Please review letter re:Getting permission for driveway & logging

Updated with revised letter

Regarding my previous post, I have one shot to convince my neighbors to agree to a break in the treeline and short term logging activities.

Please review this draft and offer any suggestions.

Since this is a draft, I removed the names of the logger and the referenced mechanic. Those sentences might sound a little awkward but that’s why. In the version to be mailed out I'll be plugging in the names.

I have not read the letter.  I would speak with my neighbors face-to-face.  You may want to talk to the logger and see how elaborate of permission you need.  As a retired mental health administrator my experience has been to not exceed one side of one page.  One half of one side of a page would be much better in terms of getting a positive reply.  

I agree, that negotations are best done in person.
And then afterwards some simple paperwork can be signed.
(I neighbor John Doe at 123 Main Street don't have a problem with Vanessa putting in a driveway and grading 0.34 acres for a garden/homesite with the resulting lumber being sold to ABC Mills.  


As for the negotation maybe the generic :

Hello John Doe/Mary Jane,
(Positive common ground e.g. I like the summer/flowers/nature)
I feel negative (about my health, and food source)
can you do xyz (allow me to put in a driveway and no-till garden filled with nuts, fruits, herbs, mushroom and "wild/native vegetables)
so that I can feel better (I think my health will improve/etc)
(optionally and this will not cost you anything infact you can get ABC compensation of e.g. honey comb when I harvest my honey, etc),
thank you

If they seem hesitant you can ask them what are they most concerned about and then try and minimize it. (privacy/windbreak = okay I will plant x amount of nut trees) You can also see if they have a particular passion and tap into it. (You are sad about all the bee death, well I will not use any insecticide in fact I plan on planting alot of meadow herbs/flowers so that the local pollinators will have a safe place). You would know your neighbor best but I wouldn't use too many new word (permaculture/food forest), but I would try to use regular words to paint a picture to make then want to hire me to transform their property too.

I lost interest as soon as you got into politics.

An old logger that has done this hundreds of times, might have a generic form...

Joseph Lofthouse wrote:I lost interest as soon as you got into politics.

An old logger that has done this hundreds of times, might have a generic form...

Oh, I apologize for wasting your time then.

I agree with Joseph. No politics, no worldviews, no permaculture.

Keep it short and to the point. Present the facts and details of the work that will be done. Do not ask for permission for the project, unless there is a specific item requiring their consent. Ask if they have any questions or concerns and say you would be happy to discuss them.

If possible, get the logger to look over your letter before you send it. He'll have suggestions, since he knows what people need to hear.

To prevent the neighbor's eyes from glazing over, I would lose the entire second, third and fifth paragraphs.

Otherwise, before they even find out what request involves, the neighbors have to get past a discourse on the second amendment, health care, food weaponization, bioengineering, cancer, power and money, grocery stores, god, broken systems, Hippocates, systems design, food forests and permaculture.

After discovering what the request is, they learn that it's fine to say "no", except for acorn flour, reputable mechanics and auto repair.

Douglas Alpenstock wrote:I agree with Joseph. No politics, no worldviews, no permaculture.

Keep it short and to the point. Present the facts and details of the work that will be done. Do not ask for permission for the project, unless there is a specific item requiring their consent. Ask if they have any questions or concerns and say you would be happy to discuss them.

If possible, get the logger to look over your letter before you send it. He'll have suggestions, since he knows what people need to hear.

I have one shot to get this project accomplished. I’ve spent days thinking about why I think this is important and those are my reasons. I’m just not savvy enough to see that food that doesn’t wreck your health & put you in the hospital is now a political issue.

Here is my latest revision if it’s not too much trouble to look it over.

Without being directly involved it sort of sounds like the logging outfit wants to cut right of way. It's to make the road passable by the log trucks more or less.

Your easement likely is for the road surface only and the right of way doesn't extend to say 20ft from the centerline on either side of the road, and so does not grant you the authority to cut trees on the sides. So you have to ask.

Now, I agree with you, why would someone let you do this? Perhaps you can sell the point that the loggers will fix the road after operations are complete. Gravel, drainage, grading... it will be better than ever probably. Of course this will cut into your profit from the timber cause they won't do it for free. But they will do it 99% of the time, where I live at least. Another selling point where I live is they don't jut cut trees but they brush/mow the sides of the road. Increasing sight lines for safety and creating a firebreak.

Leave the political crap out of the conversation. No one cares, I promise.

First get smart on exactly what the logger wants to do. Then just ask the person who land this affects, in person, if a local loggin outfit can do some clearing on the road into your property. Outline the benefits. Shoot maybe they have trees to sell and will jump on board. Don't start preachin about unrelated things. Don't even ask other neighbors in the area. Not their business.

Vanessa, your second draft is much, much better!

I like how you worked in the fire risk part.

While you were writing, I was jotting down a few ideas you can borrow if you want:

Hello, neighbor!

I wanted to let you know that I am planning to clear and and grade the 0.34 acre slice connecting my main property square to the road for this project. This will give the gardening space I have always wanted.

My logger will be logging and helping me sell the timber to the local lumber mill. He says I should get your input on this. Do you have any questions? Please let me know if there's any problem and we can discuss it. You can reach me at ______.

Thanks!

P.S., Here's a rough sketch of the area we are clearing.

Dan makes an excellent point. If the logger is cutting an access road across someone else's property, that definitely requires permission.

Much better.

Dan Fish wrote:Without being directly involved it sort of sounds like the logging outfit wants to cut right of way. It's to make the road passable by the log trucks more or less.

Your easement likely is for the road surface only and the right of way doesn't extend to say 20ft from the centerline on either side of the road, and so does not grant you the authority to cut trees on the sides. So you have to ask.

Now, I agree with you, why would someone let you do this? Perhaps you can sell the point that the loggers will fix the road after operations are complete. Gravel, drainage, grading... it will be better than ever probably. Of course this will cut into your profit from the timber cause they won't do it for free. But they will do it 99% of the time, where I live at least. Another selling point where I live is they don't jut cut trees but they brush/mow the sides of the road. Increasing sight lines for safety and creating a firebreak.

Douglas Alpenstock wrote:Dan makes an excellent point. If the logger is cutting an access road across someone else's property, that definitely requires permission.

I showed the logger the surveys on paper that I have and we walked the property lines. The survey document for the 0.34 acre section do not detail all the dimensions and I’m confused as to how many feet off the marked trees I have. However the realtor I bought the property from had explained that several lots were carved out of one larger tract of land owned by neighbor #1 and that an area for a driveway was included with my purchase.

I could understand the logger wanting to “CYA” and have it okay with the neighbors so that he doesn’t run into trouble. There are no trespassing signs posted in the area.

Great suggestion for the shared existing road. It is a mess and does need work. I’d be open to the neighbors sharing the cost of repair. Not sure if I really want to shoulder the entire cost as I don’t even live there.

I agree with Dan above. You have an easement to use as a right of way. You don't own the property. You have a very limited right to use the property to get in and out of your property. And then you want to tell the owner you want to sell HIS timber!

John Indaburgh wrote:I agree with Dan above. You have an easement to use as a right of way. You don't own the property. You have a very limited right to use the property to get in and out of your property. And then you want to tell the owner you want to sell HIS timber!

1) I don’t think that’s what Dan was saying.

2) Why am I being billed for taxes if that land belongs to someone else? The realtor and closing attorney told me both parcels were mine and gave me the documents for them.

Does the logger need you to have permission?  Or, does the logger need you to have written permission?  Or, does the logger want you to inform the neighbors of your intentions so they have the opportunity to object?

Dan Fish wrote:Without being directly involved it sort of sounds like the logging outfit wants to cut right of way. It's to make the road passable by the log trucks more or less.

Your easement likely is for the road surface only and the right of way doesn't extend to say 20ft from the centerline on either side of the road, and so does not grant you the authority to cut trees on the sides. So you have to ask.

Now, I agree with you, why would someone let you do this? Perhaps you can sell the point that the loggers will fix the road after operations are complete. Gravel, drainage, grading... it will be better than ever probably. Of course this will cut into your profit from the timber cause they won't do it for free. But they will do it 99% of the time, where I live at least. Another selling point where I live is they don't jut cut trees but they brush/mow the sides of the road. Increasing sight lines for safety and creating a firebreak.

Leave the political crap out of the conversation. No one cares, I promise.

First get smart on exactly what the logger wants to do. Then just ask the person who land this affects, in person, if a local loggin outfit can do some clearing on the road into your property. Outline the benefits. Shoot maybe they have trees to sell and will jump on board. Don't start preachin about unrelated things. Don't even ask other neighbors in the area. Not their business.

I know you all only have the information I’m providing and I’m trying to stick to the point and not introduce irrelevant information. There is also privacy and anonymity to maintain.

The logger has to travel an unnamed road in poor condition in order to access my property. I interpreted Dan’s reference to an easement to the unnamed road as there are a couple of residences using it. My logger isn’t doing anything on any easement at this time unless the neighbors are interested in some road maintenance. Still, my logger isn’t doing anything on any easement at this point in time.

My property consists of 2 parcels. I’m billed for taxes on both. The realtor and closing attorney told me both parcels were mine and they furnished all the documents and surveys for both.

John F Dean wrote:Does the logger need you to have permission?  Or, does the logger need you to have written permission?  Or, does the logger want you to inform the neighbors of your intentions so they have the opportunity to object?

I think it’s that the logger wants me to inform the neighbors. They may take action against someone taking trees off their neighbor’s property. And I showed the survey to the logger but anyone can show a survey to him and claim that it’s legit. So he’s putting his rear end on the line going on the word of an outsider.

If you and the logger are afraid that the neighbor will call the "police/government agency". I recomment that you call said police/government agency and give them a heads-up aka pull a permit.

If you and the logger are worried that the neighbor will pull out  a gun and start shooting at the huge bulldozers/etc. Idk how safe it is to be next to said person, esp if they already know the logger and his company. Maybe get your "mother's pastor" to bring up the subject to the neighbor.

If you are just worried about the extra noise and dust/etc and disruption that your work will create, yes it's a good idea to inform the neighbor. But informing someone and begging for permissions are two different things. The CEO of a company informing that we will be working on this project is very different from my begging for a pay raise. Maybe you just moved to this area and the logger knows more about said neighbor, I would ask the logger why he is so concerned about said neighbor.

Assuming that the neighbor has a position of power or some type of connection and can prevent you or the logger from completing this project. It makes sense to figure out why he would be against it and talk about how you will resolve those "problems" Maybe he doesn't want the land graded to the point where it is flooding his driving lot. Maybe he doesn't want you looking into his yard let him know that you will build a living fence that is 8ft tall.

Vanessa Smoak wrote: The logger has to travel an unnamed road in poor condition in order to access my property. I interpreted Dan’s reference to an easement to the unnamed road as there are a couple of residences using it. My logger isn’t doing anything on any easement at this time unless the neighbors are interested in some road maintenance. Still, my logger isn’t doing anything on any easement at this point in time.

Our easement agreement specifically prohibits logging trucks on the road. The road is to be used for access to the properties and nothing of a commercial nature. This may be fairly common. You should have an easement agreement that was part of your real estate transaction outlining what the easement can be used for and what's prohibited. No matter what, it seems like talking to the owner of the easement is the first step.

Robin Katz wrote:

Vanessa Smoak wrote: The logger has to travel an unnamed road in poor condition in order to access my property. I interpreted Dan’s reference to an easement to the unnamed road as there are a couple of residences using it. My logger isn’t doing anything on any easement at this time unless the neighbors are interested in some road maintenance. Still, my logger isn’t doing anything on any easement at this point in time.

Our easement agreement specifically prohibits logging trucks on the road. The road is to be used for access to the properties and nothing of a commercial nature. This may be fairly common. You should have an easement agreement that was part of your real estate transaction outlining what the easement can be used for and what's prohibited. No matter what, it seems like talking to the owner of the easement is the first step.

What easement? Again, I own the property.

Hey Vanessa, reading your first post in the other thread I see "2) My deed is for a 4-acre “postage stamp” area plus a 1/3 acre narrow slice of just enough width to connect the “postage stamp” lot to another easement for vehicle access. My lot has no direct road access. I’ve been using the southern easement and the neighbor on that side has been giving me a lot of flak."

I would imagine we're all sort of getting hung up on this. We can't see your land the way you do, with the context you have. But I think that's why we're all getting hung up on the easement and what kind of uses might be allowed on it.

I still think it's good to know what exactly the logger is worried about- probably worth asking. He may have dealt with your neighbor in the past, for example.

Since you own the land and aren't planning to build a toxic waste dump, I don't see how the neighbors have any say or authority over whether you can create a driveway. Informing them of the planned work is a good idea so that the logger isn't confronted by an angry (possibly gun-toting) neighbor who mistakenly believes that they own that strip of land.

Three sentences are enough to tell the neighbors everything that they need to know, e.g.:

To Who It May Concern,
A logger will be clearing trees and constructing a driveway on my land parcel (insert parcel #) to improve road access on my property. The work will begin on (insert start date). If you have any questions, please contact (insert contact info).

I agree with the folks that are suggesting talking with your neighbors.

That is a fun way to get to know them while explaining the situation.

I put all stuff I get in the trash sometimes not even reading because I get so much junk mail.

Also If you approached me I would want to know why I am given someone permission to do something.

Can you clarify the info below:
A) 4 acres plot that you own that you can use any how you want to
B) 1/3 acre connecting/driveway lot that you own
C) An easement "private" road that you don't own and that the neighbor who subdivided the other two lots above that you bought technically owns.

I can now see why the logging company wants to clarify if his vechiles are allowed on the easement access "road". And if he needs to widen/modify/block/rut-destroy the easement road, even more so that he wants permission so that he isn't sued.

I like the 2nd letter than you wrote.

It is hard for all of us out in Permie-land to advise, we may not be the best resource for this particular request. At a most basic level, to write a letter that best serves your purpose, you need to clearly understand what that purpose is. Based on the information you've provided here, seems like any of the following could be the case, and each would call for its own approach:

-Maybe you are *legally required* either by local laws or by terms of your deed/easement to obtain consent of the adjoining property owners or other who use the easement
-Maybe you are *legally required* either by local laws or by terms of your deed/easement to notify adjoining property owners or others who use the easement about the planned activities, but their consent is not required
-Maybe it is unclear what right you have, and therefor logger wants some assurance that they will not be confronted by neighbors or face legal problems for undertaking this project
-Maybe logger thinks they may unavoidably impact other property owners in the course of the project, and wants a CYA

Could be beneficial to pay for a consultation with local attorney who is versed in rural property laws in your area.