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Permaculture Wikis - drive traffic?

 
                    
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On working together to share knowledge --

Please forgive my forwardness, but I have to ask -- why is the 2nd link on this page to an empty "Permies Wiki"? This is listed elsewhere on the Web as 'defunct' or 'dead'. Since even the definition of "permaculture" has not been filled in, I must agree. So why is this link and the empty Wiki still up? It is argued that it dilutes the information from other sites, including the one thriving Permaculture Wiki... which I will of course not name or link to out of respect for the excellent Permies forum!


On driving traffic --

I bet that if this Permies site linked to that working Permaculture Wiki (1000+ edits a week!), the cross-posting would greatly improve BOTH sites. And this site and its information deserves that kind of exposure!


Now if you'll excuse me for a moment, I'm going to go edit the Permaculture Links section on that Wiki and make the Permies forum stand out, then get on with whipping up stuff about guilds.
 
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Empty?

I click on it and I see stuff?
 
                    
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Am I wrong? The Wiki linked isn't empty, but it's not exactly a living breathing thing. Looks more like a broke-down skeleton.

The "Permies Wiki" link above goes to an empty page. It has this as its leader paragraph:

Replace this text with suitable content: Under this heading explain concisely the subject of the page. Use only facts and proven methods. You can include permaculture thinking and principles à la Mollison. How to apply them. Drawings, photos and videos if necessary. Benefits and consequences. People should come away from this section intrigued to find out more. THIS IS THE FIRST SECTION TO DEVELOP for every page...



That's just a template, which says to the reader "no info is available." Bad landing page.


Unfortunately, even further searching does not improve our view of this wiki:

* Pages/Info missing:
** From the main page "Permaculture Reference", the first five links are useless:
*** WIKI HOMEPAGE link doesn't go to a Wiki Homepage, it sends one to the forums (!)
*** ANIMALS: Partially filled in page; of the existing 10 links, only 40% have any information:
**** 4 go to partial pages
**** 1 goes to the Forums
**** 4 go to empty templates
**** 1 goes to a dead page
*** PLANTS: empty template
*** SOIL: dead page
*** WATER: one paragraph, no links, rest is template
*** STRUCTURES: 3 paragraphs, no links, rest is template

Additionally:
* Search feature broken
* No L Nav Bar navigation ability -- hierarchal only
* No categories/Tag Cloud (CATEGORIES link in L Nav is really just a Page List)
* Dead links lead to a dead page, not a new page which requests input (!)

Missing pages:
* Zones
* Holzer
* Polyface
* Guild
* Swale
* Wiki help pages:
** Categories/Tag Cloud
** "Recent Updates"
** Markup Guide
** Guidelines for Posting
** Pillars and Values
** Formatting info
** Community discussion area

* etc etc etc



If this were an active, growing, working project, that would be fine... but none of the pages I viewed seemed to have any current (30 - 60 days) updates. While some (bent/broken) bones of a Wiki are up, there is no flesh, and looks like no plans to add flesh; the ability to add flesh is hindered by the bent/broken bones.



TL ; DR Difficult user interface, nonexistant support for users, and broken functionality probably resulted in current lack of utility/traffic shunting.



So if that wiki is not "empty", it's pretty close to it; one could use "abandoned" or "defunct" and not be incorrect.
 
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P Thickens

perhaps you have the time and energy to begin feeding the Wiki so that we can see if it will survive? Paul is always pleased when someone takes a bit of the admin load off of him so that he can focus back on generating content
 
                    
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Brice Moss wrote:P Thickens

perhaps you have the time and energy to begin feeding the Wiki so that we can see if it will survive? Paul is always pleased when someone takes a bit of the admin load off of him so that he can focus back on generating content



I wish I could. The functionality of the actual program is broken -- too broken to work with. It would be like trying to reply here on the Permies forums without any QUOTE or POST REPLY functionality, and I'm soooooo not a programmer, otherwise I could help!
 
                    
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I've been thinking about this. Paul, if you like me don't have the time/knowledge to fix the current Wiki so it can be updated, what about installing a new software set? I've used the Atlassian's CONFLUENCE wiki software numerous times (it is FANTASTIC as a transparent, easy-to-use knowledge base) and I'd be very very very glad to help get its basics up and running and contribute info to it.

Oh, and it's free if you're open-source.

And they're in Australia. They used to give it out free to orgs like Permies.com... they still might. THey're a small company, you can talk directly to them any time.

http://www.atlassian.com/software/confluence/overview
 
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Can of worms.

At coderanch, we use some wiki software that has been integerated with jforum. We could install that. But I prefer the idea of evolving jforum to have wiki pages.

I think fixing the current stuff is the best option.
 
                    
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paul wheaton wrote:I think fixing the current stuff is the best option.



Better man than I, Gunga Din.
 
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yep, seems busted. edit page link didn't allow me to do anything.
 
                    
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I'm sure it'll be fixed in Paul's *COUGH* copious spare time *COUGH* .
 
paul wheaton
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I think this one might be in Andrew's court. This broke when we made the move. I think I figured out what was causing it and I sent andrew an email about it, but he was travelling at the time.

I'll check with Andrew and see if he might take a look this week.
 
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P Thickens wrote:On working together to share knowledge --

Please forgive my forwardness, but I have to ask -- why is the 2nd link on this page to an empty "Permies Wiki"? This is listed elsewhere on the Web as 'defunct' or 'dead'. Since even the definition of "permaculture" has not been filled in, I must agree. So why is this link and the empty Wiki still up? It is argued that it dilutes the information from other sites, including the one thriving Permaculture Wiki... which I will of course not name or link to out of respect for the excellent Permies forum!


On driving traffic --

I bet that if this Permies site linked to that working Permaculture Wiki (1000+ edits a week!), the cross-posting would greatly improve BOTH sites.



P, you might have missed the discussion when the request was made to set up a wiki here - Paul actually urged people to collaborate on an existing project rather than reinventing the wheel. He explicitly mentioned Appropedia, the non-profit project I work on, with an appropriate technology focus but definitely aiming to expand coverage of permaculture - the advantage being that there's a team of wiki people who stay on top of inevitable technical issues, at the expense of sleep and normal social lives.

So Paul's not shy about mentioning other sites doing good work... so I think I can safely ask - what site are you referring to? I'd love to know - I've been following the "permaculture wiki" space for a few years, and nothing has come across my radar recently. Permaculture.info is still down, sadly (or at least giving errors when I try to view it). (PM me if you're still uncomfortable sharing that info here.)

Glad to see this discussion - I'd love to see some real collaboration - good people engaging in fragmented efforts seems like a waste of potential... kind of like a flower bed of ornamentals with no thought to context or edibility .
 
                    
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Chris Watkins wrote:P, you might have missed the discussion when the request was made to set up a wiki here - Paul actually urged people to collaborate on an existing project rather than reinventing the wheel. He explicitly mentioned Appropedia, the non-profit project I work on, with an appropriate technology focus but definitely aiming to expand coverage of permaculture - the advantage being that there's a team of wiki people who stay on top of inevitable technical issues, at the expense of sleep and normal social lives.

So Paul's not shy about mentioning other sites doing good work... so I think I can safely ask - what site are you referring to? I'd love to know - I've been following the "permaculture wiki" space for a few years, and nothing has come across my radar recently. Permaculture.info is still down, sadly (or at least giving errors when I try to view it). (PM me if you're still uncomfortable sharing that info here.)

Glad to see this discussion - I'd love to see some real collaboration - good people engaging in fragmented efforts seems like a waste of potential... kind of like a flower bed of ornamentals with no thought to context or edibility .



You have it exactly right, Chris, it's Appropedia. They've actually set up a category just for Permaculture, and there's currently work being done to format specific tools just for Permaculture: INPUT and OUTPUT boxes for the different puzzle pieces. It's exciting!

Thanks for letting me know I could post this link here. http://www.appropedia.org/Category:Permaculture
 
                    
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P Thickens wrote:

Chris Watkins wrote:P, you might have missed the discussion when the request was made to set up a wiki here - Paul actually urged people to collaborate on an existing project rather than reinventing the wheel. He explicitly mentioned Appropedia, the non-profit project I work on, with an appropriate technology focus but definitely aiming to expand coverage of permaculture - the advantage being that there's a team of wiki people who stay on top of inevitable technical issues, at the expense of sleep and normal social lives.

So Paul's not shy about mentioning other sites doing good work... so I think I can safely ask - what site are you referring to? I'd love to know - I've been following the "permaculture wiki" space for a few years, and nothing has come across my radar recently. Permaculture.info is still down, sadly (or at least giving errors when I try to view it). (PM me if you're still uncomfortable sharing that info here.)

Glad to see this discussion - I'd love to see some real collaboration - good people engaging in fragmented efforts seems like a waste of potential... kind of like a flower bed of ornamentals with no thought to context or edibility .



You have it exactly right, Chris, it's Appropedia. They've actually set up a category just for Permaculture, and there's currently work being done to format specific tools just for Permaculture: INPUT and OUTPUT boxes for the different puzzle pieces. It's exciting!

Thanks for letting me know I could post this link here. http://www.appropedia.org/Category:Permaculture

I've added no few links to Paul's pages and Permies.com and corrected others.
 
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P Thickens wrote:Thanks for letting me know I could post this link here. http://www.appropedia.org/Category:Permaculture



Hehe, the forum software got confused and interpreted the : & P as a smiley . This should work: Category:Permaculture.

Thanks P - encouraging that permies are noticing Appropedia. A bunch of us have put in a heap of work (all unpaid) over the last nearly 6 years, seroweing it g from 14 articles when I first saw it to 4600+ now, and we're working on a few big projects for 2012. This is just the beginning - and it would be fantastic to have more Permies folks on board with the vision.

There's a bit of Permies-Appropedia collaboration happening already - e.g. links to Permies forum threads added to relevant Appropedia articles, and a few new articles summarizing info from this site and richsoil.com. All good to see (& a little of it I've actually done myself).
 
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I'm a big fan of appropedia. I've seen heaps of good stuff there. And there are lots of links between us and them.

I think us having our wiki working is a good idea. After all, there are things that are a fit for here, but not for appropedia - like what's the scoop on our book promo. Another good one could be a thread summary showing diverse opinions on a topic.

I have had some people write to me to say that they don't want to post stuff at appropedia but they are okay with posting stuff under my umbrella. I don't really understand this, but I like the idea of facilitating that. Some of the comments suggested that appropedia is going to be more focused on non-profit-ish aspects and stuff under my umbrella is going to be more profit-is-okay. Appropedia is going to be more of a consensus thing, and my stuff is gonna be my way.

If my umbrella helps to get information out there, then ... well .... I guess more information is better.

I like the idea that there might be a page at appropedia about farm profit that links to permies stuff, and that same permies stuff links to appropedia. I suspect that the appropedia stuff will probably be focused on an income to get by, and the permies stuff will be focused on an income that would be considered "a professional wage".
 
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Thanks Paul.

paul wheaton wrote:I have had some people write to me to say that they don't want to post stuff at appropedia but they are okay with posting stuff under my umbrella. I don't really understand this, but I like the idea of facilitating that. Some of the comments suggested that appropedia is going to be more focused on non-profit-ish aspects and stuff under my umbrella is going to be more profit-is-okay. Appropedia is going to be more of a consensus thing, and my stuff is gonna be my way.

If my umbrella helps to get information out there, then ... well .... I guess more information is better.

I like the idea that there might be a page at appropedia about farm profit that links to permies stuff, and that same permies stuff links to appropedia. I suspect that the appropedia stuff will probably be focused on an income to get by, and the permies stuff will be focused on an income that would be considered "a professional wage".



Agreed that it's good to facilitate however people want to post

I'd love to know (just for our understanding) why people don't want to post at Appropedia. I've heard misconceptions about Appropedia before (like assuming it's a big, well-funded operation - when it's actually run by a small, currently unpaid team) and I wonder if there are other assumptions made. Maybe I'll do up a little online survey on the subject.

There's no problem with profit-is-okay info at Appropedia - sure there are some radical anti-capitalists in the broader Appropedia community, but we're generally pretty agnostic about that kind of thing. Appropedia technology for Occupy Wall Street is cool, info on collective farms is cool (assuming we learn from history!) but permaculture for profit is also very cool (and closer to my own leanings, but that's incidental). Glad it has a place at Permies, but it's also more than welcome at Appropedia.
 
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My impression is that somebody might submit something and then others will not like it, so then revert it. The few people that have shared with me why they want my wiki instead of appropedia seem to think that I'll be okay with what they have to say, but their submissions to appropedia might get removed. And these folks expressed that they don't want to get into some sort of debate.

I don't remember anybody saying "and then they deleted my stuff!" I think it is more about concern of what could happen.

Frankly, I like the idea that half the threads here on permies link to matching stuff on appropedia. And vice versa.

 
                    
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paul wheaton wrote:My impression is that somebody might submit something and then others will not like it, so then revert it. The few people that have shared with me why they want my wiki instead of appropedia seem to think that I'll be okay with what they have to say, but their submissions to appropedia might get removed. And these folks expressed that they don't want to get into some sort of debate.

I don't remember anybody saying "and then they deleted my stuff!" I think it is more about concern of what could happen.

Frankly, I like the idea that half the threads here on permies link to matching stuff on appropedia. And vice versa.



So, paul, the Permies Wiki won't be editable? I can write "Permies are misguided fools" and it will stand for all eternity? Or will there be dedicated panel reviewing proposed info? Editing wikis to create a consensus approach is what makes them so useful, I can't imagine how removing that ability will help the Permies Wiki.

Also: Please note that Appropedia is not at all anti-cash: http://www.appropedia.org/Revenue
 
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paul wheaton wrote:My impression is that somebody might submit something and then others will not like it, so then revert it. The few people that have shared with me why they want my wiki instead of appropedia seem to think that I'll be okay with what they have to say, but their submissions to appropedia might get removed. And these folks expressed that they don't want to get into some sort of debate.

I don't remember anybody saying "and then they deleted my stuff!" I think it is more about concern of what could happen.



Ah, good to know. People don't need to worry much about that - I generally only delete spam, and I once deleted an article about an Aryan pride rock band (off topic, for starters). We get other content which is wildly speculative but presents itself as the-way-things-must-be, and that tends to get moved to "userspace" - i.e. an area belonging to the user who created the page, where they can work on it as they wish - and it can be moved back if it becomes suitable for Appropedia. If I see something that I believe is wrong, but reflects a common belief, I prefer to fill out the article so there's evidence and reasoning, rather than just deleting.

We have a much more tolerant and positive "wiki culture" than Wikipedia. Wikipedia has unfortunately has become very harsh. It's understandable though - most of the new articles made by new users on Wikipedia are about someone's cat or other topics of similar importance, and the admins dealing with this "firehose," as it's known, are too inundated to deal with newbies in a helpful way. (The Wikipedia community is working on problem, and many people people wish the solution would come faster.) We don't have that problem on Appropedia, yet, and when we do we'll have different priorities, and will handle it very differently.

Frankly, I like the idea that half the threads here on permies link to matching stuff on appropedia. And vice versa.



So do I.
 
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At the moment, it seems that we can't edit anything. A problem from when we moved to the new forum, the host had to be set up a different way. Andrew and I looked into it a little yesterday and then put it aside again.

All of the stuff I publish can be subjected to what I am comfortable publishing. Have I not made that clear?

Some wikis might fall under something consensus-ish, some might say they are consensus-ish and actually ruled by the nastiest person in the group with too much time on their hands. Some groups are about red things and some groups are about blue things. Some groups have a central leader where they say "that guy gets the final say".

I think the appropedia model is the way to fly. And, I'm flattered when people say "I don't wanna post there, I wanna post on your site."

 
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I find this evening that I don't seem to be able to edit the content of an older post of my own. I would like to amend it with some additional info. Is this the same bug as you were noting just above, Paul? If so, since you determined that it is an artifact of the switch to the new forum software, will this be a permanent situation or a temporary one?

Am I just missing the feature somewhere? Seems that I recall used to be a button on the margin of each of my published posts offering the option of editing prior content... wasn't there?

While I am on the topic, upon discovering this situation today, I went looking for a "Help" page or something similar: some collection of most basic instructions for the new member regarding the functionality of using this site, particularly in the sense of the site's mechanics - how to search, how to post, how to manage one's own posts, how to manage one's own profile options, etc. And I suppose ethical rules and guidelines for using the site might fall into the same page. I could not find one. Does it exist, or am I again, perhaps, overlooking the obvious? I do realize that this site is pretty simple, and many features are pretty much self-explanatory. But then "self-explanatory" is a relative term; some of us don't spend nearly as much time online as do others. For myself I can say that this is the only online forum I've ever joined, and I would benefit greatly by such a Help Page.

Please forgive if these are stupid noob questions, but I am a noob. I don't yet spend enough time on here to know everything by heart or even be sure that I am remembering correctly from my few visits of months past.

Thanks for any tips one might provide!
 
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