Fermented Feed...elaborated

Hello-

Im wondering about different experiences with different fermented feed via different starters...

I am curious about feed fermented by Whey, ACV (which I seem to get to read the most about), sourdough cultures and of course naturally fermenting with water/oxygen.

Im hoping to figure out how to get most of a months feed (1500) fermenting at the beginning of the month or at least bi-monthly.
As of today Ive been fully experimenting with ACV/Water&Oxygen for both my mash and wholegrain feed getting good action about 3-4 days into the ACV and 5-6 days into the Water/Oxygen but that is just the first action.

Im hoping to use all four different types of starters throughout the month based on their ideal schedules...Ive been told whey could take up to two weeks, for example, to get to a good point of ferment so that would be a later in the month feed versus the ACV...

Anyway Im primarily looking to put together information based on these different starters and people experience...so have you some, please share.

hope this is not a redundant forum...probly is though...sorry

Hi, Alec...welcome to Permies!

I think, firstly, it would do you good to research past posts on 'fermented feeds', it would save you and other Permies a lot of time and effort.

Start with these links ~

https://permies.com/t/21446/permaculture/Lacto-Bacillus-growing-farm

https://permies.com/t/23038/chickens/Soaking-grains-feed

https://permies.com/t/22923/chickens/fermented-chicken-feed

I know, there is a lot of good infomation in here and then let us know what you think or need further...

Ollie-

Yeah, sorry it took me so long to register...I just generally access the information needed I guess I forgot to! go Permies!!!

Anyway...

I had already read two of those threads...but read them again and a checked out the new one! TY

Question 1:
Im hoping to figure out how to get most of a months feed (1500lbs) fermenting at the beginning of the month or at least bi-monthly.
So I guess Im looking to gauge how long certain ferment can go before going bad and how long it takes certain ferment to get to work...for example...Im underthe impression that to use Whey as a starte would take longer than ACV mother culture.

Question 2: Im interested in using the mothers that we create here to keep it all going, instead of need new whey or new ACV...any suggestions or reccomendations for use of mother cultures of feed?

Question 3: What/How much feed does anyone start at one time...as I said Im feeding 150+ birds or so Im looking to connect with a large scale plan or those who can illustrate their systems a bit...

As of right now I start a weeks at a time but obviously the first days is not as ripe as the last couple days...

thanks for your words

On one of the posts, I know Jay Green had listed a link to Backyardchickens, she apparently does some consulting with that group and has had good success with her birds and fermenting feeds. Hopefully, she can jump in here and comment for you, too.

On question #1, you are going to run into a lot of variables, I know I have/do, every batch seems to be different somehow. But you may be able to mix various methods, like you say and come up with different schedules. This might be a lot of work to keep up with, most people/of us just use one or two ways and keep doing it over and over. I'm not that sure it should take so long for whey or a good LAB culture...temperature has a lot to do with how fast, slow and such.

Question #2 - I think, that's good in some respects, you may have to strengthen your culture to keep it viable, time/experience will tell. Again, you're going to run into variables that you won't be able to control or even know of beforehand. Maybe doing enough of you'll get a 'feel' or see a track that you can rely on and replicate/repeat, but I dunno, be nice then you could tell/show us...

Question #3 - You've got a much bigger operation going than anyone here does, as far as I know of anyway...are you open to anything other than fermenting, any thoughts on sprouting or barley fodder or raising mealworms or BSFL composting to lower your grain usage? I think, looking at a weekly cycle can be good and once it's going you'll be Ok, but it'll tie you down and you'll never get away. The timing has to be right, but other things, again, the variables, have to work with you, too. For that size of an operation, I'd hate for you to be relying soley on something or one way and run into a 'hiccup', that could be serious.

Alec Solimeo wrote:Ollie-

Yeah, sorry it took me so long to register...I just generally access the information needed I guess I forgot to! go Permies!!!

Anyway...

I had already read two of those threads...but read them again and a checked out the new one! TY

Question 1:
Im hoping to figure out how to get most of a months feed (1500lbs) fermenting at the beginning of the month or at least bi-monthly.
So I guess Im looking to gauge how long certain ferment can go before going bad and how long it takes certain ferment to get to work...for example...Im underthe impression that to use Whey as a starte would take longer than ACV mother culture.

Question 2: Im interested in using the mothers that we create here to keep it all going, instead of need new whey or new ACV...any suggestions or reccomendations for use of mother cultures of feed?

Question 3: What/How much feed does anyone start at one time...as I said Im feeding 150+ birds or so Im looking to connect with a large scale plan or those who can illustrate their systems a bit...

As of right now I start a weeks at a time but obviously the first days is not as ripe as the last couple days...

thanks for your words

Ferment can go on indefinitely if stirred and fresh feed added to feed the bacillus.

You can use the current mix to backslop the new mix and it will accelerate the process.

It doesn't matter which you use to start your ferment, if you leave it open to air(highly recommended), it will pull yeasts from the air and eventually you will have predominantly LAB fermentation with some acetabacter~but at a lesser degree~ in the mix as well. LABs colonize slower but are more hardy, whereas the ACV started mix can keep the batch acid enough to prevent more harmful yeasts and bacteria from forming before the LABs get fully colonized in the mix. Either way, if your mix is successful, you will have an LAB mix in the end due to the materials you are fermenting...grains.

It doesn't matter how long it takes to get your batches going if you keep a running backslopped mix going(starting a new batch with some of the old or just adding fresh feed and water to existing buckets of mash to keep it always working)...that way you never need to start fresh or jumpstart a fresh batch of feed. Most who are feeding FF are doing it in this manner so they have stronger and already established good cultures and don't have to wait for them to grow.

Some of the people on BYC are feeding large flocks such as yours~some keep several buckets going as a rolling process and some just cut to the chase and mix it in a large 30 gal. trash can and be done with it. One lady on there who has been doing this for a long time does just that. She feeds all her animals~dogs and horses included~from this trash can and has had the same ferment going for years now. It's sort of like sourdough...if you are adding fresh feed and stirring it each day or so, adding fresh water to keep it moist, you are golden.

Here's the link to the thread over there that another fellow and I started and all your questions have already been asked over there hundreds of times...they are helpful and are willing to answer them yet again to all newbies. Over 55K posts on just the subject of FF at your fingertips!

Fermented Feeds for Chickens on Backyard Chickens

Some of the people on BYC are feeding large flocks such as yours~some keep several buckets going as a rolling process and some just cut to the chase and mix it in a large 30 gal. trash can and be done with it. One lady on there who has been doing this for a long time does just that. She feeds all her animals~dogs and horses included~from this trash can and has had the same ferment going for years now. It's sort of like sourdough...if you are adding fresh feed and stirring it each day or so, adding fresh water to keep it moist, you are golden.

Hi, Jay...I had been under the impression that we would only want to give fermented feeds to omnivores & fowl, giving it to ruminants could endanger them for acidosis posioning because their body is designed to ferment internally. Is this incorrect...?

"Silage" is fermented feed. It is common to feed this to cows all winter.
Although, I have heard that this is an unwise practice.
(It certainly isn't their natural diet.)

It's been a lot of years, but that would be true, we put up corn in the wood/concrete silos and grass/alfalfa in the blue Harvestors. I fed a lot of cows either the corn or grass silage with some grain and a lot of hay. Maybe it was the amount given, because hay was definitely the majority...hmmm.

Hi folks: a quick google of "wheat sprouts for animal feed." Definitely worth a look.

http://wildrootshomestead.blogspot.com/2011/02/decided-on-sprouting-grain-for-goats.html
http://wildrootshomestead.blogspot.com/search?q=sprouts
http://www.peakprosperity.com/blog/growing-sprouted-fodder/72618

Regards,
Nancy Drew

Distillers grains for dairy cattle

Details on feeding fermented grains and silage to sheep

There are more articles than you can shake a stick at about feeding fermented feeds to livestock of all kinds. As with any change in feed for ruminants, it needs to be done gradually and appropriate roughage needs to be provided in addition to feeding grains of any kind.

I'm noticing that this thread is gravitating away from the topic Alec posed to us (we mean, no disrespect, Alec) and maybe, I was the cause of that. Perhaps, this should be moved to a thread of its own, however, that is done.

I'm feeling a concern over those of us that work multiple lines of animals and are using or considering using some form of fermented feed(s) and its safety and how/whether we should consider continuing or modify our method(s).

Apparently, 'trials & tests' have been done on whey and silage(s) according to Feedipedia.org with positive results, but some negative factors were shown as well, like Listeria (death occurred 3 weeks after injestion). I did not find any mention of acidosis, as I've been told previously. Something that seemed to stand out was the need to keep the pH lower, below 5.5 which would endorse the use of ACV or LAB in the fermentation process, rather than just soley relying on a natural ferment.

http://www.feedipedia.org/search/node/whey

http://www.feedipedia.org/search/node/silage

I don't want us to change something that has worked for us satisfactorily in the past, but I also don't want to be under the illusion that everything is Ok and just be balancing precariously on the edge and the 'luck' runs out when we need it the most. Harder times are coming and we need to be able to do/make more with less and not have costly mistakes come up an bite us...