small scale gasifier production

these guys are doing it , cheap. well cheaper.

http://www.vulcangasifier.com/

cheaper than what? $1000 for a 5hp unit doesn't seem cheap to me. Someone should be able to put that together for less than $300. In fact, on the gasifiers group on yahoo, people are running 180hp trucks on setups for under $500.

Abe Connally wrote:cheaper than what? $1000 for a 5hp unit doesn't seem cheap to me. Someone should be able to put that together for less than $300. In fact, on the gasifiers group on yahoo, people are running 180hp trucks on setups for under $500.

Cheaper than a Victory, that's for sure...

The price jump to get to the next size is small--most of the money is wrapped up in manpower, overhead, and profit.

Cost is never a good indicator of quality. Most people would prefer to purchase things that work instead of trying to "save money" with a half-assed backyard DIY project that never gets finished. The best home gasifier design I am aware of is the GEK

http://gekgasifier.com/

Which can be purchased as plans, a kit or a fully assembled skid mounted "power pallet" with---I think---a Kubota or GM piston generator.

R Scott wrote:
Cheaper than a Victory, that's for sure...

The price jump to get to the next size is small--most of the money is wrapped up in manpower, overhead, and profit.

What's a Victory? The price to the next size is 40% increase, for 1hp gain.

Cost is never a good indicator of quality. Most people would prefer to purchase things that work instead of trying to "save money" with a half-assed backyard DIY project that never gets finished. The best home gasifier design I am aware of is the GEK

The GEK is a quality made product, for sure. It is good up to 30 HP, which makes it a decent value.

I prefer the half-assed method, myself. I guess that's why I've never been in debt and own everything I have.

I prefer what works best. The useful output for gasifiers is in the 5-10kW combined heat and electric range, since above that piston generators start to get too noisy for an urban environment---or a rural one, for that matter---and of course steam turbines begin to get more economical. It is of course cheaper to make a power boiler than it is a gasifier, it just requires a level of skill and experience most people don't have and is better suited for a neighborhood or village-scale CHP installation.

Victory is an all stainless steel gasifier. I think it's around 17k now. That is just for the gasifier, no genny. They take the opposite approach as GEK--no electronics, just build it with better materials so we can run it hot enough to work on different feedstocks.

I have two classes of gasifiers I am interested in--one that can run a 10k genny and one that can run a vehicle.

My 16 YO son SHOCKED me and bought himself an old pickup as his first vehicle with the intention to convert it to woodgas. It will be an interesting shop project

The Vulcan gasifiers are designed according to standard Imbert dimensions. The size of the hearth in the M series will allow it to power up to a 25 hp engine, and the E series will go up to 50 hp. Personally, I think Vulcan is doing things the right way. They are making a simple, affordable, and compact gasifier. One design of the Vulcan gasifier is particularly good... there is very little restriction in the hearth area which minimizes the possibility of fuel bridging there. This design also makes the unit more compact and lightweight.

R Scott wrote:My 16 YO son SHOCKED me and bought himself an old pickup as his first vehicle with the intention to convert it to woodgas. It will be an interesting shop project

Check out www.driveonwood.com for good resources. Also consider dual-fueling the truck with a small gasifier (like the E-series Vulcan). This should make a simpler conversion as you don't have to build the gasifier, and the cooling system will be a lot simpler. Consider that a small gasifier like the Vulcan will produce enough gas to drive a truck most of the time (except during hill climbing and rapid acceleration - gasoline will make up the difference here). In other words, a small gasifier that's a fraction of the size and weight of a unit required for a full conversion can reduce gasoline consumption dramatically (probably by 80% or so).

Keep in mind heating is a necessity and vehicle fuel is a luxury. Using gasifiers for vehicle fuel all of the heat is lost. Same as it is for petroleum of course, only energy in post-carbon future will need to be maximized better so we don't end up cutting down all our forests for energy (a la Haiti). Considering what a superfluous luxury automobiles are and how simple it is to make electric vehicles, it might make more sense to use a combined heat and power gasifier to make electricity at the same time it was heating your home and recharge an electric vehicle or NEV for local commuting.

Wood gas runs very poorly in larger, high compression engines that might be used in farm trucks to get produce to market. In which case home-brewed ethanol or biodiesel or even using the syngas from your gasifier through a Fischer-Tropsch catalyst to make some F-T diesel.

I love gasifiers, I think homes of the future will use them for combined heat and power but there is no technology that does not need to be used wisely in order to allow the natural resources used to fuel them at a rate that is greater than what is used.

Warren Weisman wrote:Wood gas runs very poorly in larger, high compression engines that might be used in farm trucks to get produce to market. In which case home-brewed ethanol or biodiesel or even using the syngas from your gasifier through a Fischer-Tropsch catalyst to make some F-T diesel. .

This claim is simply incorrect. In fact, the truth is the exact opposite. Wood gas can tolerate very high compression ratios (up to 17), and the reduced energy density of wood gas makes larger displacement engines ideal. Wayne Keith (a farmer) has been fueling modern full size gas trucks on his farm with 100% wood gas for years with excellent results, and tests at Auburn University verified the engine thermal efficiency of one of his trucks is increased by 37% on wood gas as compared to gasoline (and with lower emissions). Wayne Keith routinely hauls trailers loaded with 15,000 pounds of hay bales with his wood gas truck. He has also taken an unloaded truck to 84 mph on level ground.

Also, it's possible to dual-fuel Diesel engines with wood gas by admitting wood gas with the intake air and reducing Diesel injection to only enough for ignition (generally only 10% of the Diesel fuel normally required). I am aware of the results of a test of a logging truck in Sweden that showed excellent results.

Big difference between running a vehicle and running a vehicle efficiently. You can run a diesel on windshield wiper fluid. That doesn't make it the best fuel choice. You can only fit x volume of gas or liquid in a cylinder at one time. At 135 BTU/cu.ft. wood gas compared to 1,000 BTU/cu.ft. for natural gas or 140,000 BTU for a gallon of diesel, wood gas efficiency is non-existent. Your fuel would take up all your cargo space.

The mad scientist in me wants to connect a gasifier system to my RMH kilns. Really, it is pretty close already. Capture the heat for the kiln, capture the produced gas to drive a 7 kilowatt generator I have around - and then power a molder off that generator, which will produce waste that goes into the gasifier, which continues the loop.


Dang close to a perpetual motion machine... lol

Warren Weisman wrote:Keep in mind heating is a necessity and vehicle fuel is a luxury. Using gasifiers for vehicle fuel all of the heat is lost. Same as it is for petroleum of course, only energy in post-carbon future will need to be maximized better so we don't end up cutting down all our forests for energy (a la Haiti). Considering what a superfluous luxury automobiles are and how simple it is to make electric vehicles, it might make more sense to use a combined heat and power gasifier to make electricity at the same time it was heating your home and recharge an electric vehicle or NEV for local commuting.

It is an interesting idea, but you need to look at how you use a vehicle. I either drive a mile or 100+ miles, very little in-between. I could use a plug-in EV for the local trips, but not the long ones. The long trips are just about perfect for a load of woodgas.

The goal is to build a woodgas generator that runs on small material--stuff that is fast growing (coppiced, trimmings, etc.). Things that are not lumber or firewood, things that might be mulch or RMH feedstocks. Hardwood scraps from a cabinet shop would be perfect. If you could run on sawdust, I would be set.

It doesn't have to be as BTU efficient--it just has to be more efficient from an input ($$) perspective. The problem with WG is making the feedstock efficiently.

Warren Weisman wrote:Big difference between running a vehicle and running a vehicle efficiently. You can run a diesel on windshield wiper fluid. That doesn't make it the best fuel choice. You can only fit x volume of gas or liquid in a cylinder at one time. At 135 BTU/cu.ft. wood gas compared to 1,000 BTU/cu.ft. for natural gas or 140,000 BTU for a gallon of diesel, wood gas efficiency is non-existent.

Wood gas is mixed with air at a 1:1 ratio by volume for complete combustion (a lot less air than most other fuel gases). Therefore, all else equal, an engine takes in a much larger volume of wood gas per intake stroke compared to most other fuel gases. Therefore, the energy available in a charge is not nearly so low as these numbers suggest. In fact, it's close to what natural gas provides. It's well known that an engine fueled by wood gas suffers a loss of power. However, this loss is not due primarily to the lower energy density of wood gas. Rather, the low flame speed of wood gas leads to inefficient operation at higher engine speeds where the engine power is rated. At low engine speeds this characteristic of wood gas actually helps to increase the thermal efficiency of the engine (along with buying time for more complete combustion of the simple fuel gases in wood gas). Delaying combustion at low engine speeds leads to higher peak cylinder pressures at a favorable crank angle for more torque, whereas a faster burning fuel loses a higher percentage of it's heat to the coolant before the crank angle advances to provide this increased torque. This is great for getting the most out of a fuel from a big, slow moving engine (and Wayne Keith's trucks show this with 37% higher thermal efficiency on wood gas compared to gasoline). Yes, the peak power is reduced. This is a primary reason why I believe a dual-fueled system can be ideal (particularly a Diesel conversion, assuming a suitable engine is available). A dual-fueled system retains the liquid fuel to provide the additional power when needed. Also, note the added benefit that a small wood gasifier used to dual-fuel a vehicle can also be used in a stationary cogeneration application.

Marcos, I didn't mean to criticize gasification, I think it's terrific for stationary use. But watch those Victory Gasworks videos where he runs the big 20 kW generator and then welds with it and almost kills the engine. It just doesn't have the power for low-end torque under a load. It would do the same climbing hills in a vehicle.

Warren Weisman wrote:Marcos, I didn't mean to criticize gasification, I think it's terrific for stationary use. But watch those Victory Gasworks videos where he runs the big 20 kW generator and then welds with it and almost kills the engine. It just doesn't have the power for low-end torque under a load. It would do the same climbing hills in a vehicle.

Yes, I know... I'm merely pointing out what I believe to be misconceptions. I agree with you that stationary cogeneration is the best application for a wood gas engine system. Also, there is no doubt that the performance and convenience provided by liquid fuels is superior to a wood gasifier. However, I believe that comparing wood to a refined liquid fuel is flawed. The benefits of wood gasification do not include convenience or performance. The benefits include energy independence and potentially lower fuel costs. I referenced the work of Wayne Keith because his example is probably the best available. Mr. Keith just happens to be in a position where fueling his trucks with wood makes a lot of sense, and he shows clearly that it can be made to work a lot better than most believe. Of course, it won't make sense for most people. Now, in a truly sustainable setting (let's assume no fossil fuels are available) I believe biomass gasification could be an ideal transport technology... but that's another argument.

One of the main points I want to get across is that anyone who considers converting a vehicle to run on wood gas should attempt a dual-fuel configuration that uses a much smaller gasifier. I believe this general approach can minimize many of the disadvantages. Also, I believe the Vulcan gasifier is a good candidate for it's simple, compact, and low cost design.

thought the kit WAS 300 ?

Morgan Morrigan wrote:thought the kit WAS 300 ?

it is, but doesn't include all the parts.

Morgan Morrigan wrote:these guys are doing it , cheap. well cheaper.

http://www.vulcangasifier.com/

Such a very amazing link!
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Morgan Morrigan wrote:thought the kit WAS 300 ?

The kit is now 500 and I do believe includes some of the parts that were harder to source.

One of the main points I want to get across is that anyone who considers converting a vehicle to run on wood gas should attempt a dual-fuel configuration that uses a much smaller gasifier. I believe this general approach can minimize many of the disadvantages. Also, I believe the Vulcan gasifier is a good candidate for it's simple, compact, and low cost design.

I've been trying to decide on a 7.3 litre diesel to use with a WVO conversion, or a cheap gas pickup truck with syngas. How could I regulate a split of diesel/syngas as you suggested? I didn't see anything on the websites selling the Vulcan or the GEK from All Power Labs.

Steve Bartlett wrote:I've been trying to decide on a 7.3 litre diesel to use with a WVO conversion, or a cheap gas pickup truck with syngas. How could I regulate a split of diesel/syngas as you suggested? I didn't see anything on the websites selling the Vulcan or the GEK from All Power Labs.

Hey Steve. First, I recommend you contact people who know more than I. To that end check out the forums at driveonwood.com. Next, consult the Handbook for Biomass Downdraft Gasifier Engine Systems (available on line). That will provide a basic intro. You might also contact the engineers at All Power Labs as they have a large stationary Diesel generator currently dual fueled with a large gasifier (it's a 100 KW, 1800 rpm unit).

I can only discuss what I would try first if I were setting out to make the conversion (all theory, no practice... well, very little practice). First, I assume a vehicle application, right? I would try restricting the air intake to a Diesel just enough to increase manifold vacuum to ensure there is enough differential pressure across the gasifier for operation. The ideal setting would be the one that provides just enough air flow through at idle to keep the gasifier hot enough to make a clean gas, but also does not pull too much air through the gasifier at high engine speeds that it overheats. In practice, the former is most important as I believe the natural restriction in the wood gas supply line would serve to limit the d/p across the gasifier at higher engine speeds. Next, put a hand operated throttle valve that controls wood gas to the intake manifold. The throttle valve cannot fully shut during operation so that the engine is always pulling just enough wood gas to keep the gasifier hot under all conditions (especially idle). Since Diesels always operate with excess air, there is no need for a separate air mixing valve. Ideally, the fuel gas from the gasifier can be sufficient to drive the vehicle at the desired speeds on level ground with Diesel retained only for acceleration and hill climbing as required.

NOTE: The principle I am relying on here is basically that any combustible gas admitted to the cylinders up to the stoichiometric limit will be combusted a long with the Diesel fuel admitted by the injectors. Therefore, the combustible gas admitted (wood gas in this case) will displace the Diesel fuel otherwise used. In practice, it seems that depressing the accelerator fully with the wood gas throttle wide open would generate a lot of smoke/soot at there would not be sufficient air to combust all the fuel. Also, there is likely to be some loss of power since the intake air is likely going to have to throttled somewhat to provide the d/p across the gasifier.

NOTE: I am aware of a stationary Diesel generator in Sweden that locked out the Diesel injector rack to deliver a set amount of fuel equal to idle. The governor was then used to operate a throttle valve that admitted air to the engine. Closing off air to the engine increased manifold vacuum, and this pulled harder on the gasifier to admit more wood gas, and this was used as a speed control. This same principle could be used in a vehicle setting to control torque, but it doesn't seem appropriate when using a very small gasifier, which is why I suggested that the air to the engine be restricted (not throttled).

ADDENDUM: I fully expect the folks over at driveonwood.com to recommend against a dual fuel configuration. They will cite one legitimate danger where the fuel in the gasifier might be consumed while you're driving. This would be bad as it would consume the charcoal at the base of the unit and generate really high temps that would, well... can you say "meltdown"? However, one can always be aware of the fuel load, a high temp alarm can be installed, and most important this configuration drives the vehicle primarily on wood gas, so as the fuel level drops the fuel gas quality drops and you would notice this rather quickly as a sharp power loss (time to shut the main cut off valve to the wood gas line). Also, my experience is that wood gassers are an idealistic type (one reason I like them), and they see a dual fuel configuration as sort of a cop out (impure, so to speak). Me, I'm idealistic, but even more practical. If it ends up working well, then why not?

Hey thanks Marcos. I did more checking on the All Labs site, and they do have some info on the dual fuel idea. It seemed (I'll have to check again) that they said larger engines like eight cylinder were too big. They said what you said about restricting flow and that is how the wood gas is drawn in.

I'm out looking at pickup trucks today, and if I go syngas it'll probably end up being a gas truck. I love diesels, especially F-350's, but WVO seems like such a lot of trouble these days and getting worse.

Marcos Buenijo wrote:
Hey Steve. First, I recommend you contact people who know more than I. To that end check out the forums at driveonwood.com. Next, consult the Handbook for Biomass Downdraft Gasifier Engine Systems (available on line). That will provide a basic intro. You might also contact the engineers at All Power Labs as they have a large stationary Diesel generator currently dual fueled with a large gasifier (it's a 100 KW, 1800 rpm unit).
First, I assume a vehicle application, right? I would try restricting the air intake to a Diesel just enough to increase manifold vacuum to ensure there is enough differential pressure across the gasifier for operation. The ideal setting would be the one that provides just enough air flow through at idle to keep the gasifier hot enough to make a clean gas, but also does not pull too much air through the gasifier at high engine speeds that it overheats.

Steve Bartlett wrote:Hey thanks Marcos. I did more checking on the All Labs site, and they do have some info on the dual fuel idea. It seemed (I'll have to check again) that they said larger engines like eight cylinder were too big. They said what you said about restricting flow and that is how the wood gas is drawn in.

I'm out looking at pickup trucks today, and if I go syngas it'll probably end up being a gas truck. I love diesels, especially F-350's, but WVO seems like such a lot of trouble these days and getting worse.

Well, I know they're dual fueling a large 8 cylinder Diesel at All Power Labs. Also, there are many cases of large trucks including logging trucks being dual fueled (Diesel engines dual fueled with wood gas) in Sweden. In other words, I know it can be done. However, I wouldn't personally play around with a Diesel conversion unless I got really lucky on getting a Diesel truck at a great price. Also, there is a lot more knowledge out there on converting gas engines, especially gas trucks (see driveonwood.com). However, I doubt you're going to find specific information on a dual-fuel configuration. Personally, I believe strongly that a dual-fuel conversion can be a practical alternative. However, I cannot provide specifics as I haven't done it... I can only provide suggestions based on research and my own considerations. In converting a gas engine to dual-fuel the basic approach, what I would first try is the same as the Diesel, but I would provide an air mixing valve downstream the wood gas throttle valve and admit the air/wood gas mixture to the intake manifold downstream the MAP sensor. The idea here is that a stoichiometric mixture of air/wood gas should be provided to the cylinders at all times allowing the air admitted through the MAP sensor to be matched with the fuel admitted by the injectors (which is accomplished by the stock control equipment). What I would hope to accomplish is the ability to operate the vehicle more or less normally during city driving (lots of stops) with a minimal amount of wood gas and air admitted to keep the gasifier hot at all times when the wood gas throttle is not operated (it would be cracked open to pull enough air to keep the gasifier hot). However, I would like to be able to set the wood gas throttle to fuel the vehicle primarily on wood gas while cruising, then be able to see appreciable power when required by using gasoline fuel. So, it's hoped that cruising down the highway on level ground at constant speed can be done by setting the wood gas throttle while consuming gasoline at the same rate as during idle, then operate the stock throttle pedal for acceleration and hill climbing as required. It seems this would be possible by opening the stock air throttle which would reduce the draw on the gasifier and pull more air and gasoline into the cylinders. As long as the wood gas and air admitted through the auxiliary supply line is more or less stoichiometric, then it should work. Of course, there are always devils in the details. In practice, I suspect it would take some learning to operate the thing properly, assuming it can be made to work well enough in the first place. I've no doubt it's possible, but can it be practical?

NOTE: A primary motivation for me to consider the dual-fuel configuration is to allow using a commercially available gasifier (less fabrication - and much smaller), and avoid large cooling and condensing systems (in particular, the All Power Labs unit has extensive air preheating that reduces the temperature of the fuel gases dramatically so most of the cooling is accomplished within the unit itself). In short, I believe it's possible to devise a much smaller system that will still dramatically reduce gasoline consumption simply because a gas engine in a vehicle normally requires only a small percentage of its rated power that can be provided by a much smaller gasifier.

One of the issues with dual-fueling a diesel is the TURBO. You don't really want to run syngas through the turbo unless you really have your heat under control, and you don't really want to run a pressurized gasifier. Both can lead to BOOM or CO poisoning.

Producer gas has a ton of potential. We haven't even scraped the tip of the iceberg yet. I predict that the gasifiers currently on the market will be obsolete within a few more years. All the pieces of the puzzle are out there now, but we haven't combined them into one unit yet.

In a vehicle, the exhaust might be piped in to keep the reaction from getting too hot, or melting down as someone put it. This is how the charcoal gasifiers are kept from overheating. That would also help regulate the flow of gas to the engine, possibly helping this situation of having to set the suction from the air intake just right to pull producer gas in.

Speaking of charcoal, it should be possible to clean up dirty producer gas by piping it up through a seperate chamber of hot charcoal. That would allow putting waste feedstock in a chamber over a fire, piping the dirty producer gas up through hot charcoal in a second chamber, then through a filter and cooler and into the engine.
This would allow for a truly multifuel gasifier---paper, cardboard, agricultural waste, manure, forest trimmings, plastic, weeds (cudzu), grass cuttings, dead bodies, ect... Could even use wood if you ran out of everything else. Charcoal can be made from the same waste feedstocks, eliminating wood from this entire process and saving trees.

(Just checking to see if you all are paying attention. The dead bodies feedstock was a joke. After all, the moisture content in dead bodies is far too high for gasification.)

Induction heating is another area to explore, especially in a vehicle. Spinning magnets around a ferrous metal chamber would heat that chamber and gasify the feedstock inside that chamber. Do the same to the second chamber of charcoal. Use the vehicle's engine to spin those magnets. Pump a bit of the vehicle's exhaust into the first chamber to move the gas through the system. Something to consider.

Also, hydrogen is a constituent of producer gas. Externally heating the feedstock may allow for a higher moisture content in the feedstock, since the feedstock is heated externally. Putting the dirty producer gas through hot coals in the second chamber may increase the hydrogen content, making for a more energy dense fuel. There is a metal screen (steel or maybe an aluminum alloy?) that is supposed to act as a catylist for separating the hydrogen from the oxygen in the water vapor. Sounds like a good thing to me, so if you know what metal screen does this, let all us know.

Then, there are all the other needs gasification can cover. Home heating and hot water heating. A source of heat for fuel alcohol distillation.

Not too many places on earth a gasifier like this wouldn't work. Landfills could be a thing of the past. Heck, old landfills might be dug up for the energy.
This or something like it is what will replace the current gasifiers we see for sale now, IMHO. BTW, I'm working on a multifuel gasifier now and it's going very well. I'm positive this type of gasification is doable.

What kills me is that Victory and GEK folks know far more about gasification than I, so they should have been the first to figure out how to accomplish a multifuel gasifier. Oh well, innovate or become obsolete.

BUMP! I think this is a neat discussion! Has anyone built a system for cars like Wayne Keith's Woodgas System and gotten it to work? What were the biggest difficulties in implementing the design? How much did it cost to build? has anything gone wrong before, during, or after the build? This question is not apply to just the device itself and its build; it may include neighbors filing complaints about it, government interference, dogs stealing parts, etc.. If there was an issue, what happened and how was the issue resolved?

Dave Burton wrote:BUMP! I think this is a neat discussion! Has anyone built a system for cars like Wayne Keith's Woodgas System and gotten it to work? What were the biggest difficulties in implementing the design? How much did it cost to build? has anything gone wrong before, during, or after the build? This question is not apply to just the device itself and its build; it may include neighbors filing complaints about it, government interference, dogs stealing parts, etc.. If there was an issue, what happened and how was the issue resolved?

I'm a member of Keith's forum on driveonwood.com. There are lots of people over there as well as the Yahoo Woodgas group that have built his gasifiers. The biggest thing about wood gas for an engine is to filter, filter, filter. An appropriate design that produces low tar is a good start, then you really have to make sure your filtration is top notch.

Check out the Charcoal gasifiers on Keith's forum, it's a simpler design just to get started. because you are suing charcoal, the need for filtration is reduced, and it's easier for beginners.

The Power pallet from All Power Labs is unquestionably the best gasifier in its power range for the money. APL is really close to having the unit just be a plug and play appliance and they are still making improvements that can be added onto earlier models. They just lowered the price for the 20kw unit to about $25k. It will run continuously at 16kw for days at a time and the units can be grid tied or paralleled for larger industrial power needs.

That kind of investment pays back quickly if you are:
a. off setting 20-30 gal/day of diesel for a 20kw diesel generator
b. already buying power at peak hours
c. having shutdowns from an unreliable source of electricity
d. you're paying for the transport and disposal of a woody bi-product (nut processing plant, stone fruit cannery ect).

I'm originally from Berkeley and Oakland so I've got a little pride.

If you only need to run your water pump at 3 hp once a week or it's for home power outage the power pallet might be over kill

Charcoal Gasifiers are also very cool, look up the crossfire.

my 2cents

As far as making the best use of fuel for those of us who heat our homes for 6 months of the year it makes more sense to produce charcoal and harvest the waste heat from the production. It can then be used to run a mobile engine, or run a stationary in the warm half of the year. The alternative is to use a wood fired gasifier and dump large amounts of heat to the air.