Grant Creek permaculture project genesis thread

I have been interested in permaculture for a few years now and it is finally time for me to break ground. Step 1 is swales so that tress can start growing and I can get some shade! Power is available at the west boundary but my plan is to have everything off grid using solar panels and water batteries in the form of ponds, one at the top(E) and one at the bottom(W) connected by and underground pipe. All comments, unsolicited advice, and dad jokes are appreciated.

Swales are the perfect thing for a tropical climate.  For missoula, I think a lot of ponds, terraces and hugelkultur would make you happier.  Swales in a cold climate makes a lot of frost pockets.

Paul might be right about that. I did swale lines on my property but I haven't lived on it yet to watch how it works. I plan to do keyline rips on contour, crimping and/or rotational grazing.

Thank you for the suggestions, I will do more flat type of terraces. Similar to the old logging roads that are overrun with vegetation now.

Are there particular types of trees you plan on utilizing? Food/Fodder/Fun?

You have a great canvas, I'd love to hear more about your plans.

The fruit tree plan is apples and a variety of apricot that grows wild all over mineral county. There's ponderosa, Doug fir, and rocky mountain juniper growing wild already so I'm just going to let those go crazy for now. Right now the choke cherries are out of control but I will leave them for the birds at the moment.  

I want to move the driveway north onto the south facing slope, that will be the largest earth moving project.

Trees are very good.

I would harvest the conifers as the years pass (conifers don't play well with others).  And for every tree you add, think diversity.  No more than 10% of your trees should be one species.

Moving the road to the south slope will help melt snow and reclaim valuable gentle sloped part of the land. The picture shows the upper pond.

I need lots of trees. Any suggestions for your favorite tree in Missoula? I am looking to buy a bunch of saplings.

Childhood stories are always a welcome tangent.

The backbone of this project is critical to get correct. There is an existing natural drainage valley that will be used to burry a Pumped Hydrogen Electrical Storage (PHES) pipes that will have dual purpose as a trout farm. The PHES system will be in conjunction with lithium battery storage. I had a little conversation with Grok and it gave me some useful information.

Got it—your ponds are set at **800 m³ each**, which is very close to the 809.4 m³ from the earlier oversized hybrid design. That gives us a solid starting point to refine the system, keeping the 60-ft (18.3-m) elevation delta, the 11.9 kWh/day Missoula home target, and the trout habitat goal. I’ll assume you still want solar to pump water and batteries to buffer, but we’ll optimize to reduce losses and complexity based on your last question. Let’s nail this down.

### Step 1: Hydro Energy Storage
Each pond holds 800 m³:
- Mass: \( m = 800 \cdot 1000 = 800,000 \, \text{kg} \).
- Energy: \( E = m \cdot g \cdot h \cdot \eta \)
 \[ E = 800,000 \cdot 9.81 \cdot 18.3 \cdot 0.85 \approx 121,900,000 \, \text{J} = 121.9 \, \text{MJ} \]
 \[ E = \frac{121.9 \times 10^6}{3,600,000} \approx 33.86 \, \text{kWh} \]

Total storage: **33.86 kWh**—nearly 3x the 11.9 kWh/day need, offering flexibility.

### Step 2: Daily Energy and Flow
To deliver 11.9 kWh/day (batteries or load):
- Ideal energy: 11.9 kWh = 42.84 MJ.
- Volume: \( V = \frac{E}{g \cdot h \cdot \eta \cdot \rho} = \frac{42.84 \times 10^6}{9.81 \cdot 18.3 \cdot 0.85 \cdot 1000} \approx 280.7 \, \text{m}^3 \).
- Over 24 hours: \( Q = \frac{280.7}{86,400} \approx 0.00325 \, \text{m}^3/\text{s} \) (3.25 L/s).

Using 280.7 m³ daily leaves ~519.3 m³ in each pond—stable for trout.

### Step 3: Solar Pumping Energy
Pump 280.7 m³/day against 18.3 m:
- Power: \( P = \frac{\rho \cdot g \cdot h \cdot Q}{\eta} = \frac{1000 \cdot 9.81 \cdot 18.3 \cdot 0.00325}{0.85} \approx 686 \, \text{W} \).
- Energy: \( E = 686 \cdot 86,400 \approx 59,250,000 \, \text{J} = 16.46 \, \text{kWh/day} \).

Solar input (80% efficiency):
\[ E_{\text{solar}} = \frac{16.46}{0.8} \approx 20.58 \, \text{kWh/day} \]
Missoula, 4.5 sun hours:
\[ P_{\text{solar}} = \frac{20.58}{4.5} \approx 4.57 \, \text{kW} \]
A **5 kW solar array** works (round up for reliability).

### Step 4: Battery Buffer
- Capacity: 15 kWh (covers 11.9 kWh + losses; 90% efficient, ~1.5 kWh lost).
- Hydro recharges 11.9 kWh/day at 0.5 kW (11.9 kWh ÷ 24 h = 0.496 kW).

### Step 5: Equipment
- **Turbine**: 0.5-1 kW, 3.25 L/s flow.
- **Pump**: 0.75-1 kW, 3.25 L/s.
- **Pipe**: For 0.00325 m³/s at 2 m/s:
 \[ A = \frac{0.00325}{2} = 0.001625 \, \text{m}^2, \, D = 2 \sqrt{\frac{0.001625}{\pi}} \approx 0.0455 \, \text{m} \]
 A **2-inch pipe** (5 cm) is fine.

### Step 6: Trout Habitat
- 800 m³/pond, cycling 280.7 m³/day, leaves ~519 m³ stable.
- Depth (e.g., 63 ft diameter, 4 ft deep = 403 m² × 2 m = 806 m³, close enough).
- ~20-40 trout/pond (10-20 m³/fish), viable with aeration if needed.

### Step 7: Losses and Complexity Check
- **Hydro**: 11.9 kWh output from 16.46 kWh input (~72% efficient).
- **Battery**: 11.9 kWh out, 13.2 kWh in (~90%).
- **Solar**: 20.58 kWh out, 25.7 kWh in (~80%).
- **Total**: 25.7 kWh solar → 11.9 kWh usable = ~46% end-to-end.
- Still lossy, but simpler than before (smaller solar, no oversized flow).

### Optimized Design
- **Ponds**: 800 m³ each (~63 ft diameter, 4 ft deep).
- **Elevation**: 60 ft (18.3 m).
- **Hydro**: 33.86 kWh, using 280.7 m³/day.
- **Solar**: 5 kW (~22 kWh/day).
- **Battery**: 15 kWh.
- **Pipe**: 2-inch.
- **Turbine/Pump**: 0.5-1 kW.
- **Trout**: ~20-40/pond.

### Final Thoughts
You’re not overcomplicating it too much now—800 m³ ponds are reasonable, and the solar (5 kW) and battery (15 kWh) are standard sizes. Losses are still high (~54%), but that’s the trade-off for hydro + trout + battery flexibility. To simplify further:
- Drop batteries, use hydro directly (16.46 kWh/day solar → 11.9 kWh, ~72% efficient).
- But with 800 m³ locked in, this hybrid keeps trout happy and power steady.


Additional functions of trench will include power cable and geothermal energy piping. I considered putting the geothermal into the pond but that could always be done later.

I need saplings, any recommendations?

I’d check your with state extension office. It is a wetter, more mild climate in SW WA, but Burnt Ridge Nursery sells pretty well priced trees with options for 10x and 100x bundles of PNW natives and fruit tree root stock. They also sell chestnut, hazelnut and walnut seeds. Seedlings have grow better in challenging conditions in my observation.

For apple tree stock, I’d look into anywhere doing cider pressing this fall (or organize one) and ask to use the mash for local productive seed stock (spread in a 1-2” layer with woodchips on top). This has been the source of my most robust trees on challenging soils. Of course the same could be done with other tree fruits’ seeds if you could get a pressing or canning party with plums, peaches or cherries.

Finally broke ground on the homesite. Some good topsoil over layers of clay. My goal is to return the landscape back to a more natural form by covering some roads with topsoil. Might build a hobbit house under the trees.

Great to be finally moving some dirt! What’s your plan for the home?

The major consideration of my plan is to mitigate fire danger from hillside below. The wind really whips up the valley. There are several layers of protection including the driveway, pond, garden and chicken pasture. I haven't designed a house yet because I was waiting to finish the site excavation and then plan around what I have available. The dirt needs to sit for a couple years so that it naturally settles itself. This is just a basic layout for now, more detailed designs are in the works.

Gorgeous piece of land, reminds me of Sepp Holzer's, a lot of things going for it. Congrats on getting started! So much stuff will grow there. Re: fire mitigation - I think that's just going to take time, and there's a trade-off. But your initial plan (garden, pond) sounds good. A pond above your home site could also be useful, maybe with the spillway meandering and eventually feeding your lower pond. For me, I am trying to keep my earth covered, so that means during dry spells my cover is dry and tallish and not great if a fire happens. So some praying is involved Enjoy your amazing journey.