I am too late for wisdom from Owen, but perhaps someone else could advise me. I live in suburban Toronto, so cold snowy winters. My front yard is perhaps 40 x 40 feet, so not that large. On one corner is a Norway Maple planted by the city 60 years ago. It now qualifies as an invasive plant, poor thing, but provides wonderful shade that helps keep the house and car cool. Several years ago after endless frustration trying to keep grass happy under the tree, I gave up, bought a bag of white clover watered it and stopped mowing, except once in the fall to mulch up the maple leaves. Each year I let the clover grow as tall as it likes, and the bees and bunnies approve. Some grass shoots up and I will for the benefit of my groomed yard neighbors take clippers to cut the tallest grasses.

My question is how to best enrich the soil and what do I need to begin planting an edible or pollinator garden there. It now feels like the clover is too monoculture and I am missing an opportunity...baby steps. The ground tends to be dry and dusty, although the clover is green and happy. I can’t water it enough to make it moist. I’d like to create a forest, as big a forest as possible on that little piece of earth. I have been given names of native Ontario plants that will grow under the maple canopy. Any other suggestions?
 
Cécile Stelzer Johnson
pollinator
Posts: 1521
Location: zone 4b, sandy, Continental D
420
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Lindy Oconnor wrote:This is my first post and I fear I am too late for wisdom from Owen, but perhaps someone else could advise me. I live in suburban Toronto, so cold snowy winters. My front yard is perhaps 40 x 40 feet, so not that large. On one corner is a Norway Maple planted by the city 60 years ago. It now qualifies as an invasive plant, poor thing, but provides wonderful shade that helps keep the house and car cool. Several years ago after endless frustration trying to keep grass happy under the tree, I gave up, bought a bag of white clover watered it and stopped mowing, except once in the fall to mulch up the maple leaves. Each year I let the clover grow as tall as it likes, and the bees and bunnies approve. Some grass shoots up and I will for the benefit of my groomed yard neighbors take clippers to cut the tallest grasses.

My question is how to best enrich the soil and what do I need to begin planting an edible or pollinator garden there. It now feels like the clover is too monoculture and I am missing an opportunity...baby steps. The ground tends to be dry and dusty, although the clover is green and happy. I can’t water it enough to make it moist. I’d like to create a forest, as big a forest as possible on that little piece of earth. I have been given names of native Ontario plants that will grow under the maple canopy. Any other suggestions?



In one word: bushes. You might be surprised at this but bushes will actually give you the impression that you lot is larger than it is because you will be able to have several "nooks", like garden "rooms". As far as what, the clover was a great idea and your soil is enriched. Medium/dwarf fruit trees might do well there. Ask around and check your neighbors'yards for what grows well there.
Incidentally, you might want to check with the city about bringing down that Norway maple that *they* planted. They may be attached to it. Let them know of your plans and ask them . Perhaps they will have useful suggestions, like what NOT to plant. Water lines? Phone lines? Your Conservation office will be helpful too.
 
Posts: 30
8
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I own and operate Echo Landscapes in Wichita Kansas and have a few clients that want meadow lawns. I've been adding to my list of plants like white clovers, wild aster, Mexican primrose, Swedish ivy, very vinca minor, birdsfoot trefoil, poppy mallow and such. My results are a bit hot and miss and I would love Oren's advice. Thanks for the entry and thank you Oren!
 
Seriously Rick? Seriously? You might as well just read this tiny ad:
Got a New Homestead? Here is What You Need to Know to Before You Start a Homestead
https://permies.com/t/97104/Starting-homestead-strong-foundation
reply
    Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic