How do you protect your nuts from critters

I’ve been gathering tree nuts and seeds, mostly black walnuts. Now I want to plant them, so they can properly over winter and hopefully germinate in the spring. I’ve already donated half of my walnuts to squirrels and chipmunks and I’m sure one or two will go buried and forgotten. The rest, I’d like to grow to trees. I’m growing in deep 12 to 14 inch containers so that I can take them with me when I move next summer and plant out in a future food forest. I think that’s deep enough for one years worth of tap root. In the past, in my pre permies days, I would have covered the container with horticultural fleece with is polyester. I’d rather not go down that road and it’s not something I’ve seen in the US - it probably exists but there’s no point in searching for something I don’t want to use.

So what do you do to protect your nuts from critters?

depends on the nut! i’ve found out the hard way that really attractive nuts like chestnuts need to be protected with metal - hardware cloth or similar. seen wood, plastics of various sort, etc get chewed through in surprising speed. nursery beds, pots, you name it. i suspect in my area, walnuts buried relatively deeply in pots wouldn’t get threatened badly by rodents, but the pressure may be different where you are. at the nut processing facility, cured nuts need to stay under serious lock and key - the squirrels already know what’s there and are waiting for the tiniest slip in defense.

an alternative, for nuts you want to sprout, is in a bag of damp (not wet) sawdust or sand in the fridge for the winter. that’s sufficient stratification. they’re usually just starting to show root tips at planting time in the spring, they don’t start pushing roots during the freezing months.

greg mosser wrote:the squirrels already know what’s there and are waiting for the tiniest slip in defense.

That made me laugh! I made the mistake of thinking I could leave the walnuts to cure at the back of the garage. Today when I opened I was greeted by a scurrying chipmunk. Wire cloth it is then . . . I don’t have fridge space. It would be a definite ‘no no’ in the kitchen fridge and the basement fridge is already full of mushroom spore, ferments etc.

It makes me laugh cause the woman here, recently retired and trying to find ways to occupy her time became obsessed with collecting black walnuts this year and made several more trips after we had gone together and collected a truck bed full, on top of our own from here in the yard.

We have a big pile in the driveway under a rug in process of being dehulled by running over. And two big metal garbage cans full of hulled ones, plus more hulled ones not sealed up good. Of course the squirrels were happily swiping those on the porch as fast as they can, which is pretty fast. So the woman decided rather than securing those on the porch she would just uncover the ones in the driveway and let the squirrels have them. It didn't work and I know why, I heard the squirrels talking and they said "what the hell's wrong with that woman, we don't want to mess with the hulls when all them clean ones are right over there." Two 30 gallon cans of the best ones is enough anyway so I told the squirrels to take them all. It will just end up with more walnut trees in the neighborhood.

greg mosser wrote:i suspect in my area, walnuts buried relatively deeply in pots wouldn’t get threatened badly by rodents,

Not so bad with walnuts here but pecan and hickory have to be protected or they will dig them up. They are both far less common than walnuts so I guess they regard them as treats.

Edward Norton wrote:
So what do you do to protect your nuts from critters?

Heavy pants have always been adequate for me, but if you have extra tempting nuts, maybe an armoured cup?

On pots, I use hardware cloth. At least it isn't plastic.. someday I will have a ratproof greenhouse.

For growing from seed then the only way i know is do it in a greenhouse.

Squirrels and chipmunks generally wont bother your greenhouse unless they are starving. I setup squirrel boxes and feed squirrels with cheap bird food on the opposite side of the house from the greenhouse. And hunt them in open season.

For food forest with lots of nuts and acorns my plan is to keep a family of weasels mustela freneta or mustela ermine for dealing with ground squirrels, chipmunks, mice and rats. And for dealing with tree squirrels planning to keep a family of Fishers (pekannia pennati). Which primarily feed on tree squirrels.

Plan is to keep them semi domesticated, i.e. feeding the weasels if they are hungry to avoid them getting extripated.  The Mustela weasels are a good replacement for a house cat. Unlike a house cat the female Mustela can follow mice into their burrows to eat them. So if you keep mustela female in your home as a pet then they can genuinely eat all your mice, cause they can go in all the same places.

The male Mustela are big enough to eat rats, rabbits and squirrels as well. The Mustela generally take up residence in old chipmonk burrows.

Curious...how do you get semi domesticated Fishers?  

As a part of the weasel family (close to the wolverine) are you not concerned with them being an issue with other stock on the homestead such as chickens, ducks, cats, dogs etc.?

Does anyone have experience with the Behrens Locking lid galvanized pails?  https://www.behrens.com/product-category/cans/locking-lid-cans/

Is this food safe?

***NOTE:  they are NOT waterproof, for dry storage only.  Could one place a bead of caulk or silicone around the bottom, on the inside to make them waterproof or is it unsafe to use for water regardless?

These might solve a host of problems is they are safe for food/feed or can be altered to be waterproof.

Lorinne Anderson wrote:Curious...how do you get semi domesticated Fishers?  

As a part of the weasel family (close to the wolverine) are you not concerned with them being an issue with other stock on the homestead such as chickens, ducks, cats, dogs etc.?

Any animal that is raised from birth can be domesticated, even if it takes a few generations. So certainly it is possible to train them to not take chickens, cats, ducks, dogs, for example if during their juvenile stage you have electrified decoys of the animals you do not wish them to attack. Similarly feed them the species you do want them to eat, like mice, rats, squirrels or w/e. Then can test with live animals to see if the training transfers properly before releasing them into the food forest.

That said, I have a different methodology when it comes to food forest gardening, in that I am not really interested in being a prisoner to animal husbandry, I prefer my animals to take care of themselves.  So instead of chickens the plan is simply to create habitat for ruffed grouse, instead of cats have mustela weasels, instead of domestic ducks have migratory ducks, instead of dogs make friends with the coywolves.

I am not interested in an antagonistic relationship with nature, I much rather have a co-operative relationship with nature. Any animals I have should be able to take care of themselves if I wish to leave to go to another site.

Like cats and dogs are possible, but they would simply have to be varieties that can fend for themselves, like norway/siberian/van cat or husky.
Personally I'm not a dog fan though, and I consider cats to be rather needy.

I'm okay with breeding some wild animals for release, or doing live trap and relocation as that is a time limited proposition.

I have a neighbour who is a cow farmer, and he has to get up like every day of the week including weekends before the sunrise to go shovel shit and feed the cows. No thanks. I rather have a food forest that provides habitat for deer which I can hunt in the open season.  Never gonna have to shovel deer feces or worry about not having fed or watered them.

In simple terms God provides us all that we need, instead of forcing middle-eastern european animals into an inappropriate context, I rather use what God has provided in the native context. Sure I may introduce some plants or animals which have a decent chance of contributing to the eco-system, but ultimately I want it to be a self managing system.
Instead of having to micro manage it, I want to simply be helping it along.

For semi-domestication of weasels, it is as I mentioned before somewhere that the main point is to get them to learn that if they are hungry or cold they can come in my home and get some food and warmth. Mustela weasels can in return eat the mice in the house or in the food caches -- much more effectively than cats BTW. Mustela weasels are actually pretty small, they are about the size of a squirrel (180-600 grams). Pekania pennanati fishers are closer to the size of small cat (4-6 lb).

Weasels like fishers are probably fairly smelly, so you don't really want the males in the home. The female mustela weasels will be able to get in the same way the mice do. So don't even need a cat door or anything.

I guess really the only possibly benefit of a cat over a weasel is they may be easier to pet. Though there are plenty of people who keep European pole cats (ferrets), which are about the size of a fisher. So within a few generations it should be viable to have a pettable version of a fisher. Similar to how in Russia they managed to breed pettable versions of grey foxes.

If you have a weasel family living near your home and-or greenhouse, then they will manage any rodents that attempt to get your nuts or stash, no problem. Squirrels may think of dogs and cats as somewhat of a nuisance, but the chances of a dog or cat actually catching a squirrel are fairly slim, wheras for a fisher they are fairly high.

Ah, I reside in Canada; it is illegal to be in possession of native wildlife here, let alone "breed them", hence my curiosity. I did not know Fishers lived outside of North America, my ignorance is showing!

Lorinne Anderson wrote:Ah, I reside in Canada; it is illegal to be in possession of native wildlife here, let alone "breed them", hence my curiosity. I did not know Fishers lived outside of North America, my ignorance is showing!

Ah that's actually not quite accurate, there are permits and licenses for just about everything. For example hunting and trapping licenses lets people be in possesion of many game animals including fishers.

In terms of fishers. We have lots of mink farms which are very similar in every way. There are fisher breeding and reintroduction programs in Ontrario as well. So if someone wanted to help develop a less flighty more pettable form of fisher that can succeed in extripated areas that may be viable.

We also have deer farms, poultry farms. People raise northern bobwhite quail, grouse, turkeys, etc.

Yeah some endangered animals like northern bobwhite you can not catch in the wild and need a permit for relocation efforts.
But lots of people livetrap and relocate regular animals all the time, such as "pest relocation". And there are domesticated varieties of northern bobwhites for instance that you can breed without any permit.

Similarly for certain dangerous animals like deer you need a permit as well. But yeah where there is a will there is a way.

If in doubt you can contact your local conservation authority for how to move forward. Though the goals of permaculture and conservation authorities is pretty much the same, to help have habitat and a diversity of wild animals.
Fishers are native to all of ontario so getting help with returning them to areas where they have been extripated should be fairly straightforward.


Here I found some ontario legislation for you:
https://www.ontario.ca/page/harass-capture-or-kill-wild-animal-damaging-private-property

The easiest way to get some target wild animal like weasel or opossum is to call some wildlife removal services and tell them which animals you are interested in receiving, they are always looking for places they can put pest animals.

The next easiest possiblity is to get a trapping license or setup your own pest removal service. For breeding them in captivity you would need a license. But for breeding them outdoors by providing them with nesting boxes and food you do not.

Can make sure with your municipal bylaws, as some cities don't allow feeding mamals,  but in rural areas shouldn't be a problem.

"release captured live wildlife within 1 kilometre of where they were captured".

This is a rule many are unaware of - this was taken from the link posted; in BC the distance is half that. The reason is to prevent possible disease spread within mammalian populations.  It is believed this is how rabies was actually spread throughout the north eastern US and up into Canada.  

A lack of raccoons to hunt led to the live trapping and relocation of animals from the southern US to upstate New York; sadly, apparently some were incubating/carrying the virus which then spread to other animals, became entrenched, and spread. The same possibility exists for fungal, bacterial and even parasitic species introduction or spread of non beneficial or contagious agents.

It is essentially, illegal, to be in possession of native wildlife in Canada, ALIVE (you have no longer than 24hrs if using a live trap or potentially face cruelty to animal charges). Neither the mink farms (now being shut down in BC) or the FALLOW deer farms are native species.

Yes, there are permits for exceptional purposes (ALL difficult to obtain) such as a permit for wildlife rehabilitation, zoo permit or "ambassador animal" permit for non releaseable wildlife. Yes, there are permits for scientifically, carefully monitored, breeding for reintroduction programs.

None of these permits would EVER tolerate intentionally taming, domesticating or otherwise altering their natural way of being - as this would NOT be in the best interests of an animal expected to be released back to the wild. There is no such thing as pet raccoons, opossums, squirrels, foxes etc. IN Canada.

Feeding of wildlife here is generally illegal also, as is intentionally or UNintentionally attracting wildlife (apples, even windfall - you are required to pick and collect all fruit - can lead to fines here for attracting bear). Unsecured garbage or compost will also garner you a hefty fine. A woman in BC just received huge penalties for intentionally feeding bears; others have been fined for keeping "rescued" injured or orphaned wildlife as pets, even if not caged...

The rules are VERY strict in Canada; especially in BC where one is subject to a fine of $10,000 if caught in possession of LIVE native wildlife.