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A Cyclone in a rocket!  RSS feed

 
Satamax Antone
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This is badly in need of a good burn to remove the paint. And then 55 galon drum cut to the height of the gas botle. Filled with vermiculite. Then a proper heat riser. Drum of pipe over the heat riser.  What else other than vermiculite could i use for the heat riser? I would like to keep it light. Because that's my only way of cleaning. through the top
 
Satamax Antone
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So guys, one question, can i use galvanised tube for the outside of the heat riser? The radiator will be barrels. And how long does the galvanised steel offgasses for if put in such a hot environement?

And does vermiculite hold heat? Or should i need to put bricks for this in the bottom part.

I mean, i want to use a cut up 55 gallons barrel for the bottom part, cut around 2 feet, to put the gaz bottle in it, insulate the bottle with vermiculite, i'll have enough in a bag to fill the cut up 55 gal barrel around the bottle, and do the heat riser with it. But if it doesn't hold any heat, it would be cleverer that towards the outside i put some mass which holds the heat a bit to release it later.

What's your opinion on it?

Thanks a lot.

Max.
 
Len Ovens
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Satamax wrote:
So guys, one question, can i use galvanised tube for the outside of the heat riser? The radiator will be barrels. And how long does the galvanised steel offgasses for if put in such a hot environement?


Anyone who uses galvanised steel, burns it off outside before they use it... personally, stove pipe is cheaper than the medical bills down the road... even brand new, I have seen single wall stove pipe for less than $10 (Canadian) for 36in.


And does vermiculite hold heat? Or should i need to put bricks for this in the bottom part.


"Hold heat"? Do you mean insulate (hold the heat in) or store (keep heat within itself)? It does the first but not the second. They are mutually exclusive.

Hope that answers some of your questions.
 
Satamax Antone
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Len wrote:
Anyone who uses galvanised steel, burns it off outside before they use it... personally, stove pipe is cheaper than the medical bills down the road... even brand new, I have seen single wall stove pipe for less than $10 (Canadian) for 36in.

"Hold heat"? Do you mean insulate (hold the heat in) or store (keep heat within itself)? It does the first but not the second. They are mutually exclusive.

Hope that answers some of your questions.



Thanks a lot for your reply Len.

Well, where i live, in France, stove pipe is hard to come by in stainless of painted steel cheap. There's a skip just nearby which had a galvanised pipe which should be of the right diameter and long enough to go around my stainless steel pipe to form the heat riser. Well, i might scavenge some bricks to fill the bottom part to give it a litle mass to heat and hold heat.

Thanks again.

Max.
 
Len Ovens
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Satamax wrote:
There's a skip just nearby which had a galvanised pipe which should be of the right diameter and long enough to go around my stainless steel pipe to form the heat riser. Well, i might scavenge some bricks to fill the bottom part to give it a litle mass to heat and hold heat.


Burn it well outside... stand upwind while doing it.... don't tell the neighbours what is going on

I am not sure what change in colour/texture should be seen to  know when it is all gone. Maybe do a search for the word "galvanised" as I am sure I have seen mention of this before.
 
Satamax Antone
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Hi Len.

Well, gave it another try as it is. To try to remove the paint off of the gaz botle. Well, doesn't seem to do much! That paint is tough stuff. I've fed it a bucket of pine already. It's burning outside on a pavement stone.

To explain what i have tried, instead of doing a simple usual pocket rocket, i've tried to induce a cyclonic effect in the gaz bottle, to lenghten the time the gases stay in the burning part of the stove. Check bill Pentz site for cyclone related things. Basicaly, what i have done is a circumférencial inlet with a neutral vane. Works wonderfully tonight. Didn't take long to light. Didn't smoke or barely. Now it's smoking a litle. But i've tried to put the galvanised tube around to check if the temp and draw would increase just by raising the inter tube temp. I've put a miror above the chimney, to see if the cyclonic effect was happening in the bottom. And guess what i can't see realy. It seems that most of the wood is already burnt by the time it goes through the 1' long horizontal tube. But i already had steam on the miror.
 
kent smith
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galvanized is the term for hot dipped galvanized steel. Steel objects are cleaned with acids and a base material to clean the surface then dipped into molten zinc. The zinc both alloys to the steel then builds up a layer of zinc on the surface of the steel. What burns off of galvanized steel is the zinc which is toxic at some levels.
kent
 
Satamax Antone
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machinemaker wrote:
galvanized is the term for hot dipped galvanized steel. Steel objects are cleaned with acids and a base material to clean the surface then dipped into molten zinc. The zinc both alloys to the steel then builds up a layer of zinc on the surface of the steel. What burns off of galvanized steel is the zinc which is toxic at some levels.
kent


Thanks Kent.

I know, i did some engineering (is this the right term in the states for somebody who did turning, milling, shaping, rectifying, welding etc at school, brits say this)  The only thing is i wonder how long the zinc évaporates for. My usual engineering forum is down for three days. So i can't ask there either!
 
Satamax Antone
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Starting to take shape.

Insulation, heat riser and casing are all done.









 
Satamax Antone
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Finished thingy!



It is burning.
 
Len Ovens
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Satamax wrote:
Finished thingy!



Nice looking "thingy". How much heat does it throw off? You look to be wearing a jacket warmer than I need here (still wearing shorts and T-shirt to work outside during the day... maybe a wind break at night) So it could be useful. 4inch? You may be able to use the flue for a water heater or furnace.
 
Satamax Antone
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Hi Len, well, thanks for the comment about it being cool looking.

It doesn't heat up much. It is touchable on the radiator. It's not me on the pic! That's friend Lawrence. But i live at nearly 5000 feet. So it's getting chillier now. It's about 4 inch inlet. And one piece of wood is kind of overpowering it! I think i need a bigger flue.
 
Len Ovens
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Satamax wrote:
Hi Len, well, thanks for the comment about it being cool looking.

It doesn't heat up much. It is touchable on the radiator. It's not me on the pic! That's friend Lawrence. But i live at nearly 5000 feet. So it's getting chillier now. It's about 4 inch inlet. And one piece of wood is kind of overpowering it! I think i need a bigger flue.


Those who have built lots say that 6inch is the minimum for this style of heater (with the barrel ... rocket stoves work smaller) I was going to try 4inch with my water heater tank, but have decided that enough experimenting has been done in that area and will use 6inch. 8inch would be too big as there needs to be room for insulation outside of the riser and then room for the flue gasses to go down too.

I have got my riser pipe and will use Roxul to insulate it. I am setting up my water tank so that it should come apart easily for routine maint. I cut all the way around about 12 inches up. I have cut the fire tunnel and exit holes into the lower part. After the riser is put in place, the top is lower on top. I'll put gasket at the seam and latches to hold it tight.

I'm planning on wraping the "barrel" with about 700 lbs (1/3 ton) of three hole brick standing in rows soldier style with wire or strap to hold them against the barrel. ( I was using these bricks for playing around making a burn tunnel and riser... it worked fine (no barrel) but I felt the bricks came too close to the barrel and being square would create hot or cool spots on the barrel.

I have some ideas for a bench/radiator, but I will do some testing with just what I have first... one step at a time means I only (should ) have to step back one step at a time.

How hot is the exhaust?
 
Satamax Antone
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Exhaust is in the 60 celcius range i think. You can leave your hand in it forever. The radiator is hoter for sure.
 
                      
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Cool looking build. I am curious to what you will use this as, a constant heat source, or just occasional? In a cabin?
 
Satamax Antone
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ytram wrote:
Cool looking build. I am curious to what you will use this as, a constant heat source, or just occasional? In a cabin?


Thanks.

It's for my workshop. We'll see how it goes. Burner being soo small. I might rebuild one with the leftover 21 gallon gaz bottle. The one i have cut up and the other i've got left would make a perfect J shape. But the problem, they're 12, so it's out of the usual range, and hard to find ideas to insulate, etc.
 
Satamax Antone
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So, here's  alitle update. I've done a air jacket around the radiator to draw the hot air into the insulated part of the workshop.

Don't know if it gonna warm it up in the midle of the winter, but for the moment, i get a good 25°30° at the fan.







 
Satamax Antone
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Well, change of plans, rocket gonna go in the workshop, without the air tube, well may be  just the jacket, an elbow and a fan.


And, i've got mass!





That's half of a cubic meter of bricks, plus the sole parts of an old comunautary baking oven. The oven had been there for about 400 years, but the bricks seem newer. All metric. They've been sitting in the cellar of a friend since the sixties. He took over the house three years ago, and wanted them out! Sure mate, i've got the van!
 
Len Ovens
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Satamax wrote:

Well, change of plans, rocket gonna go in the workshop, without the air tube, well may be  just the jacket, an elbow and a fan.


And, i've got mass!


That's half of a cubic meter of bricks, plus the sole parts of an old comunautary baking oven. The oven had been there for about 400 years, but the bricks seem newer. All metric. They've been sitting in the cellar of a friend since the sixties. He took over the house three years ago, and wanted them out! Sure mate, i've got the van!


Great find! The one thing I have noticed with mass... don't expect heat real soon after setting the fire. It takes time to heat that stuff up. I am ready to move my unit inside...
 
Satamax Antone
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So, i moved the stove into the workshop, and added mass.

I went from 10C° to 14C° in three or four hours. But the stove didn't heat to too quick, since i've used ash, instead of larch. Tomorow, i'll give it a good burn.



 
Len Ovens
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Satamax wrote:
So, i moved the stove into the workshop, and added mass.

I went from 10C° to 14C° in three or four hours. But the stove didn't heat to too quick, since i've used ash, instead of larch. Tomorow, i'll give it a good burn.



How long did the bricks stay warm?
 
Satamax Antone
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Len wrote:
How long did the bricks stay warm?
Huh, they didn't even get the chance to get warm   4 is small! Tomorow, as it's raining outside, i'll try burning for longer.
 
Len Ovens
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Satamax wrote:
Huh, they didn't even get the chance to get warm   4 is small! Tomorow, as it's raining outside, i'll try burning for longer.


Maybe mass is not for you...
 
Satamax Antone
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Len wrote:
Maybe mass is not for you...



Well, now that it's around it, it stays where is is
 
Len Ovens
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Satamax wrote:

Well, now that it's around it, it stays where is is


Ja, makes sense. If the heater is fired pretty much all day, it may feel cool still, but keep the shop from cooling as much over night.
 
Satamax Antone
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I raised the temp about four degrees yesterday. Suffering from insomnia now, so i fired it again, and it was down to 12C° so it droped 2C° in about four hours. May be i'm kind of sorted.  Otherwise i take the thing out and make it 6".
 
Satamax Antone
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So long burn today!

Started it at 9.30 this morn, went back upstairs, went back down about an hour and a half later, the fire was almost gone due to a piece of wood getting stuck. Started it again, and i went up to prepair food, got back there during lunch, it was cold. Started it again at 14h, and been burning constantly till 20h, raised the temp from 12 to 19, and the bricks heat up.  So this might be ok, if i keep firing it every now and then between my days off, when i plan to work.
 
Len Ovens
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Satamax wrote:
So long burn today!

Started it at 9.30 this morn, went back upstairs, went back down about an hour and a half later, the fire was almost gone due to a piece of wood getting stuck. Started it again, and i went up to prepair food, got back there during lunch, it was cold. Started it again at 14h, and been burning constantly till 20h, raised the temp from 12 to 19, and the bricks heat up.  So this might be ok, if i keep firing it every now and then between my days off, when i plan to work.


19C? sounds nice if so. Thats where we keep our house (the rooms we are using at the time... other wise the thermostat is set to 12C) most of the time except my YF's office at 21C. Down here in the room the RMH will end up it is 15C. With a sweater on it is quite comfortable... it does feel a bit chilly when it gets down to 12C or so, but doesn't seem to go lower because of the thermal mass of the earth.
 
Satamax Antone
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Hey Len, 19C° at aproximately sight level. I plan to heat the workshop up that temp in the winter if i can, i'd love to get back to making guitars. And it's the only time i can do this. Mind you, i started with about twelve  degrees. Sometimes in the winter, when it's about -20 or 25 outside, the earth doesn't insulate enough, and it gets down to nearly freezing in there. 

I think, out of sheer luck, with the cyclonic effect , the height of the feed tube etc, i've built a good four incher.  It was roaring mad in there, and the "chimney" tubes didn't get to the point that i couldn't hold my hands on them.

If one day, in the future, when you have plumbed yours in place, you have time, try making a cyclonic rocket. Everybody seemed to say four incher was too small and didn't work. Well, mine's not too bad.
 
Len Ovens
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Satamax wrote:
Hey Len, 19C° at aproximately sight level. I plan to heat the workshop up that temp in the winter if i can, i'd love to get back to making guitars. And it's the only time i can do this. Mind you, i started with about twelve  degrees. Sometimes in the winter, when it's about -20 or 25 outside, the earth doesn't insulate enough, and it gets down to nearly freezing in there. 


I have a book on making guitars... but I am not good at finish work. All of our acoustic Guitars (My YFs, mine and the one passed down from my dad, a classical) are made in Quebec. Nice sound, not fancy and the price is right. They seem to have gone really light on the finish and seem very responsive... seem to sing right through my chest.


I think, out of sheer luck, with the cyclonic effect , the height of the feed tube etc, i've built a good four incher.   It was roaring mad in there, and the "chimney" tubes didn't get to the point that i couldn't hold my hands on them.

If one day, in the future, when you have plumbed yours in place, you have time, try making a cyclonic rocket. Everybody seemed to say four incher was too small and didn't work. Well, mine's not too bad.


There are a few that seem ok. They all have the same kind of thing you have... no mass touching the barrel, and no long pipe through a bench with turns and stuff. I think your chimney flue helps pull things through. This is also the comment of someone else who made one with a 3inch riser. Both of the other two could use an insulated burn area/tunnel in my opinion. But they are used in a smaller space and because there is no mass they would not be used with a long burn as the room gets too hot as one of them mentioned.

Theory is great... what actually works is often something else. There are a lot of variables and yours is quite different from the standard cob jobs. I think the standard cob bench style would choke at 4inches. There are still lots of things to try. Mine is already unique in more than one way (even being 6 inch and all) and my mass benches are unique I think even in the masonry stove world... though not in concept. My "two floor" mass is a bit different if I can get it to work.... when I have time and more water heater cores There are "two floor" systems out there where the chimney has a labyrinth through extra mass on the second floor. (this is aside from those where one stove supports another one floor up) My ideas are to take these concepts which are normally very expensive to implement and do them within reach of "the rest of us".
 
Satamax Antone
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Hey Len, i know there's plenty to try.

On mine, i have about 4 feet of slanted flue, well, one elbow, 3' of tube, one elbow, then i have 13' of horizontal. then the thickness of the wall, about 2', then again about 13', this time, of vertical, and an elvow pointing to the ground as exhaust. My inlet is 105mm, then gaz botle of 1', then 139mm heat riser, then the big gaz botle as the radiator/barrell, then, i exhaust in 111mm, up to the wall. Then it gets a bit wobley. , then into the old chimney, which is 12x20 aproximately, the section of a 8 incher. Then, 153mm for the last elbow.

I thought that was quite a long run.
 
Len Ovens
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Satamax wrote:
Hey Len, i know there's plenty to try.

On mine, i have about 4 feet of slanted flue, well, one elbow, 3' of tube, one elbow, then i have 13' of horizontal. then the thickness of the wall, about 2', then again about 13', this time, of vertical, and an elvow pointing to the ground as exhaust. My inlet is 105mm, then gaz botle of 1', then 139mm heat riser, then the big gaz botle as the radiator/barrell, then, i exhaust in 111mm, up to the wall. Then it gets a bit wobley. , then into the old chimney, which is 12x20 aproximately, the section of a 8 incher. Then, 153mm for the last elbow.

I thought that was quite a long run.


Less than 20 feet of horizontal...  A good 6 inch will do 30ft easy and an 8inch 40 to 50.

Looking back over the pictures... it looks like the first run is the horizontal run? (looks more than 4 feet... but hard to tell) Anyway, the last bit of flue makes up for a lot. It is stone and probably at least a bit warmer than outside. Apparently even one degree difference is helpful to the chimney effect (this from "solar chimney" designs that go as high as 3/4km for this reason)... then as it heats up a bit that would be increased. As you say the high riser helps a lot too. And swirl may help break up things more so there is less surface friction (the problem with small inch systems in "theory". So much for the "smaller than 6 inch doesn't work" theory. It doesn't work with the standard design... because it has been tried.... But you have found a way around that   Congrats.

I was thinking of doing a 4in system at least to try because it is much easier to find 4in square and round tube that are thicker that stove pipe. However, One of the things I have been reading in the testing done on the first RMHs and masonry heaters is that there is a difference between the gasses close to the tube side and that in the centre. The surface friction slows the gasses close to the side walls is much cooler than the centre. The thought with the early RMH was to keep the CSA the same but squeeze it to force the hot gasses against the passage surface, but this would create too much surface friction and slow down the flue gas flow.... and give smoke back. So... they have gone with a long pipe instead to give the heat a chance to get to the surface. Anyway, all of the temperature measurements I have seen in the RMH world have been surface. The surface of the barrel, the surface of the flue pipes etc. The masonry heater guys measure flue temp in the center of the flue with a probe made just for this. Often they read twice as much from the centre to the surface or more. What I have tried seems confirm that there is at least some difference, though my probe is not good at measuring gasses   It is just a spike probe I use for testing my bread (just stopped to take it out). I would have to put a big flat piece on there to get something close to reality, like a fin.

All that to say, I had been puzzled that the inner riser tube does not seem to wear out even after 15 years (according to those who have run them that long and looked) with all that heat in there. I am thinking this is because the gasses along the surface move enough slower to act as an insulting layer for the really hot gasses at the centre. I have noticed that the flame front does seem to be oval shape in mine.... not close to the pipe surface. This is why I decided the stove pipe would be OK. Though the jury is out on the burn area just yet and that is why I want a protector plate... and possibly some mass as "someone" suggests.

This is also why, when looking at the exit temp of only 250F or so I am realising the actual gas temp is probably much higher and therefore has room for more cooling.... in a mass bench/bell.

Anyway, it will not be today I get to cut the other core as my YF has volunteered me to help play Christmas music  (every note is a new chord) this afternoon. Maybe sometime this week. I am also waiting for some more pipe I have been promised

Just some thoughts on the RMH and gas flows ... probably belongs in the main RMH thread... but some of the people who read that know "everything". They just tell me I'm wrong... no thought. So far they have been wrong on a lot of things.... mass on the whole barrel, 4inch systems just to name two. I am hoping my bench gathers more heat in 4 feet than a 20foot pipe... or at least a lot more than 8 feet of pipe would. I am willing to be wrong though... what I have already works well... and if the exhaust from my bench is still hot enough, I have something to do with it 
 
Satamax Antone
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Hey Len, been runing it all day long, and it was 19c° in the workshop when i left.

Huh, daft question what does YF stand for? At first i thought you mistyped since the G is soo close, but i'm not sure.
 
                            
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yf= wife I'm guessing
 
Len Ovens
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Hoser wrote:
yf= wife I'm guessing



Ya, better than XYL... besides she is still young. And she is more than an SO. I won't tell you what she calls me, but it has more letters
 
Satamax Antone
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So, an update!

Despites working all right, i dismantled it, to know exactly what was going on, and to recover some parts for the next build.

So, Ernie, you're right, metal doesn't cope!







The metal has started flaking and delaminating. Badly inside and out. Up to the point that in the first elbow of teh burn tunel, i have the bottom which has raised may be 6cm!

Tho, the cyclonic part proved very good at protecting the heat rised which hasn't had much damage.



And this aluminised steel is realy a pos!
 
Len Ovens
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Satamax Antone wrote:So, an update!

Despites working all right, i dismantled it, to know exactly what was going on, and to recover some parts for the next build.

So, Ernie, you're right, metal doesn't cope!


Hmm Interesting. I'll see what mine looks like when I move it. If it is the same, I think I will go to clay flue for the burn tunnel/riser.
 
rw gillman
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Satamax Antone wrote:I raised the temp about four degrees yesterday. Suffering from insomnia now, so i fired it again, and it was down to 12C° so it droped 2C° in about four hours. May be i'm kind of sorted.  Otherwise i take the thing out and make it 6".


I'm very new to this hobby and want to build one of these stoves for my workshop/barn which is 30 feet long and am trying to understand if this sort of heater/rocket/fireplace might work well to warm things up sufficiently in the winter. I live in Texas which getds pretty cold and have a lot of wood on our land which can be cut for stove materials.

First question is what is meant by 4" 6" or 8" system in regards to rocket wood stoves? The size of the reburner vertical updraft heater recycler chamber width or the possibly the width of the 20-30 feet of duct tubing which will radiate the heat along after the reburner vertical updraft heater recycler chamber.

Second question - Is there a glossary of sorts for this science that might help me better understand and help to not use my own made up phrases like "reburner vertical updraft heater recycler chamber" - thanks for anything to help me talk intelligently about the science and better plan and design my system properly as a heating stove which requires the least maintenance would be perfect and much appreciated.

Final question - I noticed most of the systems shown seem to adhere to the "Jay style" burner - reburner unit. Would it not be useful to have a taller entry tube to allow more wood to be queued up or does this entry height need to be kept small to keep the air flowing down into the feed entrance?

Thank you in advance for any info!
 
Satamax Antone
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Hi RW.

Feed tube need to be kept small'ish in height to allow for presure differential between it, and the heat riser. 4, 6 8 or else, you can even talk in mm or cm. . This the diameter of the system if made round. The cross sectional surface of every componenet should be about the same. For a workshop, use big, 8 i'd say.If can be done, run your mass lenghwise the 30' And read ianto evans's book.
 
Len Ovens
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Satamax Antone wrote:Hi RW.

Feed tube need to be kept small'ish in height to allow for presure differential between it, and the heat riser. 4, 6 8 or else, you can even talk in mm or cm. . This the diameter of the system if made round. The cross sectional surface of every componenet should be about the same. For a workshop, use big, 8 i'd say.If can be done, run your mass lenghwise the 30' And read ianto evans's book.


If the feed tube is going to be taller, it needs to be vented at the bottom and the top of the feed tube needs to be sealed. If you are going to try this rw gillman, please try it outside first and make sure you are willing to deal with the differences in running that way. If you are going to do anything outside the book, you need to be willing to be an experimenter and you need to take responsibility for _any_ problems that show up.

The other way of using longer pieces is with a ring up higher to hold the fuel straight. The problem I can see with that is you have fuel in a hot place yet still outside the heater. If it starts burning, all the fumes end up in the living space.
 
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