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Do most plants form N nodules if innoculated?  RSS feed

 
Morgan Morrigan
Posts: 1400
Location: Verde Valley, AZ.
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Looking at the nitrogen fixers, it seems that they aren't specifically growing nitrogen nodules, but forming partnerships with fungi that do it.

I just got some broad spectrum innoc , for my dead, Arizona clay/iron oxide soil, and am wondering if i should dump innoculant on everything i still have alive.

Will everything form nitro nodules if i can keep the soil moisture up?
I understand trees need the Ecto, not Endo, but wondering if i should pour this liquid gold on everything, and quit trying to find nitro fixers that can survive 110, and no rain.

http://www.beneficialbiologics.com/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&page=shop.product_details&product_id=3&textad_id=5&aff_id=16&vmcchk=1&Itemid=22

ROOT BLOOM CONTAINS:

Endomycorrhizae -
Glomus intraradices (55 prop/gm)
Glomus mosseae (55 prop/gm)
Glomus aggregatum (55 prop/gm)
Glomus etunicatum (55 prop/gm)
Glomus clarum (5.5 prop/gm)
Glomus monosporum (5.5 prop/gm)
Glomus brazilianum (5.5 prop/gm)
Glomus deserticola (5.5 prop/gm)
Gigaspora margarita (6.5 prop/gm)

Bacteria -
-Bacillus pumilis - 2,300,000 CFU/gm
-Bacillus coagulans - 2,300,000 CFU/gm
-Bacillus megaterium - 2,300,000 CFU/gm
-Bacillus licheniformis - 2,300,000 CFU/gm
-Bacillus azotoformans - 2,300,000 CFU/gm
-Bacillus thuringiensis - 2,500,000 CFU/gm
-Paenibacillus polymyxa - 2,300,000 CFU/gm
-Paenibacillus durum - 2,300,000 CFU/gm
-Azotobacter chroococcum - 2,500,000 CFU/gm
-Pseudomonas aureofaceans - 2,200,000 CFU/gm

Yeast -
-Sacchromyces cervisiae - 2,200,000 CFU/gm
 
Isaac Hill
gardener
Posts: 356
Location: Beaver County, Pennsylvania (~ zone 6)
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Yeah, it's a symbiotic relationship between the plant and bacteria though, not fungi. Only specific plants form these relationships, pretty much anything in the pea family (Fabaceae) who form noules with Rhizobia bacteria and some random plants that form relationships with the Frankia bacteria (Eleagnus and Alnus genuses of plants are the most famous.)

There are plenty of plants that grow in your climate that fix nitrogen, most famously the Acacias of the Fabaceae family.

Mycorrhizal relationships are a different sort of relationship entirely.

So no, only specific plants can form nitrogen fixing nodules.
 
Varina Lakewood
Posts: 116
Location: Colorado
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Legumes.
Peas, beans, some shrubs and trees. I think locust is one.
Your problem might be more low, erm, plant matter..., humus content in the soil + compaction.
Either way, if you add the mycorrhizae, be aware that its best done during a rainy spell, so they will thrive instead of getting killed off by chlorinated/treated tap water.
Yeah, if you can add mulch without losing it to the wind, or dig it in if you have wind issues, that would help alot.
 
Morgan Morrigan
Posts: 1400
Location: Verde Valley, AZ.
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Okay, now why is it only the pea family?

Seems like most plants can get root rot.
Is that just a case of a fungus without a partner bacteria to symbotize with it?
If my leaf mold feeds a fungus, can we figure out which bacteria the fungi will feed?

Since i read that you need fungi to break down the flavanoids in leaves, so that the bacteria can then decompose it, i have been wondering if we are just missing a couple links in the chain.

Gaia Garden said it was a fungi. oops. listed it too.
Other places say it is the bacteria that actually make the nodules, but they won't without their partner fungus.
Loaned out my Stamets book long ago too....

seems like we need some research dollars here.
 
Jordan Lowery
pollinator
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Location: zone 7
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As usual it depends. There are more plants outside the pea family that have relationships with nitrogen fixing bacteria( not fungi as stated) what you haves a common off the counter innoculant. The same species from the same manufacture labeled on a different box or bag.

It will add beneficial microbes but not local ones. I would prefer to add some good compost tea made from local compost. This will give your soil a good start.
 
Morgan Morrigan
Posts: 1400
Location: Verde Valley, AZ.
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So it appears the symbiotic fungi that work with the bacteria prob WILL pick up the necessary genes to do this if exposed to them, and transfer/tailor the bacteria to what we need.

would really rock if we could do this for the major crops, would cut the use of fertilizers by a large, but unknown amount.

Might also give them extra strength to fight of weedy competitors, if they didn't just vampire the stocks !

http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/lab-rat/2012/08/12/fungi-that-steal-genes-from-bacteria/
 
John Polk
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What makes the legumes special, is that they have the capability of taking the nitrogen from the air, and sending it to the roots, where the bacteria are throwing a block party. Few other plants have this ability.

 
Morgan Morrigan
Posts: 1400
Location: Verde Valley, AZ.
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doing it for wheat now

http://microbelog.wordpress.com/2012/08/14/getting-to-the-roots-of-the-problem/
 
Morgan Morrigan
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Location: Verde Valley, AZ.
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This is also saying that over 80% of plants have fungi that fix nitrates too....

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn22228-fungi-could-thwart-carbon-capture-efforts.html
 
Morgan Morrigan
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Location: Verde Valley, AZ.
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So other bacteria are attacking, displacing the rhizombacteria ?

The dark side of bacteria in gardens

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/09/120921111038.htm?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+sciencedaily+%28ScienceDaily%3A+Latest+Science+News%29
 
Morgan Morrigan
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Location: Verde Valley, AZ.
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good homework here for us dismayed by this, also check the n fixers from another post here.

http://www.laspilitas.com/advanced/advroots.htm
 
Marc Troyka
pollinator
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Location: East Central GA, Ultisol, Zone 8, Humid
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None of the species in the innoculant you have actually form nodules with legumes. A few fix N, but not very much. What you want for legumes is called "Rhizobia".

Interestingly, I've recently read some research that indicates that Rhizobia can live symbiotically with a wide range of plant hosts that aren't legumes, and some strains of rhizobia enhance plant growth or fight diseases. There are even reports of non-legumes (like rice and corn) forming nodules in response to Rhizobia.
 
Morgan Morrigan
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Location: Verde Valley, AZ.
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Yup, figured out the mix was missing what i needed, but got it anyway to try and put SOME life into the soil.

Seems to have worked, it is breaking down some of the wood and stems, and am getting fruiting fungi in dead beds.

Also some good info on the different colonies on the california site above.

Need to get some different VAMS going around here, then add some of the Rhizome families to help out.
 
Marc Troyka
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The mix you've got right now is pretty good. fungi.com's Mycogrow Soluble has a few (some extra gigasporums and some ectomycorhiza that trees need, and a few extra bactera) that aren't in your mix if you really want to go all out. It also has trichoderma which are fungi that will eat pathogenic fungi like fusarium. Trichoderma will also eat mushrooms that you try to culture, so that's a downside you may want to consider.
 
Paulo Bessa
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Morgan, I would spread the mix (its a very good one - will add beneficial stuff to your soil, if not existing)

But don't forget two things: first fungi and bacteria are quite sucessful in propagating, you don't need to apply much over a spot. They also reproduce mostly by dividing themselves: one bacteria is enough to generate millions if conditions are good.

Second, rain and water leaches away those microorganisms. Leaching is not the best word, better to say it transports them away to new spots. So, probably you only need to introduce them in a few spots, preferably upland, so that they water down the terrain. Or dilute the thing and spread evenly.

Do that in cooler and wetter weather (but not in frost, rather spring time), not in hot dry weather.
 
Marc Troyka
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Location: East Central GA, Ultisol, Zone 8, Humid
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Actually it's more like a race between the 'native' microbes and the inoculant, and whichever reaches the seedlings' roots first wins. It's best to package your seeds and inoculant in seedballs for that reason. Once they've claimed plenty of plant roots they can indeed reproduce themselves, but inoculant powder is a poor delivery medium to effectively introduce them. If you just spread it around the surface, they get outcompeted by the already established stuff in the soil (which includes pathogens and other parasites) and die off after a while.
 
Morgan Morrigan
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Location: Verde Valley, AZ.
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i actually bought this mix, cuz it didn't have trico.

we are in AZ, so it is hard to keep enough water in the soil for stuff to rot.

a finger thick stick will typically not decay for nearly 10 years, and that is even if you are walking on it regularly, so you can see why we need to add some life to the dirt.

the Lapalitas site above was great for figuring out the different soil micro zones, and it may help me get some areas to become more productive, by not fighting soil types.

Planted some peas in March, and they have been 6 inches high all summer. I know they don't like heat, but c'mon !!
Pretty sure it is the iron in the clay. have added calcium and sulphur to buffer, but figure it will take a winter of composting to kick in.


 
Xisca Nicolas
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We speak a lot about inoculents, but they are hard to find!
And how can they travel, as they are supposed to be kept in a fridge!

The rhizobia is what is meant for fixing N, in legumes, it has been said.
But how to get them, be sure they are alive?
And how can we grow NEW plants without them?

I did not see this mentionned, but there is not rhizobia, but rhizobii ! plural!
Each land has its own, and what's about new plants and the local rhizobia that are not acquainted?
 
Marc Troyka
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Xisca Nicolas wrote:We speak a lot about inoculents, but they are hard to find!
And how can they travel, as they are supposed to be kept in a fridge!


You pretty much have to order them online. I rarely see anything like that at a garden center, and never any good ones. I think you're thinking about probiotics (a pill you can take) that require refrigeration. Inoculants are generally in a dormant form, and can last a good long while before going bad.

Xisca Nicolas wrote:
The rhizobia is what is meant for fixing N, in legumes, it has been said.
But how to get them, be sure they are alive?
And how can we grow NEW plants without them?


You can find them online. Some kinds are specifically for one kind of legume or another, while others have a mix for many kinds.

Xisca Nicolas wrote:
I did not see this mentionned, but there is not rhizobia, but rhizobii ! plural!
Each land has its own, and what's about new plants and the local rhizobia that are not acquainted?


The singular form of "Rhizobia" is "Rhizobium", which you will rarely see spelled as such. The genus of bacteria is called "Rhizobium" or "Bradyrhizobium" in the case of soy.

Rhizobia are very specific about what plants they will form nodules with. Rhizobia for your native plants will not likely work for crops you may grow, and vise versa.


Morgan Morrigan wrote:i actually bought this mix, cuz it didn't have trico.


How come? Tricho can generally protect your plants against fungal diseases. The only thing I would worry about in that regard is that T. Viride may cause onions to rot. In your dry climate I doubt fungal disease or rotting is the biggest problem, although I plan to test it myself in this wet climate. I'll be sure to report on whether my onions rot in the ground or not.

Morgan Morrigan wrote:
Planted some peas in March, and they have been 6 inches high all summer. I know they don't like heat, but c'mon !!
Pretty sure it is the iron in the clay. have added calcium and sulphur to buffer, but figure it will take a winter of composting to kick in.


Haha peas are not a summer crop. I'm astounded that they survived at all in the dry AZ heat out of season.

I don't think it's possible that you have clay, though. You generally don't get enough rainfall that far west to weather the soil that far. Water will definitely be the limiting factor in your ability to build soil/grow stuff though. Have you considered starting with something more xeri-tolerant, like cacti?
 
Xisca Nicolas
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Well, if anyone has any clue about where to buy it on line... I asked one place, and they said that sending so far was not so good if some heat kill it, though it is dormant... I need the cowpea type I think. For also pigeon peas.
 
Marc Troyka
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This is what you want.

The bacteria can stay alive well enough for at least a year, although refrigerating them after you get them will help them last longer.
 
Xisca Nicolas
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M Troyka wrote:This is what you want.

The bacteria can stay alive well enough for at least a year, although refrigerating them after you get them will help them last longer.


Right, this is what i want!
Thanks a looooot!

"Never expose the package of inoculant to heat or direct sunlight (especially the dashboard of a truck), as this will kill the bacteria. To ensure viability, inoculant should be refrigerated."

Summer is gone... the journey is safer.

Even my mungo did not produce well so I began to think about rhizobium!
wiki says there is a Bradyrhizobium canariense, so I guess it can nodulate with our tagasaste!
 
Marc Troyka
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Maybe. Like I said, rhizobia are picky about what plants they will form nodules with. Different plants require different species, although there are many that also share.
 
Morgan Morrigan
Posts: 1400
Location: Verde Valley, AZ.
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Well, i guess there is more info out there than just a couple reports.....

fungi perfecti has a couple scholarly texts on its site. New catalog just shipped.



http://www.fungi.com/product-detail/product/mycorrhizal-symbiosis-third-edition.html
'
 
I agree. Here's the link: http://stoves2.com
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