Some late night thoughts about groups and belonging

Maybe "meaningless drivel" or similar is the better place for this, as I don't really feel like it's a personal challenge, though it kinda is one in a way, but anyway my thoughts are about community and within the community section of the forum this subforum seemed like the best fit. Also this is "late night thoughts" type stuff and I'm a bit sleepy so please take it with a grain of salt, though I might come back tomorrow and add subsequent comments to expand further when I'm more clear-headed. Okay here goes.

I see a lot of posts with people saying they're looking for their tribe. This makes me notice something about myself, perhaps something that is unusual, which is that I am definitely not seeking a tribe. I have sometimes considered jokingly calling myself a Groucho Marxist, after his quip that he would not join any club that would have him as a member.

I like community, indeed I like this community such as it is, but I don't like being a member of a community. I don't seek out like-minded people, as I'm quite accustomed to not being like-minded with anyone.

There is certainly a pattern of agreement or understanding about this or that Very Important Thing, that I tend to share with people I care about, but somewhere deep down I am always looking for and keenly aware of all the differences too, all the places where we part ways, and I cherish those just as much.

Additionally, I crave variety and diversity much more than belonging. Belonging feels weird to me. I attended a meetup once with some weirdos who shared a niche hard-to-define interest, and at that meetup I experienced a sense of belonging with them, and I admit it was intoxicating, but below it all there was something deeply disturbing about it.

If you looked at a roster of the people I feel closest to, for each one you'd scratch your head and say "how did someone like you and someone like that ever become close??" Or at least if you did have that reaction, I'd feel good about it.

I have a wife who is very much "on my wavelength" about many things, and I could say the same about many other people in my life, and there are probably many people out there with similar personalities as mine, but still I don't have and don't want a "tribe". There are groups I am a member of by definition, but I don't want to be part of a group. Tribes offer wonderful, irreplaceable gifts to their members, I know, but ultimately tribes are scary things to me.

I have some ideas about why I'm like this, and how it's affected my life and my philosophy so far, but maybe I'll write about that some other time. Good night for now.

Hi Ned,
Sometimes the late night rants can be a good thing :) These are some early morning thoughts. I tend to agree with the verse in Genesis that says "It is not good for man to be alone...". However, I don't think that means everyone needs to have hundreds of people in a community centered around permaculture. Specifically it was talking about a wife, but in general I think it means that people were created for interaction with each other. To be social. But I also think some people need more social than others, and I don't think there is anything wrong with that. While I like permaculture and homesteading, I don't particularly want to live in a community centered around just that.

It sounds like you have found where you belong with a small number of people. If you are satisfied with the status quo, then great! Many people have not found where they belong, and are still longing and looking for a family or friends.

This isn't really for you, just some of your thoughts got me thinking. I have seen a trend from both sexes to set aside family and serious friendships, for the sake of a career, with the thought that they will get family and friends later in life. Some do... many do not. For those people who want those things, just remember that it is much easier to start a career later in life than it is to start a family. A husband, a wife, a child... all can help with the sense of purpose. That sense of purpose means I am here for a reason. And if I am here for a reason, then I belong here just as much as anyone else.

Ned Harr wrote:  I'm quite accustomed to not being like-minded with anyone

Me too, and that's why I don't look for a tribe, I'm pretty sure there ain't one for me. I'd like to find more people I can talk to than I currently have in my life, but a whole group I can talk to is way more than I expect to ever meet in my life, definitely wouldn't all be local to me.

As far a pipe dreams, I'd love to have like minded people around, who I don't weird out in casual conversation, that I can be myself with, but that's probably just a pipe dream.

This resonates with me. I consider myself to be kinda weird (as if being "normal" means anything). I have a thought of thoughts, and ideologies for lack of a better word, that I feel like most people would find strange, to say the least. And, I don't know what this says about me, but when I find other people who feel the same way about certain things as I do, I find them kinda weird. But maybe that's a good thing, I don't know.

I've been thinking a lot about how similar we have to be to form a tribe.

For instance, the deeper I get into hanging around here at Permies, the more affection I feel for both the generic you and specific fellow posters. And when I discover some rift between our thoughtways that feels vital, it opens a kind of cognitive dissonance. How many of those rifts can separate us without disrupting filial affection?

Yea, I don’t fit in any tribe ….at least not face to face.   I can put on the act to “pass” for a few days in a row, and after that, I am exhausted. Even with other Permies/ homesteaders face to face too often becomes work.   I do enjoy talking with other Permies/ homesteaders … just not for too long.

I am fortunate that my wife is of a similar personality. It is interesting that our reaction to a crisis is opposite.   I go silent and want zero distractions. My wife has to talk about it. Somehow we have managed to survive together.

I think tribalism implies acceptance beyond right or wrong.
That is what is scary about it to me.
I want to associate with you because of your lived values,not despite them
Because of this I have a broad and loose network of people who I share interests and enthusiasm with.
For example,I am not a christian, yet I know 3 different christian pastors who are doing the work I care about, while my own church is not, so I volunteer with them
I don't ride bikes, but I do belong to a bike co-op, mostly to do handyman work and gardening.
I am not a vegan or vegetarian but I cater to those dietary restrictions when I host an event.
I am a Unitarian, I volunteer extensively for chuch events and maintenance, but I dont attend services.

Are these my tribes?
Not really, if anything the people within each affiliation that are willing to go against the party line in their ACTIONS are my tribe.

I have rolled this thought around myself for some time. I struggle sometimes with social ques, attributed to a level of autism that runs in my family, but I don't let that limit me. When I was hyper focusing and having anxiety of what people thought or rather what I thought they thought I had this strong yearning to belong. It took time, but I found people that not only I enjoyed interacting with but it seems that they reciprocated the feeling.

Being plucked from my hometown and going to a different place where I knew nobody for college helped a ton. Being another face in the crowd, you can find yourself. I just embraced me and when I interacted with people they got the unadulterated me rather than the 'created' person I was a home that formed from trying to fit in. I have sense returned home as 'me' and sure some relationships have puttered out but new authentic ones have arrived.

I like my space but I like interaction. Finding places where you can get fulfillment from interaction and comradery is important. I can/will geek out with people on Permies to get a feeling of companionship, my partner and I will go out with work friends that I have grown up with and know what I am all about talking shop, or I can stay home with my critters and wife to enjoy their company.

A tribe is nice to a degree, but so is space. Learning both of those has brought me some peace.

i wonder if maybe i don't understand what the tribe thing means. I always assumed it meant having a social structure established for when you want it, but also the space to venture out and explore different communities.

I tend to see all "my groups" as overlapping filters (or Venn diagrams...), but they only are valid for me for a short time. Immigrants, foodies, zen folks, gardeners, football fans, dog people, writers, etc. I hang with them but I wouldn't consider one of these values/communities to be more influential than any other one (or be surprised if the dog people hate immigrants, or the vegans hate football, etc). I shift from one to another really quickly, and in recent years I've tried to work really hard to not make assumptions that people share more than just the one facet with me, as politics has become more and more confrontational.

In the end, even the person I have spent the majority of my life with (my spouse) has his own opinions and beliefs, and while we're compatible we're by no means identical. Remembering that is often a practice I need to work on!

(like Timothy mentions, i may look at it this way because i've been a serial mover my entire life, like i can't even tell you how many times i've moved, every year at least once as a kid, multiple countries, different languages/cultures/etc. I'm constantly transplanting myself and fine with my own company.)

These are interesting & thoughtful replies so far. I wasn't expecting any at all, and I woke up to this stream of gold. Thank you!

I don't have time to write a lot more just now, but I did have a minute to clarify that I am not a loner, either. My wife and 3 kids pretty much guarantee I never feel lonely, but besides that I seem to make friends everywhere I go. Put me in any situation where I'm in contact with the same people for more than a few days (e.g. my neighbors, coworkers, classmates, etc.) and I tend to make friends with at least one of them. I even have this one friend I made just because we kept running into each other at concerts by this one band. My list of "closest bestest friends" sometimes feels unmanageably long.  And I've done a lot of work maintaining old friendships that have become long distance as people (or I) have moved.

What's significant, and something I hadn't really thought about until last night, is that very few of my friends know each other, and those few who do aren't that close with each other. I think that's kinda neat, and kinda strange, and I'm totally comfortable with it. It gives me some of the benefits of a tribe (at least in terms of "connections to other people everywhere I go") without the parts I don't want (feeling like I belong to a group).

I'll write more later, I'm sure.

This thread resonates SO strongly, for me!! I can thoroughly enjoy a social gathering once or twice a month. But, if it's twice, I need to work with something like Tereza's Venn diagram. I have my permies, my growies (not all growies are permies), my fiber friends, my soapies, my homesteaders, my church family, my coffee house family, my biker friends... There is overlap, because this area is mostly all small towns, and I'm definitely not the only one who is multifaceted. But, other than going to church regularly, and my almost monthly fiber guild (more like 9 or 10x/yr), I don't like feeling... obligated to be anywhere, at any specific time, on a regular basis. I enjoy having friends to mentor, be mentored by, help & be helped by, and just enjoy one another's conversation - preferably one on one - no more than 3, including me, or in text.

John needs frequent, superficial, face to face contact, several times a week, or better yet, daily - think the people at the registers, at the grocery store, the people in the meat department, etc). He yearns for a small tribe, in which he can feel he has something of significance to bring to the table. I beg him to find it - without me, because just as much as he needs that social outlet, I need my solitude. He insists on dragging me along to the store or post office, frequently, in the supposed fear that folks need to see me, occasionally, so he can prove he hasn't bumped me off, and rolled me down a ravine.

I would not do well, in a 'tribe'. I'd feel suffocated, judged, and outcast - I've tried. Nope, nope, nope.

A fellow named Riff once sang of the happiness found in a like-minded tribe:

When you're a Jet, you're a Jet all the way,
from your first cigarette to your last dying day.
When you're a Jet, when the shit hits the fan,
You've got brothers around, you're a family man.
You're never alone, you're never disconnected,
you're home with your own, when company's expected,
you're well protected!
Then you are set with the capital J, which you'll never forget till they cart you away.
When you're a Jet, you stay a Jet!

Dc Stewart wrote:A fellow named Riff once sang of the happiness found in a like-minded tribe:

When you're a Jet, you're a Jet all the way,
from your first cigarette to your last dying day.
When you're a Jet, when the shit hits the fan,
You've got brothers around, you're a family man.
You're never alone, you're never disconnected,
you're home with your own, when company's expected,
you're well protected!
Then you are set with the capital J, which you'll never forget till they cart you away.
When you're a Jet, you stay a Jet!

And, this is one of those lovely ones that can be read from both the pros and cons views, lol. These exact things that make one person happy can make the next person miserable.

I have always found the term `finding my tribe` odd.

I have never wanted to be part of a tribe, group, or anything.

I don't need to check off boxes as I am me.

I do love being part of the permies forum because I knew I belonged the minute I found the forum.

Anne,

Some may be looking for a fit Hoping that one exists for them.  I do wish they find that fit.  I suspect that for many it will be an exercise in frustration.

I understand folks looking to fit in.  I just never thought of that as a tribe or even a group.  More like `friends`.

That is just not me.

Like Anne, I don't want to be part of a tribe or a group or anything. What I sense here on Permies is a lot of people -- likeable, friendly people -- with whom I share certain important preferences, but not all of whom necessarily share my goals or vision. I like that. It's why I plan to stick around.

I don't want to find a "community of like-minded people", that just sounds like a cult. If I find I share a goal or vision with a bunch of other people, then I have to stop and question if it's really what I want or if I'm just a worker ant in someone else's utopian dream.

Many people see tribe as an extension of how traditional small towns worked. Certain standards were expected and it was hard if you were "different".

I can't see wanting to be part of either, until we find a way to teach "acceptance" starting in about kindergarten. Small towns were held up as beautiful places to grow up - unless you were the one being bullied for whatever difference seemed just a bit too much for the group standard.

Stealing a couple minutes to write...

What happened to me to make me this way?

I think a big input is the fact that I'm a twin. Grew up constantly being confused with someone else, and even when that wasn't happening I was often being treated as one half of a whole person-unit instead of as a full individual person in my own right. Don't get me wrong, it wasn't some heavy trauma or anything, I had much bigger problems than that to worry about as a kid, and being a twin had many unique advantages too, but I believe this twin experience played a large role in influencing my personality as I developed. It made me very attuned to all the ways I might be like or unlike other people, not just my twin, and I got freakishly good at differentiating myself.

Another one might be having moved a lot as a kid. Three continents in 7 years, so that by the time I entered first grade I was already the one with the weird name and the foreign accent. And I have weird parents too, bohemian ethnic minority artists who managed to be culturally snobby while also rather penniless. Strange combination. Result was every time I'd go over a friend's house, or ride in a friend's car, or out to some local event, I'd look around and get a little reminder of my foreignness, even long after I had an American accent and basically all the cultural trappings of being an American kid. Again, this wasn't some big trauma, just a kind of "exposure therapy" with outsiderhood. Even once I moved to the US I never lived in the same city more than 6 years, and often less than that.

"Where's home to you?" My answer: "I'm from where I'm at, m**********r!"

Ned Harr wrote:
"Where's home to you?" My answer: "I'm from where I'm at, m**********r!"

Ha! That's often my answer as well. I feel like one of those workplace accident boards:

"We are currently 5 years and 2 days living in this place
Our record is 5 years and 2 days"

Some more stolen time...

Last year I started thinking about this tribeless/groupless thing more broadly.

For example, one of the drummers I jam with recently asked me if I'd like to start a proper band. I was thrilled because he's an excellent drummer and I like him a lot. But then he started naming genres of music he wanted us to play and I had to stop him and say "Let's not put a name on it. Let's not draw a box around ourselves. Let's play whatever sounds good to us, and let the music decide where to go, and follow it no matter where that is." I know that sounds hippy-dippy but in this case I really believe in it.

Genres can be a convenient way to communicate expectations of what something will sound like when describing it after the fact to a naive third party, but I really dislike them as a starting point. I think some of this same logic translates when it comes to "tribe"/"group"/etc.

I appreciate this post because its helping me think about myself and things I want and don't want.  I think, in this day and age, we romanticize the idea of a tribe a lot.  Back in the day you didn't get to choose your tribe, you were born into it, so it was really more like a small town than the type of "tribe" that people talk about when they want to build community.  It had all the plusses, and minusses, of small town life.

I think that's why I don't usually say that's what I'm seeking.  Because I have a realistic concept of the plusses and minusses, and its becoming more realistic as time goes on.

I've always been someone who makes friends easily, I'm extraverted, have lots of social stability in my life (in the sense that I've lived in the same area my whole life etc., though I haven't had the same friends since elementary school.)  I make new friends as old ones leave.  There are a few people from my childhood I've maintained friendships with, but the vast majority of my friends are adult acquisitions.  I'd say the group or niche where I fit in the best is faire people (Renaissance/fantasy/pirate/any historical reenactors/fantasy nerds).  When I slotted into that world many years ago I felt amazing comradery and acceptance quickly.  I mean are we lockstep on everything?  Absolutely not.  But we can at least listen to each other and respect each other fairly well in more ways than most groups of people can re. agreeing to disagree.

So why do I seem to want intentional community?  Well it ebs and flows, I notice that desire picks up in the autumn, after faire season ends here, and then tapers off in spring, when faires are coming up sooner.  So clearly the needs in my life that are met socially by faire life, performing, visiting, camping with everyone, etc., are going unmet during the colder months, and on some level I feel community living will meet those needs, plus add richness to my life all year 'round with people to grow things with etc.  

What does all that mean?  I'm still figuring it out myself.  I think the thing that appeals to me with community is built-in friends who are right outside my door, like going back to the '90s when neighbours all knew each other and did things together and the kids ran around in the street.  In the Portland metro area one may still find that in pockets, but its not typical these days, especially in apartment complexes, which is what we can afford right now.  I also love the idea of sharing, helping each other, doing fun things without having to go get there because those fun things are 50 steps away, or in my own house with people coming in, etc.  Additionally my husband being a social introvert would love a world where he also has built-in friends and he doesn't have to go anywhere in order to do things with people.

Patching in a few more thoughts...(by now I can probably stop prepending that to each of my comments on this thread, huh?)

Through my work in human factors and UX research I've learned quite a bit about the area of psychology that deals with cognitive biases. These biases have a negative valence in everyday vernacular, but really our whole ability to perceive and make sense of the world around us is thanks to biases: the universe is just undifferentiated noise until your biases kick in and allow your eyes, ears, nose, etc. to pick out patterns in the chaos.

So, all that is to say that biases are useful. Well, they can be, sometimes. Sometimes they are not. The problem is that over the course of our evolutionary history, through no fault of our own, we have not perfectly optimized the override mechanism, the thing that allows us to say "hey wait, I'm wrong, it's just a bias telling me X when actually Y is correct" without a ton of Pavlovian conditioning first. In those times, the override mechanism is sorely needed. So it requires a lot of dedicated effort to develop and maintain. But It's worth it. In fact I'd say the ability to recognize the need for and then use the "bias override mechanism" is potentially one of those few characteristics that truly differentiates human behavior from that of other animals.

One of the biases that is basically never useful, to me and my core identity anyway, is the one where you have to make a choice about something and instead of analyzing and evaluating the facts surrounding the choice against your own carefully considered personal preferences and values, you start by figuring out which team you're on and what's the approved decision for that team, then just going with that, possibly backfilling justifications afterward.

That bias is actually not just useless but repugnant to me, though I'm sure I haven't purged it from my thought processes as thoroughly as I'd like. Still, aggressively rejecting tribal identity of any kind, and always heading in the opposite direction from such identity if I so much as smell it in the air, helps as a preventative measure.

So as I said earlier, there might be descriptive labels that fit me after the fact but I shun these as points in my identity, anything that might subconsciously inform my choices before I've made them. So I live in America and have American citizenship, but I don't want to think of myself as "an American". I value living in harmony with nature and I love the outdoors, but I don't want to be called "a conservationist". I own guns but I don't feel any affiliation with that group "gun-owners". Etc.

Now having written that, I feel I should also say that this is a luxurious perspective I have, being a modern person in a big wealthy well-protected country. As much as group identity creates problems in this world, I free-ride off of its benefits as well. It's often because of the group identity of others that they are willing to support great causes I benefit from, or even risk their lives to defend me and my way of life. I appreciate that and don't forget it. But I also don't think it necessarily creates in me an obligation to embrace that way of thinking/behaving as well. If I existed in different circumstances, my views about groups/tribes might well be very different, but I'm here, now, as myself, and I can't and don't want to be anyone else.

Though I will say, there's also a "lead by example" aspect to this: if everyone thought as I do and rejected tribal identity, maybe we wouldn't need people to make sacrifices for groups/causes in the first place!

Hi Ned,

Just a few fast observations.  I find tribalism on the group level and denial on the individual level to be extremely strong forces….especially when they unite.   Although I use the DSM, I find far too many “professionals” use it as a thesaurus for name calling.

Ned Harr wrote:.........One of the biases that is basically never useful, to me and my core identity anyway, is the one where you have to make a choice about something and instead of analyzing and evaluating the facts surrounding the choice against your own carefully considered personal preferences and values, you start by figuring out which team you're on and what's the approved decision for that team, then just going with that, possibly backfilling justifications afterward.
That bias is actually not just useless but repugnant to me, though I'm sure I haven't purged it from my thought processes as thoroughly as I'd like. Still, aggressively rejecting tribal identity of any kind, and always heading in the opposite direction from such identity if I so much as smell it in the air, helps as a preventative measure.
.......................................................
Though I will say, there's also a "lead by example" aspect to this: if everyone thought as I do and rejected tribal identity, maybe we wouldn't need people to make sacrifices for groups/causes in the first place!

As the following are day-time musings, they may be of limited use or validity.. :-)

Not sure what the basis for the ranking of definitions is is Webster's dictionary, but the first entry under tribe is (entry 1a) "a social group composed chiefly of numerous families, clans, or generations having a shared ancestry and language". Farther down the list (entry 2) is that which I believe is more relevant to this thread: "a group of persons having a common character, occupation, or interest".  It could be argued that the latter is a rather poor substitute for the former in efficacy, even as both can be infiltrated with biases that may be construed as undesirable.  I guess I nevertheless feel that under the right circumstances and generational trajectories, some tribes/tribal paradigms have provided "good" biases that render "analyzing and evaluating the facts surrounding the choice against your own carefully considered personal preferences and values" less necessary, at least on a day to day basis.  In this example, I'm thinking of those indigenous tribes world wide that were NOT set out on categorizing and eliminating those "others" on the planet that did not see things their way and rather built into their cosmic view a balance that needed to be maintained that allowed for the co-existence of those "others" (in whatever means of classification one wishes to use here).  Thus, while we still see the word 'tribalism' used today quite often in a negative way to explain conflict between groups, that is not the only way tribes can function and history (through to today?) indicates they could be quite supportive for the members and the ecosystem.

I certainly agree with the tendency for "..backfilling justifications afterward" as a consequence for fitting into one's social network, even at the expense of individual, family, community, regional, and even global health, but I don't think it has to be the case that one must regularly be on their intellectual guard for bias....*if* the experiences, role models, and sense of inclusivity in one's own skin, one's family/tribe, and world/cosmos is relatively intact.  As I'm in a region with several remaining indigenous tribes in the Americas, I don't see their love and dedication to their tribes....which at least appear to highlight an inclusivity moderated by rules/ethos (can't think of a better descriptor just now).....as being a detriment to their well-being or that of the planet, although clearly they are at odds with that of the dominant culture.  In this case, rejection of their cultural identity would, to me, be an unfortunate development.  [“No European who has tasted savage life can afterwards bear to live in our societies.”-- Benjamin Franklin, with reference to Native American tribes.]

Finally,.....yes. Totally agree with the need to check in with our biases that time to time cause problems in ourselves, in our homes, in our communities, etc.  To an extent, I suspect a large amount of this bias load can be reframed constructively from a 'compassion' angle as well as a 'cognitive' perspective.  Would your view on tribal living and close community be different if your early years had not been so disruptive to friendships and connections made at that time?  Similarly, would my own disdain for the institution of marriage be different if I had not grown up under such a corrosive marriage between my parents?  These are the early life experiences we encounter and that create subconscious negative bias, ....experiences that more often fail to be "compassionately handled" by the many who might make a difference during those years.  In some tribes, it was common that a child had "many mothers"....the sisters of the biological mother being of high importance in caregiving as a means to support the biological mother as well as provide different temperaments and perspectives as the child developed. We catch glimpses of this in our own culture when a child might say "I like visiting Auntie yyy with all of her animals, but I really like hiking and adventuring with Auntie zzz..."  These experiences too create unconscious bias, but bias that might be called "positive bias"...

So it's a tough issue to be sure and one that will differ for each person and have many influences.  The power of early-life psychological development, nevertheless, is the ability to build in positive bias that can act much quicker than the application of a thoughtful, reasoned calculus. ("Give me the child before age 7 and I will show you the man..."  Jesuit maxim attributed to Aristotle (?)).  But this bias building as you noted has a down-side, depending on one's experiences and view, because bias can conflict mightily with what 'reason' tells us is the better course to take. (And even our inner protocol for producing a "reasoned response" can be based on flawed, biased assumption if we are not careful.)  

Interesting discussion....When my insomnia kicks in at 3 am, I will review for an update! :-)

Ned Harr wrote:Patching in a few more thoughts...These biases have a negative valence in everyday vernacular,

I've found Quantum Mechanics, Wave theory, and Thermodynamics quite useful in understanding social dynamics. People, plants and animals, microorganisms radiate and receive spiritual energy that, to simplify, either resonates with, is neutral towards, or negative with others they encounter.

Life happens...
When I look back on my life I see the seasons.
I feel like a 6 pack of Tomatoes.
Each life lived separate from the last.
Was planted in a family til that tore itself apart.
Then free range in a temporary pile of dirt beside the hyway,
The next was a family of my own, feeling picked clean before my fruit was hardly ripe.
Connections, hobbies, interests blossomed and then faded away.
My kids grew away, husband in a care home.
Friends and associates dying so fast that funerals are my most common social event.
I have built my Eden on an acreage many times and seen it rust and fade away.
Happy is no longer a place for me, it's no longer a people.
Being unvaxed cut me loose socially,
The dying of those that did keeps me away and disconnected.
The fact that nobody is talking about it doesn't mean it's not happening.
To invest time and attention in dead men walking is like being a minister on death row in a leper colony.
Your milage may vary but I go to coffee every week and listen to reports of sudden deaths, strokes, anyerisms, heart attacks and turbo cancers.
Who lost a grandkid or their friends to overdoses or suicide this week.
What is our world going to look like in 10 years, 5? 2? Next year?
People are in full rolling crisis all around me.
The kind with so many variables that there isn't a fix.

I am trying to get in touch with my inner hermit.
Tribe?
Give me a sec while I lace up my running shoes.

Sorry to be a downer.. but we are in a paradigm shift..
And everyone is driving full speed backwards while looking in the rear view.

Ah yes. In Thermodynamics what you are describing is know as the approach towards maximum entropy. A state of final chaos.

You can't unscramble the egg.

If your life is chaotic, be the one that establishes order in the system. Your world. Order out of chaos. Change the future. You can not the past change Skywalker. FagettaBoutIt! As was said in "Frozen"; "Let It Go"

Brief introduction regarding the Arrow of En-tropic Time, in Thermodynamic systems.

There is strength in numbers, and resilience in diversity, to use some aphorisms. Through connecting with other people who have things in common with us, we feel stronger, supported, not so alone; we can find the energy to do things we could never do alone. When two people share their excitement between each other they can do the work of three or even more, and so on.

But there’s the reverse, that we also need people who are different from us to remind us that we are only one expression of humanity, not the entirety. There are always people who are very different from us, and we can’t run away, as they are often those close to us: relatives, neighbors, people whose struggles we might not understand right away. I think this latter kind of connection—between dissimilar people—is what is missing from this world of long-distance connection. We get so used to being able to share such-and-such with people we connect with through email, letters, phone calls, etc. and falter when presented with people we don’t understand. We might get judgey, cold, or feel misunderstood or unloved.

The most essential love goes between the part of us all that is the same, whether we are different human beings, whether we are plants, fungi, mountains, rivers, winds…

Not setting out to seek "our tribe", my wife and I once found it. We set sail from Tampa Bay in 2001 and went out among the cruising sailors. They were from every land - young and old, wealthy and destitute (true, the younger ones tended to be the most destitute). But they ALL knew that some dark night, they might find themselves utterly dependent on other mariners. There was a great camaraderie - we would anchor in a harbor and within an hour, some person we'd never met would be alongside to say hi and exchange news. Often this would lead to a night of hanging out telling sea stories and becoming best of friends, and as often going our separate ways the next day! We spent several years in the western Caribbean, surrounded by an ever-changing population of dear friends. We were in almost daily radio contact with a hundred people who would unquestioningly come to each others' aid and give all the resources of their generally well-stocked boats to a sailor in need. My wife, the social director, still corresponds with dozens of them. I, being a lone wolf, have almost no contact with any of them anymore - it was a phase and I moved on to other things. It was intense while it lasted!

Realized this one from pbf comics is relevant:



Edit to add:

As I see it, the message of the comic reflects my thoughts: you can be someone who happens to [live in a certain castle--or whatever], but once a flag gets raised over [that castle, or whatever] and you start identifying with it, the tribal mentality kicks in. Now you have a side you're on, and opponents in the form of everyone else who's not on your side. Your opponents become organisms whose deaths you can justify as a "victory", and you become an organism whose death others can justify as a "sacrifice". It all starts with having a group/tribe.

Oh I get. All is fair in love and war.

Nola, thank you for feeling able to share with us where you're at in your life process.  As I am in my late 30s I haven't yet reached that time, but I know it will come for me and it sounds like it is very very hard and perhaps the tone of possible apathy in your post is your best defense today against the emotional pain of it all, and I can't blame you.

Hello Ned.

It does seem you are fixated on the dark side of the tribe (the “othering” of everyone else). There is truth to this.

There is also something to be said for all of the benefits of being part of a tribe.

I’ll give you an anecdote from the perspective of being a new mother. In a tribe, a new mother is understood to be in a very physically and emotionally fragile moment of her life. She has just pushed herself to the physical limit and her life is spiritually changed forever. In all traditional cultures, her tribe takes on all of her responsibilities and feeds and cares for her through this transition into motherhood, typically for at least 40 days. This still happens in Amish communities. In our modern culture, in our march toward individuality and siloing of our family existence into the “nuclear family”, we have lost this sense of gathering around a new mama as a cultural norm. I’m not saying there are not instances of families or friends helping in the postpartum period, but it is not a cultural norm and many new mothers struggle.

I think those of us looking for a “tribe” or a group of like-minded people to gather around want to step away from the modern way of every family working as an autonomous unit and instead want to find folks with synergistic skills who want to build resiliency through interdependence. I don’t think that many of us looking for a tribe is looking to join a monolith to be a part of in which all of our individuality is lost. I believe there is something to be said for those of us who don’t want to march along wherever mainstream culture is headed to build something different together.

good topic, great discussion. i often refer to our commune as a non-intentional community because i wouldn't want to be in a community that expects me to be any one way when i want to be different every day and push myself to do different things so i think there are a lot of introverted types homesteading who would relate more to your motley crew as that diversity is really what excites a person like me who is very multi-faceted.

On the subject of tribe: i think there is a primal need to commute energies together in such a way that promotes the harmony of the earth. I am in fact in that regard very much looking to collaborate with like-minded people in the sense that i value a beautiful fruit tree and all the birds and bees around it more than i do a bmw or fancy things. And some people regardless of practice or religion or beliefs just don't believe in magic, see this world as hell on earth and dont care to even try to protect it or love it. so yes, id like to find a think group that can outnumber these people, help validate and materialize these ideas and put their energy where their mouth is.

That last part is key because a lot of people like to talk about organic farming and sustainability but when it comes down to it are not willing to give up their worldly luxuries.