Why is permaculture so fragmented even in a game changing crisis?

C Gillis wrote:
Why does this not exist in Permaculture?  I can point to 100 small resources and blogs, but there is not one centralized informational area.

There is no government sanctioned permaculture resource. Just stuff run by the wierdos, to paraphrase Paul above. That scares lots of people off.

This thread seems to be the other side of the “obey me or else” inclination we silly humans display.  It is a desire to be told what to do by “someone who knows.”  An appointed authority that is the ultimate authority. Indeed, someone we could point to and say “obey HER or else!”  This in theory makes my life easier - I don’t need to think, or experiment, or be criticized - I just need to obey.  To join the tribe, drink the cool-aid, build a swale, voila!  You have done permaculture!

To me you start out stating that permaculture is too centralize, and that Bill Mollison leader/centralize version is too hard and you want to see a new different easier one. Isn't that by itself causing me fragmentation.

But lets say we created this "idealize" perfect version in English for USA, what about Chile/New Zealand/Nigeria/Mongolia, don't we still need to fragment it for them, based on language/climate/cultural norms, etc.

I am going to assume (most likely incorrectly) that you are looking for a popular, easy to understand entry level version of permaculture for folks with 1/10 to 1 acres of land. We do have Gaia's Garden, but it sounds like you want something that is less book based.  Would this version of permaculture cover homeschooling, if so which type is the best. which math book do you recommend for grade 5. Or maybe said version of permaculture will only cover food production. Will it cover flour production and sugar production that is where most of my calories comes from. But I don't think that you would particularly want your new version to focus on that too much. Are you looking for more of a community. As in a local in person group or more online like permies.com. Or do you want video game with permaculture quest?

Even Microsoft doesn't rule the computing world, at the entry level. We still have iphone and andriod and Mac.

I just have a hard time envisioning just 1 university or world government or 1 denomination/religion.

Lif Strand wrote:

Karl Treen wrote:
Instagram: @foodforestcardgame
Web: FoodForestCardGame.com
K-

I LOVE THAT IMAGE! I'd like to share it if I may.  If OK, credit to you or...?

I stole the image and text from @theatomicbinge on Instagram but had to mash it up on Photoshop to make it work as a meme. I gave credit there, but it didn't occur to me to do it here.

So I guess maybe credit both of us?

Thank you!

Tereza Okava wrote:as Karl* implies, the problem is the people.
Because people are political and things are complicated, some folks don't like Rodale, Mercola, electricity, moon phase planting, hunting, vegans, lentils, or Tom Brady, and won't get behind a centralized thing because someone involved in it does something that they can't accept.

Hey Tereza,

Thanks for the vote of confidence! It wasn't all bad, but it certainly made me realize that I didn't have what it takes to run a group like that! I'm better on my own or with a small group of friends.

Have a great summer!

C Gillis wrote:Thanks for the thoughts Karl Treen - some really great nuggets in there. I also give away free seeds and have set up a local seed COOP which I'm growing slowly.

I think "slow" is key. Mine took off a bit faster than I could handle. Our first plant swap had over 40 people. If you can grow slowly, and insist on participation before expansion, you're probably on the right track.

S Bengi wrote:To me you start out stating that permaculture is too centralize, and that Bill Mollison leader/centralize version is too hard and you want to see a new different easier one. Isn't that by itself causing me fragmentation.

But lets say we created this "idealize" perfect version in English for USA, what about Chile/New Zealand/Nigeria/Mongolia, don't we still need to fragment it for them, based on language/climate/cultural norms, etc.

I am going to assume (most likely incorrectly) that you are looking for a popular, easy to understand entry level version of permaculture for folks with 1/10 to 1 acres of land. We do have Gaia's Garden, but it sounds like you want something that is less book based.  Would this version of permaculture cover homeschooling, if so which type is the best. which math book do you recommend for grade 5. Or maybe said version of permaculture will only cover food production. Will it cover flour production and sugar production that is where most of my calories comes from. But I don't think that you would particularly want your new version to focus on that too much. Are you looking for more of a community. As in a local in person group or more online like permies.com. Or do you want video game with permaculture quest?

Even Microsoft doesn't rule the computing world, at the entry level. We still have iphone and andriod and Mac.

I just have a hard time envisioning just 1 university or world government or 1 denomination/religion.

Never said anything was “too hard”, fragmented yes.

I think you can address all of the concerns you mentioned if you want to make it that robust. Rodale Institute seems to cover a wide range of topics around organic - everything from large scale farming to backyard gardens. They offer a resource that is easy to understand but also covers a wide range of topics. I don’t see why a Permaculture resource couldn’t aspire to that

I happen to work in technology, funny you mention that. We have organizations such as the W3schools where you can learn basic html, css, JavaScript and more for free. It’s a great entry point into a career in that field if you are willing to put in the work.

I send to a lot of people who want to dabble in front end programming- they will learn the basics but can move to more advanced techniques if they choose to. It’s all open source too. Check it out https://www.w3schools.com

It’s not the only option out there, but it’s a place for people to get their start if they are interested.

I could see this community coming together to create something like that. It might bring Permaculture to the masses. Right now as I mentioned it looks a bit fragmented.

@C*

To clarify:

What market are you aiming at? What result would you like to see if you were like the Koch Bros. and had bux to spend to get what you want? You know, king of the world. What do you want and WHAT WOULD YOU DO TO GET THINGS THAT WAY?

Blunt questions?  Well, maybe. Maybe not. The thing is, one of the most accurate and effective ways to learn about a situation is to try to get something you want out of it. You are _forced_ (unless you quit) to look straightly at what blocks you and (after trying to go around it)  try to understand it so you can circumvent it and succeed. That is real learning.  But in order to learn in that way, one needs a definable attainable goal and then one needs to start moving and shaking and see what trees fall across your path. The goal is necessary, as it the moving and shaking. Maybe you can do this in a thought experiment - hence the Q's.

Karl sounds like he did this real time, bricks and mortar. And yeah, I think he (think it was Karl) hit the mark: Lots of energy and a thick skin.   Paul is doing this.  Nothing was ever accomplished by being a reasonable person.

I guess one short answer to your original post: There's a RealWorld out there and everything is anchored in it. We are. And IT doesn't move noticeably when you push on it. Not every when you push really really hard. To get anywhere we find where the river flows and go _there_. Not where we "arbitrarily" decide to go. The RealWorld monopolizes most of everybody's attention, 24/7. Even Permie Zealots. Ask Paul how much RealWorld controls his plans and efforts.

This leads to Elliot's problem with "packaging". Packaging is what makes it possible for people, without the time or resources to make themselves gurus in everything, to benefit from massive learning and design by others. It's what makes it possible for the "little woman" (or name your better example) to drive the horseless carriage. The steering wheel, accelerator, power brakes and power steering (not to mention weather proof interior) are a PACKAGE! It takes mind boggling science and engineering and covers it over with pretty fenders, nice interior and doors that open easily and an easy-to-understand way to start it (key) and use it. No degree in chemistry or applied industrial design required. The package truly does "dumb down" what really makes up a car. If it didn't, nobody could drive one.

I'm guessing C* might be looking for a package to make Permakulture usable by people with no real understanding of the details. Nor any wish for such. Do you _really_ want to learn how to reprogram the computer that runs your vehicle? Going with that for a moment, what _would_ people using the Permakulture Package be wanting? Mystical communion with... Something? Ticket to heaven? Bragging rights? Think a moment about the car package. People (most everybody, in fact) drives. Why? Is it because they just get warm and fuzzy when the engine purrs? Is it because they worship Western tech and want to be a little part of it? Well, even though I'm sure there are a few people that get the warm fuzzies and all that, the car has become ubiquitous by providing a huge dollop of power and control to people who drive.

So you want Permies to become a go-to just like a car is the  go-to for anybody in our current  society.  OK. What does Joe Schmoe get from PermiKulture? How are you going to package PermaKulture so that one doesn't need religion, property, goodness, or even honesty to benefit from it? Or at least _think_ you benefit. Miracles of advertising and all that.

Ok. A final thought. C* may be visualizing something slightly less grandiose than world domination. Something like a trade association. That may actually be a real world entity that is w/in reach. Many such do really good work. Eg. the Engineered Wood  Association   ("www.apawood.org") provides really excellent How-To information, specifications, etc which contractors and architects use to do their jobs well. But even a trade organization needs a clear goal, a charter, that stuff. Define PermaKulture. And/or, think (hold on to your seats...) Building Codes!!! Can PermaKulture be orchestrated to form the center of Farming Codes? Or at least a player at the table? Read up on how building codes are created, revised and promulgated. It's kinda like how the national political parties create their platforms. But building codes are hugely valuable and respected. But maybe that one would have to wait until PermaKulture gets its politicians organized.


Regards,
Rufus

Huxley Harter wrote:

C Gillis wrote:
Why does this not exist in Permaculture?  I can point to 100 small resources and blogs, but there is not one centralized informational area.

There is no government sanctioned permaculture resource. Just stuff run by the wierdos, to paraphrase Paul above. That scares lots of people off.

A Government sanctioned resource would not be good.

A collective or cooperative resource from experts with real experience would be ideal.

C Gillis wrote:

Huxley Harter wrote:

C Gillis wrote:
Why does this not exist in Permaculture?  I can point to 100 small resources and blogs, but there is not one centralized informational area.

There is no government sanctioned permaculture resource. Just stuff run by the wierdos, to paraphrase Paul above. That scares lots of people off.

A Government sanctioned resource would not be good.

I agree that it would definitely not be good.

C Gillis wrote:

Daron Williams wrote:I follow a number of permaculture related podcasts and some blogs. One thing I have noticed is that they all are working extra hard right now to help people get started. Some have made free online courses, others have shifted in person events to online and greatly reduced the cost or even made them free and many are creating content that is focused on helping people to get started.

Thanks for the post. Can you share some of those resources? I'd be interested in checking them out and sharing with new growers.

I don't have sites for all the podcasts but here is a new one that I've really been enjoying that I think people just starting out would find interesting.

Permaculture for the Future

It's organized by The San Diego Sustainable Living Institute. They haven't posted a new show in a little while (May 7th was their last one) but there are some good ones. Their Facebook page also has some links to free webinars that people can sign up for.

And if you search for permaculture or homesteading or gardening on apps like Spotify or iTunes or whatever you use to listen to podcasts a bunch of other ones should show up.

There are a ton of blogs out there. I like Tenth Acre Farm and of course I have to mention my own site Wild Homesteading

But permies is a fantastic place for people to come and ask questions if they're just starting out. So many people here spread out all around the world that generally someone will have an answer to even very specific questions. Often you can even find someone with experience in your climate/region.

Karl Treen wrote: I might mention the history of "victory gardens", to see if their eyes light up, but very few do. Only after someone expresses a passionate interest do I wade into the deeper waters of Bill Mollison and Permaculture.

This is beautiful, and a little bit sad!

I also find it frustrating that people are coming back to their old ways, even where infections are not really dropping... but people are not so scared of them anymore... it's especially frustrating when I see my close friends and relatives being still so ignorant, but I guess we just have to accept it. I try to just do my thing and find a way around problems.
I do have positive examples to focus on. I recently created a group about animals in permaculture, and lots of my horse riding friends joined. Now they're planting veggies near their stables.
I'm supporting people who are about to butcher their goats for the first time, and my vegan sister who is learning to pickle foods.
Every time I see someone looking to buy crops directly from farmers, I give them my contacts and also encourage them to grow their own.

There was an interview a while ago, or maybe an ad of one of the regenerative farms, in which someone said, that people don't know how good life can be. So I try to share that too: the delicious crops from my garden (or pictures of them;), the beautiful critters I meet, the weird shapes and forms that grow, the calmness and resilience it shows, when I never really have to water it, the surprise when one plant disappears for some unfortunate reason, but ten other plants emerge out of nowhere.
Some people think that we're just antisocial weirdos, spending all the time in gardens which don't even look "clean" afterwards; while we're more social than many others, actually caring about *everyone*, and knowing that this is where and how you build real meaningful connections. Most people may seem ignorant to this, but I do believe they see it, and will follow, in their own style perhaps.

Huxley Harter wrote: bickering clans

I never see bickering clans, myself.  Except for the occasional person who posts here on permies with some variation of "Permaculture isn't perfect enough to please me," I just see a bunch of people practicing different styles of permaculture and sharing information.  I guess I don't hang out where the bickering clans do.

C Gillis wrote:

Never said anything was “too hard”, fragmented yes.

I think you can address all of the concerns you mentioned if you want to make it that robust. Rodale Institute seems to cover a wide range of topics around organic - everything from large scale farming to backyard gardens. They offer a resource that is easy to understand but also covers a wide range of topics. I don’t see why a Permaculture resource couldn’t aspire to that

I happen to work in technology, funny you mention that. We have organizations such as the W3schools where you can learn basic html, css, JavaScript and more for free. It’s a great entry point into a career in that field if you are willing to put in the work.

I send to a lot of people who want to dabble in front end programming- they will learn the basics but can move to more advanced techniques if they choose to. It’s all open source too. Check it out https://www.w3schools.com

It’s not the only option out there, but it’s a place for people to get their start if they are interested.

I could see this community coming together to create something like that. It might bring Permaculture to the masses. Right now as I mentioned it looks a bit fragmented.

See, this kind of amuses me - I'm also in technology, and the educational space there is possibly more fragmented than Permaculture!  (I'd assume because there's more widespread interest and because there's a lot more money sloshing around.)  I've heard of W3schools but never taken courses there.  But I've taken courses through Coursera, and Lynda, and specific tooling companies, and university extension programs, and...

I don't have a CS degree, which I've done ok without but I do feel that having a structured progression of classes would have made my career better.*  OTOH, Permaculture has that in PDCs!  And PDCs are a) hugely cheaper in time and cash than a 4-year degree, and b) surprisingly probably a lot more uniform than CS degrees, as PDCs are still within a few generations from the OG Mollison/Holmgren model.

You've been very involved with W3schools, it sounds like.  With your own (valid!) critique of permaculture learning, how would you "achieve world domination" for W3schools?  (I don't mean this to sound like a gotcha.  I have this frustration for many topics and sometimes worry that only the bad guys have figured this out!)

*For instance, the capstone class of my major was studying biological systems from an engineering perspective, e.g. analyzing cell membrane activity as electrical circuitry and the digestive system in terms of control systems.  I had several friends who went on to med school who said this course allowed them to practically sleep through the ordinarily difficult first year, because they got the mechanics in a deep way and could just plug all the new facts into an existing knowledge structure.  And of course, it was a capstone course after years of basic science/math/specialized-engineering.  I wish I had that deep understanding of programming.

Rufus Laggren wrote:
I guess one short answer to your original post: There's a RealWorld out there and everything is anchored in it. We are. And IT doesn't move noticeably when you push on it. Not every when you push really really hard. To get anywhere we find where the river flows and go _there_. Not where we "arbitrarily" decide to go. The RealWorld monopolizes most of everybody's attention, 24/7. Even Permie Zealots. Ask Paul how much RealWorld controls his plans and efforts.

This leads to Elliot's problem with "packaging". Packaging is what makes it possible for people, without the time or resources to make themselves gurus in everything, to benefit from massive learning and design by others. It's what makes it possible for the "little woman" (or name your better example) to drive the horseless carriage. The steering wheel, accelerator, power brakes and power steering (not to mention weather proof interior) are a PACKAGE! It takes mind boggling science and engineering and covers it over with pretty fenders, nice interior and doors that open easily and an easy-to-understand way to start it (key) and use it. No degree in chemistry or applied industrial design required. The package truly does "dumb down" what really makes up a car. If it didn't, nobody could drive one.

I'm guessing C* might be looking for a package to make Permakulture usable by people with no real understanding of the details. Nor any wish for such. Do you _really_ want to learn how to reprogram the computer that runs your vehicle? Going with that for a moment, what _would_ people using the Permakulture Package be wanting? Mystical communion with... Something? Ticket to heaven? Bragging rights? Think a moment about the car package. People (most everybody, in fact) drives. Why? Is it because they just get warm and fuzzy when the engine purrs? Is it because they worship Western tech and want to be a little part of it? Well, even though I'm sure there are a few people that get the warm fuzzies and all that, the car has become ubiquitous by providing a huge dollop of power and control to people who drive.

I find this really insightful, Rufus, thank you!

I definitely need the reminder that "There's a RealWorld out there and everything is anchored in it. We are. And IT doesn't move noticeably when you push on it."

I also appreciate the metaphor of packaging, and extending it to the car.  It used to be, the only people who drove were the car geeks.  They had to have a certain amount of money, space and time to play around, mechanical/electrical aptitude, physical strength to turn the crank, and a bunch of other geeks to geek around with.  Now they still exist (in the muscle car group, the replica car group, the bio-diesel hackers, etc...) but most people just want to get from here to there with certain parameters.

Permaculture isn't just gardening, right?  a) It's a World View so to speak.  b) It's supposed to be applicable in any context with enough creative stretching, and to be able to solve any problem.

a) most people don't want to change their world view.  They have a specific task they want to complete, and they're willing to look at Permaculture if they think it will help, but while b) promises to help, it can also come off as, um, cult-like.  

I want to go back to the original post:  "I think we can all agree that we are in a shape shifting time with this pandemic and economic collapse. IMO this is the time that permaculture could arise and be a better way forward.  That is not what I'm seeing and it has been one of the reasons why I rarely use the word that much to describe what I'm doing at my residence. I feel as if permaculturists have been waiting and anticipating peak oil, economic collapse, health crisis, etc for the path to be paved for a better future, one where permaculture principals can be implemented."

Does Permaculture have something to offer to people right now?  I mean, I think it is a good set of principles, but is it what people are looking for?  Or do they just want to be able to eat their own apples in case the grocery store is closed for a month?

The packaging metaphor is a good one, but.....
Most people are turning to basics (permaculture if you will) because the pre packaged life is breaking down.
And even if you keep the packaging metaphor going, the reality is you either;
1; Spend a fortune for a car under warranty, (which defacto means you have a pre installed mechanic). For a remarkably short period of time after which you need to spend another fortune.
2; Or you have a (relatively) cheap car and an expensive mechanic, or a series of inexpensive lousy ones
3; Or you have a car and a long history of back country breakdown education, and greasy trials, with long country walks and desperate pre dawn calls for assistance, that have taught you to do it your self

Permaculture to my poor mind is the third option.

If you would like to try it in the second instance, than you own land and hire a professional gardener / grounds keeper, cook (to can /dry /package,  all the largesse!) and a carpenter or two to create storage space. Or offer shelter to a series of people whom may (or may not) have good ideas, good work ethic and are willing to invest their future in little more than temporary shelter.

Or to keep the packaging metaphor intact,..go with option #1, proceed to the Good Food Store and buy organically grown veggies, free range eggs, and grass fed beefalo as needed

For many "permaculture" seems to be a revival of "back to the land"
To me permaculture is; Build once, Harvest for generations....regardless of the playing field you choose to build on.  As an exclamation point to that, planned obsolescence, and hybrid (no second generation crop) crops, are fraud.

What follows is an except form a treasure hunters diary.
The point I'm making with it is that :-
(1) it is not valuable unless you've worked really hard to find it for yourself
(2) no-one knows where to start initially, or what they will find, and that's okay.
(3) The reward is worth the effort, but only if you make the effort

Having said that I would like to see a "knowledge Base" or "kingdom" classification system, on permies for identifying common problems that drill down to variant solutions depending on the answer to pertinent questions. I thought about building it myself but honestly don't have the chops to pull it off. All the data is here, but it is currently organised like an ancient, partially looted,  treasure chamber
So self-determination "in spades" is still stranded issue for gardens,  tomb raiding and knowledge mining.

http://www.griffith.ox.ac.uk/gri/4sea1not.html
Tutankhamun: Anatomy of an Excavation.
Howard Carter's diaries and journals

"Feverishly we cleared away the remaining last scraps of rubbish on the floor of the passage before the doorway, until we had only the clean sealed doorway before us. In which, after making preliminary notes, we made a tiny breach in the top left hand corner to see what was beyond. Darkness and the iron testing rod told us that there was empty space. Perhaps another descending staircase, in accordance to the ordinary royal Theban tomb plan? Or may be a chamber? Candles were procured - the all important tell-tale for foul gases when opening an ancient subterranean excavation - I widened the breach and by means of the candle looked in, while Ld. C., Lady E, and Callender with the Reises waited in anxious expectation.

It was sometime before one could s`ee, the hot air escaping caused the candle to flicker, but as soon as one's eyes became accustomed to the glimmer of light the interior of the chamber gradually loomed before one, with its strange and wonderful medley of extraordinary and beautiful objects heaped upon one another.

There was naturally short suspense for those present who could not see, when Lord Carnarvon said to me `Can you see anything'. I replied to him Yes, it is wonderful. I then with precaution made the hole sufficiently large for both of us to see. With the light of an electric torch as well as an additional candle we looked in. Our sensations and astonishment are difficult to describe as the better light revealed to us the marvellous collection of treasures: two strange ebony-black effigies of a King, gold sandalled, bearing staff and mace, loomed out from the cloak of darkness; gilded couches in strange forms, lion-headed, Hathor-headed, and beast infernal; exquisitely painted, inlaid, and ornamental caskets; flowers; alabaster vases, some beautifully executed of lotus and papyrus device; strange black shrines with a gilded monster snake appearing from within; quite ordinary looking white chests; finely carved chairs; a golden inlaid throne; a heap of large curious white oviform boxes; beneath our very eyes, on the threshold, a lovely lotiform wishing-cup in translucent alabaster; stools of all shapes and design, of both common and rare materials; and, lastly a confusion of overturned parts of chariots glinting with gold, peering from amongst which was a mannikin. The first impression of which suggested the property-room of an opera of a vanished civilization. Our sensations were bewildering and full of strange emotion. We questioned one another as to the meaning of it all. Was it a tomb or merely a cache? A sealed doorway between the two sentinel statues proved there was more beyond, and with the numerous cartouches bearing the name of Tut.ankh.Amen on most of the objects before us, there was little doubt that there behind was the grave of that Pharaoh.

We closed the hole, locked the wooden-grill which had been placed upon the first doorway, we mounted our donkeys and return home contemplating what we had seen."

> organised like an ancient, partially looted,  treasure chamber

That is practically poetry! <G>  And I, also, I agree. <g>

However, I'm not sure that an awesome data base is the heart of PermiCulture. I think perhaps it's more basic and less cookbook. Something like "Do no Harm"  or something. That, I believe, is practically and also logically impossible. However, a philosophy, a concept, etc. can form the basis for later thoughts and actions. "Do not harm the World"...?  "Ask, do not Enforce"...?

Anyway, to unify as large and diverse a community needs a very simple and basic tenant if they is any hope of their being agreement. The plumbing mantra is "Preserve the health of the nation."  It brings in a lot a different versions of plumbing, gives them something in common. Maybe "Keep Humanity Part of the Whole"...?  "We are not Separate From Our World"...?  "We are What We Eat!"... (oops <buzzzzer> <g>)

Come on, folks. Must be some better copywriters here! <g>  Needs to be shorter, stronger, LESS ABSTRACT. Hmm. Less abstract?  Help. Out of my depth, there.

> packaging
Another view of packaging is how we arrange ourselves before we step out the door. We are presenting a package to the world, one we make up from the raw material of our person. We make choices. And to my mind we _always_ do - it is as necessary as breathing. It is our gift to the world. A buddy gave the perfect example. He was moaning about the weight of life and how it reminded him of a TV show about some show business character (sorry, don't recall the name - 90's maybe?) where the hero was slogging through life and the opening scene was always the guy looking into the mirror after falling out of bed. He pushed up the corners of his mouth, grunting "ShowTime" as he stumbled out of the bathroom. My buddy looks at that character as a hero, the pinnacle - and he might be right. Except we all do it, just maybe w/out the self conscious aspect.

Packaging  is a very very powerful concept partly because it encompasses and can apply to _so_ much in our lives.  Think of the Japanese culture, especially before the 20th centurey, but still ongoing. They made the art of creating and presenting extraordinary and beautiful packages an essential tenant and part of their culture. That says something, about packaging and about the Japanese. I'm betting Origami, the art of paper folding grew directly out of their love, fetish, even, for creating beauty  - packaging.

A peculiar and maybe important aspect of packaging: It does not _change_ or otherwise molest the contents - it pretty much does not destroy. It does not "break eggs". It presents. The art of offering.


Cheers,
Rufus

OK. Idea has struck. From something Karl posted on another thread (which I don't know how to link directly to his post, so I'll quote here...)

"

   Wendy Robers wrote:
   For what it is worth, I've had good success with Trombocino squash,butternut squash, and Seminole pumpkin here in the eastern part of Virginia...



I wanted to bring Wendy's comment back up to the top, because I found the exact same thing with the exact same varieties way up North in Rhode Island. Coincidence? I think not!

Before I realized that these three moschata varieties had a high resistance to many pests and diseases, it was nearly impossible for me to raise most of the squash I wanted. Tromboncino (or in my case Trombetta) serves as both a summer squash (when about 2' long) and a somewhat less exciting winter squash (when it's about 6' long). and butternut is familiar to most of us already. As for Seminole, I've only grown that from seeds that were already crossed with butternut, since I'm a little above the typical region for Seminole production. Upshot is, the squash vine borers that used to trouble me are no longer a problem. I don't seem to have as much problem with mildew, either. I am beginning to let some of the above cross with each other, to see whether I can generate even better varieties for my yard. Now all I need is a variety that the squirrels don't like to dig up just after I seed them!

My take-away is that people need to find what works for them and maybe let go of what doesn't work. That doesn't mean you shouldn't try to figure out solutions but, if you've exhausted all of the Permaculture options and the only remaining solution is poison, definitely think carefully about whether there might be another plant that would serve a similar purpose. For instance, it takes a lot of work to grow table-quality apples in my region. It is far easier to grow Asian pears. Neither are native, but apples are more familiar. I grow both, but only because my wife wanted me to grow some apples. If I were smart, or single, I'd probably just grow Asian pears.

I hope everyone here is closer to finding solutions to their squash problems. Definitely some good ideas in this thread! Thanks Scott!

Cheers,
Karl
"

This is thread is about (mostly) making Permies a happy household practice and Karls post just brings to mind instantly fisherman telling about they're catches, guys talking about their golf scores. How long is _your_ melon? ! <GGG> (I  know that's not what you meant, Karl.)

That is _exactly_ where PermiCulture needs to go. It needs to reach Joe Schmoe in an acceptable, casual, mildly interesting, UNDERSTANDABLE everyday way. Karl's plain, comfortable, chatty informative and slightly amusing post is the kind of thing we want to see on dozens of garage forums, lawn forums, tractor forums. And it's not too hard to "package" some garden work like that. "Can you lift your pumpkin by yourself?" "Grossest way to kill slugs!" "Yours may be bigger, but you're disqualified because you used chemicals!".

Now not everybody is a gear head, garden head, or dirt mucker. But this little "oops" we did with the virus gives the "virus garden" a little cache for the "guys" out there. If men can get obsessive about a lawn, I'd tlhink they could get obsessive about a 6' squash. And other stuff. Fads and enthusiasms are funny emphemeral things, but fan boys come in all shapes and forms and can be pretty enduring. Especially if there hobby pays dividends. There can be "Big Paul" tee shirts and "Lawton Leads" shirts and god knows what else.

So one thing which might move Permaculture is people who can (that's not all of us by any means) present at their local church show-tell.  Use a partner in the audience - shills have a long and successful traditiion! Bring up a competing item and argue in front of the disbelieving coffee hounds milling around after service. Repeat. Find other venues. It won't happen instantly over night. (or not usually, at least)

Note: No talk of virtue. No talk of "right". Just "mine is prettier" or "mine is bigger" or "mine tastes _much_ better", or "I just put in another 100SF of cabbage and you know that coleslaw you loved last week? Eat your heart out!"

Embellish to suit. Pick your  Mutt&Jeff routine. Make you wife/partner really hated (or loved) by letting her present the best tasting "whatever" (or the worst... any publicity, you know) from _your_ garden. People love entertainment,  especially if it peeks their interest.

That stuff "sells" in America. And for good reason. It's fun and accessible to everybody and non-threatening. I guess the simple way to say it: Share your enthusiasms in a direct easygoing way. You'll reach some people.


Cheers,
Rufus

oh, and apologies to Karl for putting him on stage w/out warning...  but can't tell a lie, his was the post that got the wheels turning

I think maybe what the OP would like is a "Here is the Best, Cheapest, most direct method to achieve long lasting results" list.

And in itself the list is self defeating, because.....; As soon as the list is compiled the practitioners of such arts become "in demand" and the demand for raw materiel drives up the prices, and Wah La! its no longer in easy reach.

Take Housing for instance, I've seen housing go from logs, to superinsulation to rammed earth to straw bale, and back to logs, and now we're seeing hybrids of pole barns and sometimes superinsulation, and as quickly as a method becomes prevalent it drives prices up to the point that its right on par with every other method.
Insulation has gone from nonexistent to suffocating and mold inducing now "planned infiltration" is a thing and at every evolution costs have been introduced and increased

Gardening has gone from Mittleider's "poison everything and start fresh", to poison nothing and learn to enjoy the taste of random weeds! Truly if your looking for stability in homegrown advice you are shooting for the moon.

Animal Husbandry has stayed relatively constant, it is the one area where science has overcome anecdote.

I've been talking with family the other day, about the more exact time when the pandemic started. I said January, and they said "no, but in January there weren't any lockdowns here yet, so we didn't have any pandemic". I had an anectode about the time when I lived on a Greek island, which had frequent earthquakes. The local government was rather slow and it usually announced about the earthquake on the next day. I said, that if everyone on that island waited for that official info before acknowledging the earthquake, they would have been in big trouble.

But it seems to be the same with other issues, from weather to pandemic, to air pollution and now a diesel leaking in Siberia (just a few days ago). I think, that most people will respond to such events just like they do to Covid - wearing masks or not, practicing social distancing or not. It's just a nuisance for them. And permaculture as a system, with all its complicatons, and different solutions to different conditions and needs, is way too much of a nuisance for most people, who want a simple, easy life.

On the other hand, there is a lot of people who know and do much more. Permaculture artisans and others. They are fixing problems for many years now, and they're having amazing results. Let's appreciate that!

I am in several gardening and plant groups. I refer people to this site often. There is a lot of knowledge here.

> [popularity of habitat type]  drives prices up to the point that its right on par with every other method

To the extent that's true, and I'm not sure it is, exactly, I'd bet a big part of it is that when a type of construction gets "popular", all a sudden it must meet a much higher bar than acceptable to those enthusiasts who have no problem living with bugs, drafts, cold, heat, wet, cramped space... All in the name of virtue and self development.  Once certain minimum levels of comfort, reliability, longevity and safety are demanded, costs _will_ rise.

And then there's the contractor. When one doesn't spend thousands of personal hours over many years, unpaid and  uncounted to realize a project... When the true cost of building a structure, as reflected by having to _pay_ somebody to do it, whether that pay is in kind, in cash, in favors, is factored in - the cost "goes through the ceiling" like for anything else that doesn't exist in the special bubble of personal avocation. The more people involved, the more options, the more power available - but also the more "friction" in the system, the more "leaks", the more confusion.

Accounting and budgeting can be great truth enforcers. It is worth _not_ dismissing, out of hand, cost as a valid and respectable part of a project. One that can also give valuable insight into a project's philosophies,  methods and help bring to the front unspoken beliefs and assumptions behind it. There are many ways to skin a cat and some "under the table" and "innovative" methods truly offer a better way. Most do not, when there is a requirement (pretty much any requirement at all) that must be met, timely. There is a _reason_ well beyond avarice and stupidity for the price of a product. Grant all the conspiracies you like, grant "structural" inequities, grant vested  immobility. There is a lot of territory extending beyond those usual scapegoats where simple physical problems rule and raise the costs.

I do not believe our cultural economic system provides well for most of us. And Western culture has done violence to our planet to the point of killing us. But many of it's tools are top notch. AND value neutral. The values get injected and built in by ambitious people of various persuasions. Not by the tools.

Perhaps humanity really _should_ have remained in the stone age because we are incapable of disciplining ourselves and our children with honesty and ongoing integrity and thus incapable of responsible and honest use of the amazing tools our thinkers and innovators give us. Or another way to put it is that it appears extraordinarily difficult for most people to include others as part of their personal identity. I have often wondered if the geniuses who produced our scientific progress should form a guild and withhold and dole out all knowledge using some (who knows what?) standards or other. Impossible? Well, it looks that way. But who knows...


Regards,
Rufus

>  Animal Husbandry has stayed relatively constant, it is the one area where science has overcome anecdote.

Animal husbandry can exact very quick and severe retribution for stepping out of certain narrow procedures. But we have been screwing up our biome with bacteriacides in animal feed on a grand scale. Animals have a higher cost of entry than other parts of farming and food production.


Regards,
Rufus