planned obsolescence (documentary)

Wow.

I know that patagonia made (makes?) clothes with the idea that they should last 25 years or more.  Their idea was that no clothes could be made without some environmental impact.  But if you made clothes especially well, they could last so long that folks could then reduce the total amount of clothes bought over their lifetime by a factor of 10 or 20.

What might be a word (or phrase) for that?

I think it would apply to cast iron pans too.

I have a Patagonia pull over fleece that I bought in 1979.  Still keeps me warm.

Perhaps "Sustainable manufacturing" would fit their business model.

I'm totally in touch with this.  There is nothing more disappointing and frustrating than stuff breaking down, falling apart, or failing for no good reason.  I once bought an appliance, opened the box, plugged it in...nothing happened.  It's not just the money wasted on junk, there is the time spent going to get it, and in the case of the above appliance, returning it.  Add in fuel, wear and tear, accounting, standing in line, or hoping for time off work when the customer service desk is open.

I've bought socks that were mislabeled in the package that didn't fit, a fridge that crapped out a month after the warranty went, shoes that fell apart in just a few weeks, an office chair that disintegrated in a year, shelves that sag from the weight of towels, garden hose that leaks when water is first run through, floor tile that did not match in color-even though I had checked to ensure the lot numbers were identical, spray cans that have no propellant, an electric lawn mower that did not have the charger in the box, a pitchfork that just wont stay in the handle no matter how many shims I pound in.  Once I had lumber delivered that was full of termites.

There is no end to it.

I work pretty hard for my money.  It fills me with rage when it is wasted on junk.  I want stuff that will last.  I want stuff that aint gonna break even if an elephant steps on it.  Ideally, stuff that will hold up in such a manner that it becomes part of an estate passed down.  I want stuff that, if it breaks, can be replaced without question. 

Call it Permanomics. 

There are some goods out there that fit the bill.  Cast iron pans certainly fit the bill.  I've thrown out teflon pans after a couple of years, too tore up and dented to be useful.  I have a fine chef's knife I picked up at a flea market for a quarter.  To solve the problem of bowls breaking, I invested in stainless steel bowls, several sizes.  When I buy something I shop around and test the stuff out before I buy.  I bent every fork in Walmart (its the only place in town) before deciding on which set of silverware to go with.  I open the box and spread parts out to verify all parts are included.  If I can't find what I'm looking for, and if it does not pass the durability test, I will go without.

Next, I want stuff that has another use when its expected service is used up.  Brooms with wooden handles get the end cut off, then shoved in the corner of the garden beds to keep the hose from dragging across the plants.  Cotton mop heads are compostable when well rinsed.

I want packaging that can be used for something other than filling up a trash bag.  Glass containers with good caps for storing seeds, rice, flour, beans.  Without the caps, how about a set of drinking glasses.  How about graduations on the side for use as a measuring cup?  Bertolli uses ball jars for packaging their pasta sauce-brilliant.  Packaging is included in the price of a product, I want my money's worth.  If packaging was reused, the landfills would not be as poisonous.

I want stuff that can be fixed.  Electronics often fail this feature, so I make do with less electronics around here.  Still, getting the replacement parts is often impossible.  Contract production of proprietary components on a global scale limits the number of parts made for an assembly plant.   When a production run is complete, the contract is satisfied, the producers don't keep making components, and it would be a breech of contract to do so.  I challenge you to go to Walmart and find that same style of toaster you have at home right now, or try finding the knob that broke off after a month.

I want stuff that has multiple functions.  How about a broom handle with a threaded end, and interchangable heads for brooms/mops/duster/carpet sweeper/paint roller/light bulb reacher/what have you.  Sure would save a lot of closet space.

Here's one for you...
A tree fell on my house 5 years ago, the insurance claim is still in litigation.  As part of my claim I've been saving receipts for stuff such as a digital camera to take pictures, or groceries which would show a change in lifestyle resulting from loss of electricity and hot/cold food storage and preparation.  Over 5 years I've learned a great deal about receipts.  A lot of those store receipts are produced on thermal paper.  If conditions are right, the entire receipt turns black.  For those receipts that are printed with ink, often it is a soy based ink.  After a few years of exposure to oxygen that ink disappears.  Go ahead and use a destroyed receipt and try to enforce a manufacturers warranty.  You would swear it is a conspiracy.

A version with better subtitles:

http://dotsub.com/view/aed3b8b2-1889-4df5-ae63-ad85f5572f27

paul wheaton wrote:
A version with better subtitles:

http://dotsub.com/view/aed3b8b2-1889-4df5-ae63-ad85f5572f27

Yeah, what he said. You miss a lot without translation for the many non-English speaking contributors.

Wow!  Is there any way out of this mess other than total crisis?

Thanks for posting.

Jocelyn and I made a podcast about it.  Probably one of the lessor podcasts.

Wow!  Is there any way out of this mess other than total crisis?

Be aware of it.  Withhold your money from organizations that practice this.  After all, "vote with your dollar" is very powerful.

It is worse. The computer makers, take Apple for example, are dropping support for "old" software that is only five years old. Dropping as it will no longer run on new hardware. They make all these big claims about how powerful the new hardware is so crimminy, it should be able to easily emulate the old stuff and continue to run old software. There is a lot of software that has never been rewritten for the new hardware. Both business and especially kids software titles. Shame on them for purposefully creating obsolescence.

Ken,
  Your views on "permanomics" are awesome!  I am constanly at my favorite hardware store getting nuts,bolts, washers, glue ect.  It becomes a challenge to reduce my waste and test my creativity.  I am amazed at what can be saved with simple,cheap parts.  For me its a source of pride.  I buy stuff with ability of repair parts in mind.  Sometimes companies or businesses think its strange when I ask the how long their stuff will last.  I have also found some that stand proud and provide realistic expectations.  As a consumer I dont see anything wrong with expecting my purchases to last and be fixable. 

Just had to share this "manifesto" and the Platform 21 = Repairing site it came from.



And for a goofy side, see There, I Fixed It, Redneck Repairs.

okay, on this slight topic.

did you hear the one about how different fuels in car engines create different amounts of wear?

lol, did you hear the one about how a guy quit detroit and started a company to sell aftermarket computer chips to keep your car from self destructing?

hehehe, what about the mechanic that recommended I change the oil between the scheduled dealer oil changes. (he was letting me know that the schedule oil change is twice as long as it should be). hmm, but the dealer oil change is free...! lol

did you read the one on the NiFe battery (edison) - some still running after 80+ years.

did you hear the one on rehabbing a lead acid battery that's at the end of it's cycle and turning it into a lead alkaline battery?

yeah, fun things. And then there's the old lead acid batteries that had cells you could take apart and fix, and then the new ones which are much harder to take apart and fix.

It's a conspiracy man. cut down the perennials and plant some F1 hybrid annuals. .

I know a guy who's pushing 80.  His sheep farm is still running the old Lister generator his father installed when he was a kid  (their only source of electricity).  Every 10-20 years they have to take apart the batteries and clean up the plates, then put them back together and refill them.  Luckily, his grand kids help him with this now.
The only thing he has ever replaced was fuel filters and oil.

John Polk wrote:
I know a guy who's pushing 80.  His sheep farm is still running the old Lister generator his father installed when he was a kid  (their only source of electricity).  Every 10-20 years they have to take apart the batteries and clean up the plates, then put them back together and refill them.  Luckily, his grand kids help him with this now.
The only thing he has ever replaced was fuel filters and oil.

sounds like like edison batteries. was reading on some of the battery sites about those lister generators. must be something about them for them to always show up together. .

Those old Listers are rugged, and simple.  They are quite pricey now (as are good batteries), but if you consider that your grandchildren will still be using them into the 22nd century, their cost doesn't seem so out of line.

Jocelyn and I made a podcast on this!

http://www.richsoil.com/permaculture/320-podcast-041-planned-obsolescence/

The key to this was given out early on, paraphrasing, "They have to sell us new stuff in order for the economy to grow."

This is the perverse nature of our economy. Having enough should be a wonderful thing. But in the context of our economy, it is catastrophic.

I have a 123 series Mercedes Benz diesel. MB screwed up their planned obsolescence when they built it. These vehicles can easily put on a half-million miles or more with only routine maintenance and repair. Mine was built in 1980 and has fewer than 150,000 miles on it. I can reasonably expect to drive it for the rest of my life.

Can you imagine if all cars and trucks were built like this? It would be a catastrophy for the auto industry. After an initial feeding frenzy, new car sales would plummet. So instead they put a lot of thought and work into building vehicles that will just outlast the warranty. My ex-wife's jetta was a good example. 100,000 mile warranty. It didn't make it to 110,000 miles.

My hero! My savior! I saw that documentary in Spanish months ago, and I did search for a documentary about planned obsolescence, and it didn't seem to exist.
This is so going to go all over my Facebook.

One of the driving forces  that maintains this is the ability to dump garbage into other countries  or  "somewhere" that people who are into the latest thing and rampant consumerism can avoid being confronted with the consequences. It's totally disgraceful what is being done with all this electronic garbage..  to say nothing of the huge patches of ocean which are now filled with garbage as well.  Perhaps it's time  to have a MAJOR environmental charge for any electronic equipment which is discarded before it is  say 5 years old, for whatever reason. Combined with government support for companies making products out of materials which can be either recycled or repaired or repurposed, this could make an impact on the horrendous mountain of toxic waste being produced every year.

It was interesting to me that all of the economic focus was on the idea of people having to have jobs, lots and lots of jobs. IF people didn't buy into the concept of "keeping up with the Jones" it would not be as necessary to work so much and less money would go further than more money does now. People would have time  to garden for example, and to do community stuff that right now people have to raise the taxes of the community to pay people to do.  Everything from fixing ( fixing!..how about  building!)  the community hall to planting and looking after the summer flower beds used to be done by volunteer community effort.

Clearly not everyone would buy into a new sort of economy..I sent a video clip
http://www.ted.com/talks/dan_phillips_creative_houses_from_reclaimed_stuff.html  to various people and from some there was a deafening silence if not a certain degree of disdain. However, from the others..it signified possibilities that they would love to follow up on. I suspect that his focus on the Budweiser house  tended to make a first impression of these houses being the sort of thing that a redneck type would go for, not for THEM. They didn't see the houses as something "their " group would ever be involved with.

One thing I found quite fascinating recently was that during the tour that royals William and Kate just had in Canada, Kate chose to wear a dress that she has been seen in before..an event which apparently was worth a major news story.  It's refreshing to see that perhaps she is sensible enough to see no point in tossing a dress she liked just because she has worn it once.

This was a wonderful  documentary (if rather depressing).  Thanks for sharing.

paul wheaton wrote:
  But if you made clothes especially well, they could last so long that folks could then reduce the total amount of clothes bought over their lifetime by a factor of 10 or 20.

What might be a word (or phrase) for that?

I think it would apply to cast iron pans too.

Permapans / Permapants / Permapanties / Permaparka / Permapushupbra
(sorry, it's after two am and I am slap-happy..... permanently)

pubwvj wrote:
It is worse. The computer makers, take Apple for example, are dropping support for "old" software that is only five years old. Dropping as it will no longer run on new hardware. They make all these big claims about how powerful the new hardware is so crimminy, it should be able to easily emulate the old stuff and continue to run old software. There is a lot of software that has never been rewritten for the new hardware. Both business and especially kids software titles. Shame on them for purposefully creating obsolescence.

Right. One of the more obnoxious incidents of planned obsolescence was when Micro$oft kindly gave a boost to the PC industry by releasing Vista, which would not run properly on 90+ percent of the computers out there, and required those who wanted Vista to buy new computers. This was consistent with other Micro$oft practices such as releasing new versions of Office which were not backwardly compatible with older versions.

So scratch Micro$oft and Apple if you want to avoid companies that engage in planned obsolescence. Likewise, if anyone knows of an auto company that does not plan a limited lifespan for the vehicles they manufacture, I would like to hear about that.

The practice is ubiquitous.

I recently was out of hot water for a week, as my water heater died. Turns out that the manufacturer had incorporated a "safety feature" which would, if the temp got past a certain point or the air flow was impeded or a variety of other things happened, destroy itself and render the water heater inoperable. I only found out about it by googling. And was fortunate that the thing had killed itself two weeks before the warranty expired. Turns out that while the manufacturer (which produces MOST gas water heaters in this country) now will sell you the replacement part, they do so now only because they came under fire for their previous practice, which was telling the consumer that the water heater was beyond help and to go buy a new one.

The replacement part is a gas-filled glass ampule in a clip, and likely costs the manufacturer less than $2 each. Installation takes less than 15 minutes.

Their manuals do not mention this part or provide instructions on its replacement. You have to call their tech support line (have fun with that) get somebody on the line, and they will require that you dismantle the thing while they are on the line, describe to them what you see and then if it meets their criteria they will tell you about their "safety feature" and offer to sell you a replacement, complete with instructions.

LasVegasLee wrote:
The key to this was given out early on, paraphrasing, "They have to sell us new stuff in order for the economy to grow."

This is the perverse nature of our economy. Having enough should be a wonderful thing. But in the context of our economy, it is catastrophic.

Absolutely.  The primary driver of growth in a mature, wealthy economy is by replacement.  And if replacement has been debt financed, you need growth in order to service growing debt.  But this kind of growth is self-destructive as resources are consumed at an increasing rate and debt levels reach saturation levels.  But a tree does not grow to the sky so ............................ 

It took me better than a month to find a good no. 4 pony shovel.. I couldn't find one worth a toss, and I probably examined better than a half a dozen before I finally settled. I refuse to spend my money on garbage that's gonna snap in my hands during its first rigorous work-out, or is "one use" type-stuff (crazy how many things are made in "disposable" varieties these days). I buy industrial grade hose (the red heat rated stuff), which runs about two times the cost of your standard issue flimsy green garden hose. I figure if I can get twice the longevity out of it, that cuts my fuel consumption by half of what it'd be otherwise (driving for replacements - and I have to make an 80+ mile round-trip for a decent hardware store that doesn't charge "town prices"), and likewise my landfill waste (though spent hose gets reused around here for wire wraps and other various odds and ends anyhow). Cheesecloth is another one I've been playing with for the last month or so as I continue to try and shrink my "footprint" and transition from disposables to "permies". Nothing worse than throwing out a Ziplock after one use, and washing them for reuse just doesn't pass for sanitary with me. We've cut plastic (including BPA-ridden "reusable/disposables") and foil from our box of food storage tools completely.

M. Edwards wrote:Cheesecloth is another one I've been playing with for the last month

Jelly bag, pillow case, panty hose, sheer curtain, chinois strainer (although it's a tad hard to squeeze)

M. Edwards wrote:
It took me better than a month to find a good no. 4 pony shovel.. I couldn't find one worth a toss, and I probably examined better than a half a dozen before I finally settled. I refuse to spend my money on garbage that's gonna snap in my hands during its first rigorous work-out, or is "one use" type-stuff (crazy how many things are made in "disposable" varieties these days).

When it comes to tools, as the Polish say, the stingy man pays twice.

I learned this the hard way, and have amassed a few good tools that will likely outlive me -

A grub hoe, only a little more expensive than the cheap garden hoes sold in big boxes and nurseries, $30 for  a hoe that comes with its own sharpener and lasts forever.

A monster maul, a 15 pound splitting maul with a 1" steel pipe for a handle. I got tired of breakiing handles on splitting mauls. This never will.

A broadfork handmade by a blacksmith. Beautiful turned wood handles. It will last for generations.

An assortment of carbon steel knives that stain easily but sharpen to a razor edge. Carbon steel knives are hard to find nowadays, but you can get a dynamite carbon steel chinese vegetable knife for under $20.

And of course, plenty of cast iron cookware.

The Chinese chef's knife is a monument to frugality.  Back "in the day", knives were made by sword makers.  The warlords could afford many swords, but the typical family could only afford one knife.  Instead of putting a knife at each place setting, the cook did all of the cutting with the one knife.  Most Asian cuisines prepare meals where each piece is bite sized (chop sticks are cheaper than knives).

Besides cutting with the edge, the straight back was used as a tenderizer, the blunt end of the handle, and the flat of the blade are used for crushing garlic, ginger, herbs,or whatever.  I have watched a Chinese cook use the square tip to remove phillip head screws so he could repair his rice cooker.  It was a one-size-fits-all, multipurpose kitchen tool.

John Polk wrote:
The Chinese chef's knife is a monument to frugality.  Back "in the day", knives were made by sword makers.  The warlords could afford many swords, but the typical family could only afford one knife.  Instead of putting a knife at each place setting, the cook did all of the cutting with the one knife.  Most Asian cuisines prepare meals where each piece is bite sized (chop sticks are cheaper than knives).

Besides cutting with the edge, the straight back was used as a tenderizer, the blunt end of the handle, and the flat of the blade are used for crushing garlic, ginger, herbs,or whatever.  I have watched a Chinese cook use the square tip to remove phillip head screws so he could repair his rice cooker.  It was a one-size-fits-all, multipurpose kitchen tool.

Haven't used mine as a screwdriver. But the rectangular blade makes it an excellent combination chopper and spatula - dice the ingredient, sweep it up onto the side of the flat blade, and use it to transfer the ingredients to the pot.

LasVegasLee wrote:

A monster maul, a 15 pound splitting maul with a 1" steel pipe for a handle. I got tired of breakiing handles on splitting mauls. This never will.

Some nice cushy padding where you grip the haft I hope? The reverb coming down that thing must be fierce!

Just listening to podcast 041 and was reminded of a pretty good movie related to this topic, in a way.

"The Man In The White Suit" with a young Obi Wan Kenobi, sorry, Alec Guinness.

I don't think I'm spoiling anything if I sum it up, I've seen it twice and it's still entertaining.

Alec Guinness invents a cloth that never dirties or wears out.  Some people (textile manufacturers, labor unions and politicians) do not want this product out.

That's the premise.  The movie's worth checking out.

Guess I shoulda listened to the whole podcast before I posted the previous.  Just didn't want to forget the thought I had.

Jocelyn talks about the film 21 minutes into the podcast.

John Polk wrote:
The Chinese chef's knife is a monument to frugality.  Back "in the day", knives were made by sword makers.  The warlords could afford many swords, but the typical family could only afford one knife.  Instead of putting a knife at each place setting, the cook did all of the cutting with the one knife.  Most Asian cuisines prepare meals where each piece is bite sized (chop sticks are cheaper than knives).

Yes, the Vietnamese soup place in Surrey we liked (where the Vietnamese eat), does not serve food with knife and fork... but all the food is chopstick eatable. The one here is obviously made for white people... everything is too big to use chopsticks with.

Besides cutting with the edge, the straight back was used as a tenderizer, the blunt end of the handle, and the flat of the blade are used for crushing garlic, ginger, herbs,or whatever.  I have watched a Chinese cook use the square tip to remove phillip head screws so he could repair his rice cooker.  It was a one-size-fits-all, multipurpose kitchen tool.

I know a few bikers who have flattened the tip of their lockbacks for a similar purpose.

LasVegasLee wrote:
A grub hoe, only a little more expensive than the cheap garden hoes sold in big boxes and nurseries, $30 for  a hoe that comes with its own sharpener and lasts forever.

An assortment of carbon steel knives that stain easily but sharpen to a razor edge. Carbon steel knives are hard to find nowadays, but you can get a dynamite carbon steel chinese vegetable knife for under $20.

Can we start naming names here?  Companies we like, websites for the purchase of the above, etc.  Applicable information.  Paul provided a link to a spatula in his cast iron podcast and I grabbed one, couldn't be happier.

As for the steel maul handle, ouch!  Buy wooden handle tools with decently sized eyes and spend the time to learn how to re handle.  It's not as hard as you'd think and most handles today are so badly made you can hardly do worse.  Once you can handle adequately even cheap tools will last generations.

There is one caveat I'd make:
'Permanent' or durable tools and objects are generally a much better buy, both for personal thrift and for the environmental impact.
BUT
a permanent solution to a temporary problem becomes a permanent problem.

So the goal of responsible production should be a product whose durability befits its anticipated usefulness. 
An axe - gonna need that for a long time.  Use good materials - best iron and steel for the head, biodegradble hardwoods for the handle.
An arm cast - 8 weeks, plus or minus - it would be good to make that from biodegradable materials, since it won't be sanitary to re-use it.  Maybe a sterilizable case, plus biodegradable sterile liners.
Dishes - re-usable for several generations, but on certain occasions, single-use dishes may be desirable. (Picnics or funerals, but also for example in a sickroom for a nasty foodborne illness.)

Plastics are some of the most durable materials we know how to make; yet they are not really suitable for long-term use in the same way that cast iron is.  Plastic food-ware gets scuffed up and contaminated with oily odors and dyes; in some cases, the plasticizers themselves leach out into the food over time and leave the plastic brittle.  Plastics break, like ceramics, but are not as suitable for re-processing into drain rock or beach sand.  (look up the floating plastic in the Pacific gyre.)

The problem is not just manufacture of cheap, disposable objects - it's the fact that these objects are being made with very durable, and often toxic, materials.  If you want to make disposable objects, make them genuinely throw-away: safe to toss on the burn pile, recycle bin, or just out the window into the yard.  Banana-leaf or brown-paper foodware, for example.  Even newspaper, though unsightly as litter, can be made without toxic inks so it's fully clean-burning and recyclable, and good for wrapping fish & chips. 

That's a lot different from chrome-plated and lead-lined appliances, with noxious carinogens released from the flammable parts when they burn.

I hope we reach a point of stability in the high-tech industry soon.  Right now, nobody supports software over about 4-5 years old, sometimes less than 3, so hardware becomes 'obsolete' for incompatibility with the newer stuff.  I hope we reach some kind of practical limit to just how much info we need to be able to download, print, etc, and we can start seeing more durable high-tech devices made available.  Sometimes buying a high-end machine pays off in longer product life, but sometimes you just get screwed more expensively.

It's like cell phones are designed with toilet-bowl homing technology.

Cradle to Cradle or Natural Capitalism are great books for solutions for restructuring this idiocy.  Very inspiring stuff

It's even better...or worse!....

the whole story not just of that Phoebus light bulb cartel conspiracy,
but of the shenaningans before the 2007 and 2008 US and EU ban decisions
have been covered by MP Leahy and Howard Brandston in their 2011 e-book "I Light bulb" (available online)
(Brandston was there in the consultation and Hearing processes)
and by German and other researchers re the European side.
(http://freedomlightbulb.blogspot.com/2011/12/light-bulb-testimonial.html - re Leahy, Brandston USA
http://ceolas.net/#phoebuspol -re both USA and Europe)

I have a job in my shop right now that I have mixed feelings about. I am machining a mold to cast fiberglass buggy wheels for an Amish gentleman. From his prespective the glass fiber reinforced polyester resin wheels are the best thing ever. They last for decades and are maintenance free as compared to wooden wheels. As a machist I have hours to ponder what I am making and I still have some conflicts. On the one side this mold will produce a wheel that lasts the life of the person, but it is made from a very non natural material that is not very green. So as I spend the next month cutting away at a large aluminum sheets am I helping or hurting the world I live in. Which is a bit of a joke as I run large machines on grid power and drive an old chevy truck!
kent

kent smith wrote:I have a job in my shop right now that I have mixed feelings about. I am machining a mold to cast fiberglass buggy wheels for an Amish gentleman. From his prespective the glass fiber reinforced polyester resin wheels are the best thing ever. They last for decades and are maintenance free as compared to wooden wheels. As a machist I have hours to ponder what I am making and I still have some conflicts. On the one side this mold will produce a wheel that lasts the life of the person, but it is made from a very non natural material that is not very green. So as I spend the next month cutting away at a large aluminum sheets am I helping or hurting the world I live in. Which is a bit of a joke as I run large machines on grid power and drive an old chevy truck!
kent

Interesting!

Also interesting that this (unsafe longlasting, safer shortlasting product) is becoming more widespread...

it is after all rather like the light bulb issue, with (supposedly) long lasting but environmentally unfriendly bulbs promoted as replacement of more environmentally friendly but shorter lasting ("less sustainable") bulbs
= Product sustainability versus environmental sustainability?

(For electrical products some might add that energy using products are environmentally unfriendly, but that depends on type of energy used which in any case is small in overall amount and can of course be dealt with directly, as covered in the "alternative energy" forum section https://permies.com/forums/f-10/alternative-energy)

paul wheaton wrote:

Maybe of interest since that video link no longer works,
http://freedomlightbulb.org/2012/05/lightbulb-conspiracy-documentary-by.html
video in different languages, video interview with the director, and background documentation

Thanks Nicole for the updated link!