Who are my new neighbours? (apparently now yellow jackets afterall)

First the yellow jackets were terrible.  Then they vanished.  Nest after nest disappearing.

AWESOME!

We must have Bald Faced Hornets.  My favourite!  Don't bug them, they don't bug you.

So we looked for the nest.

These aint no Bald Faced Hornets.

So far what we know is
- about 8 stand guard while a crew of about 5 dismantle a yellow jacket's net.
- The sting doesn't respond to baking soda, only vinegar.  It also makes a lot of these wasp/hornets swarm out of the nest towards where the humans are.
- They seem to respond more to motion and vibration than backing very slowly away.
- They are just as active at night as they are during the day
- about the same size or a touch smaller than yellow jackets, but with much longer legs
- Oh, and the tarp they built the nest on is about to fall down on my sheep if it keeps growing by about 20% by size per day, we figure about a week before all hell breaks loose.  Gonna get the sheep out of there tomorrow.  

Off the Left Coast British Columbia, Canada.  

Who are they and do they need to die?  

So I learned something new today... https://thepetenthusiast.com/wasps-at-night/
Yes, there are types of wasps that hunt at night, and are still active during the day.

I also have found that I am more reactive to some wasp stings than others. Do you have Benadryl in the house? It doesn't work systemically for me, but I crush 1/2 a pill, moisten it, and apply it topically over the sting and it seems to stop my body from over-reacting. I keep meaning to pick up some of the liquid children's version as that would be easier! I'm all for natural remedies, but I am considered an extreme reactor - not as bad as the dangerous anaphylactic type reaction, but I can swell to twice the size and it can last well over a week.

A picture showing more of the nest would help. The article suggests they may be the quietest just before dawn. In the past, we've used the paper bag over the nest, put it on the ground and stomp on it method, but that won't work on a really large nest. Big nests went into a metal garbage can and got lit on fire.

Knocking down a nest was ineffective when people I know tried it - they just kept rebuilding.

Some wasps are definitely more aggressive than others also. I've made a verbal pact with most of ours - they eat cabbage caterpillars for me, and I will leave them alone, so long as they don't sting me.  

Normally I wouldn't bother a nest like this.   Just wait until winter.  

I love the destruction of all yellow jackets and i suspect these are the only gals that eat tent caterpillars.

But the nest will fall down in a few days and if it lands on a chicken or sheep...or human.

Not good.

Don't know if we can use epi pens on chickens.

r ranson wrote:Normally I wouldn't bother a nest like this.   Just wait until winter.  

I totally agree. Sometimes they nest in the wrong spot, or are too aggressive. An unstable nest could hurt a lot of People, 2-legs, 4-legs and feathered, if the wasps panic when the nest comes down.

I don't suppose you can loosen 1 side of the tarp and lower it?

I've got lots of "friendly" wasps. I've read that wasps can recognize human faces and that if you talk to them nicely, they will recognize that you are not out to get them. So far, it mostly works. Last year there were a bunch that kept getting into our portable chicken shelters, and then I think they were "biting" me as opposed to stinging, as I've heard that biting is less reactive. We ended up moving our shelters away from that area as best we could.

Sadly lowering the tarp isn't an option without dismantling a chunk of the frame. They made it very clear that it would cause a problem.

I wish they had chosen a better spot.

Just before dawn eh?  So about 3 hours after finishing evening chores.  We'll see what happens.

I was hoping they were invasive and the government would remove them for free or something.

Those fake wasp nest work to prevent rebuilding.  I think that the dollar shop has some.  

r ranson wrote:I was hoping they were invasive and the government would remove them for free or something.

I think the invasive ones are much bigger than the ones in the picture.

I'd worry that the gov't would use a removal technique that you wouldn't like.

Someone on permies moved a wasp nest using a paper bag. They hung the bag far from the house on a tree. They were too scared to remove the bag, but that wasn't a problem because the wasps just ate themselves an exit! Those wasps had built on the underside of a children's swing seat! Bad Idea!

Has anyone tried the smokers used to calm honeybees on wasps? I wonder.

- - - - -

I guess I'm pretty hard-nosed about this. I will leave wasps alone if they leave me alone. Our local paper wasps fit this category. The yellowjackets building in the eaves of our house do not -- I know their tribe too well, and they are not interested in detente.

They are highly territorial; well guess what, so am I. If necessary, my shop vac trick will thin them out. I will harass and destroy, mechanically and with chemical irritants. I will plug holes. If safe to do so, I will employ fire. In the most desperate extreme, I will use what would be considered here the "nuclear bomb" option, which really sucks (only used once in nine years).

Tell me more about this shop vac trick of which you speak.

There seems to be a strong military class with these wasps.  They investigate motion and sound.  There seems to be a few dozen flying around.   They are also part of the coordination on the yellow jacket attacks.  These are going to be the most reactivate.   If we can thin them out a bit first...



Fire is out as it's too dry.  But, I wonder if I can borrow a smoker from a bee keeper.

Would the nest sink in water?

We had a similar discussion before:  https://permies.com/t/224694/yellow-jackets

To thin out problem wasps, I set up a shop vac with a 10' pipe as an extension to the nozzle. I prop it up in front of their hole, turn it on, and walk away for a while. Bump bump bump down the pipe they go. When I turn it off, I seal the end of the pipe. They usually expire in a day or so. If necessary, I will unseal the pipe and repeat the treatment the next day.

If they're not causing a problem and it is just the worry about the tarp falling that is your concern, is it possible to prop up the tarp with some sort of support so that it won't fall? I'm thinking like an open topped stool around the nest and then put blocks underneath to support it. Would they stand for that do you think?

Hi R,
You mention you don't think they are bald faced hornets... could they be European bald faced hornets? They are still known for taking out yellow jackets, but have coloring closer to what I see in your picture.

You say they're not yellowjackets, but the Wikipedia article on yellowjackets says that term encompasses several species in two different genera (including bald-faced hornets...weird). The diversity makes me wonder if you just have a different "yellowjacket" than the ones you're used to. And the one genus builds arial nests like that more than the other:

Wikipedia wrote:Dolichovespula species such as the aerial yellowjacket, D. arenaria, and the bald-faced hornet, tend to create exposed aerial nests.

So I asked a local naturalist and these are European paper wasps.  Considered harmful to agriculture due to excessive fruit harvest damage. I'm seeing them devouring the cherries already.

But also known for bug control.

The tarp is part of a shelter logic sheep shelter,  so it's about 15 to 20 feet high. It's going to be quite the splat when it finally comes down.

I get that this nest will cause major problems when it falls, a tarp isn't stable and someone's going to get hurt.
So how exactly can you get rid of it?
I was reading that smoke doesn't have the same effects on wasps as on bees.
So far it seems like the options are:
-shopvac
-evacuate your animals, put on a bee suit, knock down the nest and destroy ("piñata and fire party"
-dismantle/lower/otherwise adjust the shelter to remove the nest

Or... just thinking out loud.
If it's that high. I googled the shelters and imagine it must be along the peak of the structure, so the real risk is the nest falling, not the wasps right now. Could you put something under the nest so that if/when it falls, it will fall there instead of on your animals? Rig up a hammocky type thing? A tall platform? a high table? (not sure how viable that is with sheep).

To be frank, there is no way I can get up that high.  Second rung of a ladder is about my limit.  I don't even like being this tall.

The final decision won't be mine, but I am looking for less nuclear options while still keeping our ladder goer safe.

I don't know if it really matters, but the sources I'm seeing online show that the nests of the European paper wasp (Polistes dominula) are the sort of prototypical 'wasp nest' under the eaves of the house where the cells are visible from below, not a big enclosed nest like hornets make.

The wasps I have seen here do make hanging lantern type nests and to the untrained eye look like the ones R has pictured. I don't know if they are European paper wasps but they are presumably European wasps of some kind. They also can nest in the ground (as out mastiff found out when a puppy - ouch!). Generally early in the season they are more carnivorous and will pick off your aphids and caterpillars for you. Later they develop that sweet tooth and are more of a nuisance buzzing round your drinks and fruit.

Tereza Okava wrote: Rig up a hammocky type thing? A tall platform? a high table? (not sure how viable that is with sheep).

Yes, the trick is to get something in place without People getting hurt.

1. So this is a metal pipe shelter covered in a tarp, correct?  Where approximately is the nest relative to the structure?

2. Can you go anywhere near the vertical pipes without getting stung? How about going as high as the first horizontal pipes?

3. Do you have a small tarp or piece of cloth (6'x8' minimum)? And lots of rope?

I'm thinking you tie long ropes in multiple places around the small tarp. The ladder climber needs to get each rope end over the appropriate section of pipe - may need to hook the rope to a stick to be further from the risks. The ropes need to be long enough that people can be a fair distance away while the tarp is still lying innocently on the ground. You may need extra people with opposable thumbs who take direction well. All the ropes get pulled at once, and you now have a "hammocky type barrier" between the nest and the ground. People are far enough away, that the wasps attack the new scary hammock instead of the people pulling the ropes. Wasps calm down after realizing the scary new tarp isn't actually attacking them. If their nest falls, they may just attach it to the lower tarp and keep using it if you're really lucky.

Potential problems - A) You need safe places to tie off those long ropes where they won't be an ongoing hazard to all the People using the area.

B) If the new tarp is completely under the shelter tarp, rain water pooling shouldn't be an issue. If it isn't, that's still not an issue for several months in your ecosystem unless Mother Nature does something weirder than usual.

C) Wind could be an issue. I'm assuming wind would be a factor that could cause the nest to fall?

This may not work, but it also may give you other ideas that will work. I wouldn't have thought of it if not for Tereza's good idea about the hammock!

Update, the tarp is slowly tearing and lowering the nest.  This is promising as in a few days it will be reachable by ground so whoever gets to deal with the nest has a quick escape unlike up a ladder.  It also means an unlikely sudden fall and wasp-plosion.  


One of the biggest troubles I'm having is the regional variation in the naming of insects.  In this town, we name by feature and tend to ignore scientific classifications.  

For example, bald (bauld/bal/etc) means white (or used to mean white), thus a bald eagles, bald face (white face) hornets, piebald horses, etc.  So we use the word "bald faced hornets" because they are hornets with white faces.  Paper wasps is a general category for what makes the closed nest shape - not necessarily the scientific distinction.  Not because that's actually what they are.  Just sort of as a general description to talk with each other.

Yellow jackets can best be described as  



The thread also has this fun video of the benefits of having these little guys as neighbours.



They remind me a lot of this video I took years ago after we broke open a caterpillar tent.




And, if I'm not mistake, these are the apiary robbers my human neighbour complains of each fall.  It certainly fits with what they are doing to yellow jacket nests.  The bald faced just kill and eat the wasps.  These guys dismantle the nests as well.  

Talk about regional variation.

What is called Yellow Jackets here are really paper wasps and these "paper wasps" are the real yellow jackets. https://westsidepestcontrol.com/wasp-nest-identification/

Which is terrifying because our "yellow jackets" (actually paperwasps) are angry monsters come warm weather.  They will sting as soon as look at a person.  But at least they don't swarm out to keep stinging the victims.  They like one-on-one fights.

These "paper wasps" (actually yellow jackets) are very keen to swarm and attack when they detect a stinger being used.  They seem to like a 200 to 1 fight.  

So what I thought as a horrible horrible yellow jacket, is really just a mild paper wasp.  oh dear.

OK, so who builds the nests that look more like mud than paper in the PNW?

I'm pretty sure the definition of farming involves juggling competing emergencies.  

There's always a priority list of stuff that needed doing months ago, and Things jump to the top and push others down... so, um, hopefully the next few days the extremely large nest will be gone.  

They are still contemplating how so if you have any more permaculture ideas, we've got until Tuesday to convince them.  

I've had to deal with wasps a few times. I commented on the post Douglas linked to above, (("My method of dealing with it is to cover myself completely, with tightly sealing layers and a wide brimmed mosquito-net hat, (maybe a bee-keepers suit would be ideal.?) so that I have little/no chance of being stung. Then I get my tools, and a smoky area to retreat to. I take apart what is needed to get to the hive and destroy it as quickly as possible. I've used metal cans with a small amount of gas in them, (danger!) and cut the nest off into the can and sealed it. Just as it's getting dark is best, as they are mostly in the nest then. Sometimes the ones that I didn't get will rebuild in the same spot. I sometimes spray some hornet spray where the nest was to try and deter the rebuilding. ")) - I have the same can of wasp spray from around 20 years ago, still mostly full.. I most likely wouldn't buy it again.  
In your situation, if possible, I would maybe use a garbage can or a large construction grade garbage bag to drop the nest into, (or place it carefully under where it looks like it will lower itself onto/into as it falls.) Then put a lid on the can/tie up the bag, move it far away, and leave a small opening for them to find their way out of... or try to destroy it quickly and safely.

It came down in the night with a mighty thud while we were finishing the chores.  It's interesting how staying calm and moving slowly got us away from them without a sting.  All I want to do is run when there are so many stinging buzzing things.

Curious how it will be this morning.  Procrastinating going out there.

One of the reasons for the delay in getting it down is these little guys love eating aphids.  It's been a nasty year for aphids, and it's nice to have some natural insect control.  If they choose to make a nest in a nicer location, we wouldn't mind their help around the farm.  

Another thing we observed, that they also make a great human deterrent.

It would be a great tool for introverts if we didn't have to make friends with a thousand or so wasps.  sigh.  there's always a compromise.  

r ranson wrote:Another thing we observed, that they also make a great human deterrent.

It would be a great tool for introverts if we didn't have to make friends with a thousand or so wasps...  

Alas, unfortunately, the humans they deter tend to rile them all up before being deterred. Makes it risky for the rest of us!

I just wish they'd post warning flags of their location. I did *not* need my dominant hand swollen to twice its normal size for 2 days when I disturbed a wasp that I had no clue was there. Now that I've figured out a treatment that works for me, at least it was only 2 days and not they 10 it used to be!

Observations today.

There are very few worker class wasps now.  They seem to be focused on going far away without the military class.

The military class is focused on rebuilding the house in the old location.  They are taking from the old hive.  They are also engaged in local gathering from the garden and water.  This is usually worker class jobs.  The military are much more aggressive.

There is very little focus on hunting insects today.

However, going near the nest hasn't caused much fuss.  It's more going near their water source that gets them bothered.  Although, I haven't had the courage to pick up the old nest yet to get it away from them as  a source of building material.  

To me, it feels like they have a back up plan for this event already ready and it only took about half an hour to put it into action.  Kind of scary as it would take a lot longer for me to deal with my house falling down.  

My idea is to spray grease on the new nest to discourage them to build in that location.  

comedy and stuff including whacking with a stick.  It's too heavy to lift to put in a container.  

Eventually we got to thinking - these wasps go to a lot of effort to put their nests where the rain cannot go.  Would water do the trick?

OH MY YES!  The nest fell apart under water like an ice sculpture melting in the sun.  The remaining wasps are very angry now.  

I feel for you! My reactions are terrible (I use plantain to sooth itch and swelling) and they always seem to nest in those dry, east facing spots...where we have our two most often used doors. We've been getting them under our siding where we cannot get to. The quote earlier was from my thread asking for help. I vac'd hundreds of wasps! It helped immensely! I set up our shop vac propped up and as close to the entrance as possible, with a long pipe taped on the hose. I would run it for an hour sometimes. The population stayed low enough for us to still use our house and spigot safely. When weather turned cold, they stop. This early spring, before they got warmed up and busy again, we sprayed treated foam spray in their nesting site (in a very tight spot, just between the rubble foundation and wall) and we've had no problems this year. Whew! They are around, but not in our walls.

I should probably put all that in MY old post.

My point is that despite any benefits, safety is very important for my family and critters. I think you were lucky the way everything transpired (no hurt sheep? whew!) but I'd be really aggressive in my approach to keep them from choosing that site again! We tried so many natural products, methods, deterrents, etc before buying chemicals. Nothing worked because they were so hidden. I even hung fly paper and THEY WALKED ACROSS IT and got in their nest. I would love a deterrent that is effective, especially something that I don't have to apply/manage frequently.

An interesting side effect of dissolving the next with water is that the ants came and started taking away the young and ... is it honey?  Let's say food storage.

But even still, they were very quickly rebuilding the nest.

The nest is gone now.  Due to time factors, they used... well, you know.

There are a few despondent workers trying to rebuild the nest.  A few confused military flying around with no purpose.  

But the experience got me thinking that there must be some way to take what we observed and get nature to do the work for us.  

Maybe taking the nest when it's still small enough to lift, stirring up the ant hill, then placing the nest on top.  That might take care of things quickly.  The ants we get here are about the only thing more bitchy than the wasps.  

Or maybe something else?

On the whole, the wasps did more good than harm.  It was the location that caused the problem.  So we'll get some of those fake nests and hang them in the places we don't want them.  See if that works.

Yellow Jackets vs Fire Ants... now that would be an interesting battle.