Deep litter goats?

I have my goat pens currently set up with portable corral panels. These work wonderfully! My question is about the sheer amount of waste these little critters produce.

We have been working to create a food forest type setup on our property, which is already pretty heavily forested with doug fir, maple, various bushes, etc. My idea has been to methodically clear some of the native underbrush, trees, etc and replace them with edible varieties as we go, plot by plot. We are using the goats for the brush clearing, and they are a hardworking crew!

I understand the importance of keeping the goats clean and dry. I am wondering, though, if there's a reason NOT to simply put clean dry straw down on top of the soiled stuff, in effect, creating a layered in-place compost. I frequently clean out their shelter and put all new bedding in, but the pen outside the shelter is now about 6" deep in layers of straw, hay, manure, etc. I went to clean the pen today, and it was so wet and heavy in the under layers from recent rains, though dry on the top layers, that I could barely move shovels full. Also, I noticed that the under layers are warm to the touch, steaming, and composting quickly, perhaps better than my compost pile. Is it okay to simply continue layering clean straw on top so the goats stay dry, while allowing the under layers to compost over the winter? We intend to move the goat pen in the spring to a new area, to begin planting edible trees and shrubs where the goats have been. Will this layered goat compost be a good planting medium? Or, would it be better to shovel all of it out, put it on the compost pile, and spread it in the spring before planting? Thoughts?

I run my rabbits on deep litter and we plant straight into it with a cover of compost right from the pen. Mind you hay alone can't tackle the ammonia on it's own, you need 6 inches before the biology is at a critical mass to balance with the animals daily input. I lean towards korean natural farming in the arena of using basically molasses and whey to inoculate the base with lacto bacillus. This seems to wipe the ammonia right out and begins tilting the litter into the bokashi camp at that depth.

Hmm, interesting. Please tell me more about the korean method that you use. We also have rabbits, so I'd be interested in hearing more about how you keep them.

I'm not a goat expert, but one of the major issues with goats is worms. Deep littering will allow the worm load to build continuously, whereas removing manure will help to break up their cycles and minimize the population.

Actually, properly cultured and balanced deep litter will promote the growth and population of beneficial bugs and nematodes that prey on the parasite larvae...90% of their live is lived outside the mammalian host, so using beneficials to consume the larva is a great idea. I used deep litter for my sheep's winter quarters and found it most satisfactory.

They stayed dryer, the odor and wetness was controlled, the litter was well composted and ready for the garden in the spring and the soils under the litter were healthy, spongy and ready to accept reseeding as soon as the sheep and litter were removed from the sacrifice area. Grew quickly and thickly in to lush green clover and grass and was utilized as graze afterwards.

I say go for it....Salatin uses the same system for his cattle with good effect.

I would not worry to much about the goats I am assuming the shed has ventilation

Jay Green wrote:Actually, properly cultured and balanced deep litter will promote the growth and population of beneficial bugs and nematodes that prey on the parasite larvae

Cool, so what do you consider properly cultured and balanced? Are you inoculating with something?

If the floor of the shelter is soil, the layering of manure and carbonaceous materials on that surface will make for a good binding of nitrogen to carbon, coupled with microbe life in the soil to slowly build a well balanced deep litter. If the shelter has a wood floor, one can inoculate their deep litter with placement of healthy soil into the litter. The key is a balance of carbon to nitrogen, dry material to wet, good ventilation all around to wick away excess humidity and ammonia released. Time and the beneficial insects and nematodes will take care of the rest.

This is our experience.....

In the past we have deep littered the geese, the pigs, the sheep and the goats. We still deep litter the geese - works fine. We still 'deep' litter the pigs though they eat lots of the straw so it's no really deep litter plus they don't poop/wee in their house. It works OK for the sheep as they spend quite a lot of time outside anyway and only use their shelter when it rains really hard or is freezing. But the goats - we no longer do deep litter. Because ours spend such a lot of time in their house - sniff of rain, puff of wind, not so sunny - they do lots of mess in there. It isn't a massive barn, just a little shelter following the goat-space allocation guidelines. We found that when they were all lying down in there then the wetness would wick up onto them unless the new layer was very thick, and that very thick layer was having to be topped up every two or three days and was using a massive amount of straw. Plus the level was getting so high that it was like climbing a hill to get in. Plus, their legs were sinking into it and they started being really reluctant to go in there. So now they have slatted wooden 'beds' with a thinner layer of fresh straw on that's renewed every week (the wee goes through the slats and so does a fair bit of the poo) and I swear I can see them smiling

But different things work for different folks. It's all about what works where YOU are. Guess that's permaculture.

Hiya,

We do a seasonal deep litter for our goats. We clean out 2 or three times a year. and continuously lay straw material down, a few times a week. In the summer time, we feed cut grass from our orchard areas to the goats (because we don't want to let them inside there! but there is lots of good forage, and the other animals get greater access to forage) often, the grass they don't eat gets thrown into the barn.

As for parasites, my experience has been pretty good with this method. Perhaps it is because the deep litter is hot composting underneath the animals?

At any rate, It works pretty well for us.

Andrew

We deep litter during the winter. About twice a month, we spread some barn lime on the wet areas, and then add on more straw.
This does compost and produce some heat, and the lime dries out the parasites, keeping them down as well.
In the springtime, we clean the shelter down to bare dirt and spread a heavy amount of lime.

Lauren Dixon wrote:Hmm, interesting. Please tell me more about the korean method that you use. We also have rabbits, so I'd be interested in hearing more about how you keep them.

Lauren - Bryan McGrath of Prokashi.com has some great videos on his method of Korean Natural Farming. Go to http://www.prokashi.com/videos/ to view. By making up his 'recipes' you can enhance everything on your Homestead, I've been very pleased with my results from his advice and recomendations...

Lauren Dixon wrote:I have my goat pens currently set up with portable corral panels. These work wonderfully! My question is about the sheer amount of waste these little critters produce.

Don't think of it as waste but as valuable nutrient processing. We use deep beds in the winter for our pigs and chickens. By spring they are wonderful composting piles. Push them up a bit and wait a few months for them to become a most excellent soil amendment. This way we have been gradually turning our poor, thin, acidic mountain soil into rich fields, orchards and gardens.

Would it be a good or bad idea to do any of the following to maintain a deep litter culture?

1) allow chickens access periodically to pick out excess insect life
2) introduce Black Soldier Fly Larvae (they apparently love the non-carbon component of feces)
3) introduce red wigglers (vermiculture worms)

My reasoning is thus: chickens will clear out insect populations in the event of imbalance, and are run on pasture a few days after ruminants in some paddock shift systems; BSFL will assist in the rapid breakdown of all the litter, but focusing on the wet, brown nitrogen in the feces, and they would provide food for the chickens; and red wigglers will eat the rest of the litter, also potentially food for the chooks. I can anticipate the need to drop bedding more often, obviously, if this were implemented, but I think the soil coming out of the paddock would be far superior to the conventional deep litter. But would this defeat the purpose of deep litter, or is it good to speed the break-down of materials?

A laterally related question is whether or not bokashi is compatible with any of the previous measures.

-CK

Our chickens have full access to the bedding packs. However there is not a whole lot of insect life during the winter as it is too cold here. In other climates this would be different. Come spring the chickens do catch lots of insects there and out in the fields. Insects are their primary food source when available.

The bedding packs are rich with earthworms and red worms. These proliferate primarily in the warm months from about April through November, less so but still somewhat active in the winter since the bed packs are relatively warm. If pigs are in the area then they root out a lot of worms - a delicious treat and the chickens follow the pigs to snatch worms the pigs miss, or were about to grab.

I find that the bedding builds up about 2' per year but then composts down to about 3" or so before next winter, then again builds up two feet. I have on occasion not cleaned out the bedding pack in a shed for seven years. It gradually built up but much more slowly than one would guess from watching a single winter due to this composting action. When removed the material was extremely rich with worms and a very lovely soil amendment for our orchards and gardens.

I don't have experience with introducing soldier flies, we have sufficient natural fly populations. If there are no chickens in the area, rare, the flies to reproduce strongly. If there are chickens then there are few flies visible although they are there in reproducing in small numbers. The chickens constantly scratch the surface looking for critters.

Cheers,

-Walter Jeffries
Sugar Mountain Farm
Pastured Pigs, Sheep & Kids
in the mountains of Vermont
http://SugarMtnFarm.com/

Chris Kott wrote:Would it be a good or bad idea to do any of the following to maintain a deep litter culture?

1) allow chickens access periodically to pick out excess insect life
2) introduce Black Soldier Fly Larvae (they apparently love the non-carbon component of feces)
3) introduce red wigglers (vermiculture worms)

My reasoning is thus: chickens will clear out insect populations in the event of imbalance, and are run on pasture a few days after ruminants in some paddock shift systems; BSFL will assist in the rapid breakdown of all the litter, but focusing on the wet, brown nitrogen in the feces, and they would provide food for the chickens; and red wigglers will eat the rest of the litter, also potentially food for the chooks. I can anticipate the need to drop bedding more often, obviously, if this were implemented, but I think the soil coming out of the paddock would be far superior to the conventional deep litter. But would this defeat the purpose of deep litter, or is it good to speed the break-down of materials?

A laterally related question is whether or not bokashi is compatible with any of the previous measures.

-CK

My thoughts would be, to make up a foliar spray ratio of Stabilized LAB (lacto-bacillus) with Forest Bacteria and/or Fungi, maybe some Comfrey tea, too. Spray this over the deep litter area(s) on some kind of regular frequency. Doing so would cause a faster breakdown and avoid any negative pathology. The Stabilized LAB is the active part of the Bokashi, the deep litter becomes your 'bran'. The BSF would need to be contained, not so conducive to a deep litter run. Tho', I think, BSF are an excellent compliment to this arena, just in a different context.

I like the idea of copying nature.

Since chickens are from the jungle, it makes great sense to give them deep litter. I've had chickens in deep litter for a few years and it works wonderfully.

Since goats are from rocky mountains, I chose not to use deep litter for them. I think they prefer hard surfaces for their feet.

I use a deep litter system for my goats for their winter shelter. They spend November to late April in the Winter shelter. I have a home made round bale feeder that sits in the three sided goat shelter. The goats eat the hay off
of the round bale and the feeder keeps all but the smallest kids that are born in the spring from climbing into the round bale feeder. The goats drop quite a bit of hay and being goats, they won't touch it once they drop it. I then
go in and use a pitch fork to move the hay to the sides and back of the shelter. IF there is plenty of dropped hay and things are dry in there, I will even scoop up some of the dropped hay and feed it to the horses, cows or pigs.
I don't buy bedding or add bedding for the goats. Before I put in a round bale, I peel the old nasty outer layer off and if the goat shelter needs it, they get that for more bedding or I use it to bed the pigs. The hay keeps building up in
there all winter and spring until it is nearly a foot deep in the spring. After I rotated the goats out onto pasture in the rotational grazing system, I will wait a couple months and then remove the deep litter and put it in a pile next to old pile.
I periodically remove nice soft stuff that the chickens scratch up and use it in the garden beds. The goats like to sun themselves on the big piles of old bedding and the kids like to play on them. The chickens get
lots of worms and bugs from around the edge of the deep litter all winter and they work the big piles too.

This year, I am hoping to rotate the pigs in there to loosen the deep litter up by throwing in some corn for them to root around for so it is easier for me to scoop everything out with the tractor.

I will be honest, Boer goats didn't do as well as they hated the wet and the snow;. The dairy breeds and my new Kiko goats will go out and graze in the rain and snow so I am going to switch to all Kiko, Kiko crosses and
a few dairy goats for milk. I sell a crop of whethers and excess doelings each fall to bring in money for hay and feed. The kiko and dairy goats seem to have kids easier and care for them better, I did not need goat coats or
heat mats this year to get kids through the cold nights. Most of the time they were too hot and would not sleep on the heat mats. Makes a big difference in time input

The goat shed is on the ground. The bedding is full of worms on the egdes when I remove it with the tractor. I find big balls of red wrigglers in there that moved in on their own.

I think deep bedding for goats can work, but it might not work for everyone in every situation. I am in North Central Ohio. We get quite a bit of rain. Cold damp winters and very humid spring and summers.

good luck,

Bonnie

  I have a home made round bale feeder that sits in the three sided goat shelter.  The goats eat the hay off
of the round bale and the feeder keeps all but the smallest kids that are born in the spring from climbing into the round bale feeder.


Bonnie. I know this thread is really old but if you see this could you post a picture of your feeder. I'm looking for something for my new goats. Your feeder sounds perfect.

Thanks.

Hi Patricia, had to go take some pictures. I am still using the round bale feeders but I no longer keep them in the shelter with the goats. I had to move them outside of the shelter, well shelters now. I have a lot more goats  We usually have 40 to 60 kids a year now.  So we have two shelters in our winter pasture one is moveable on skids the other is a 3 sided pole building.  I did take pictures and i hope you can see them okay. I may also include pictures of my goat feeders.  I still use the deep liter method for the winter.  The pig thing didn't work out. The pigs are in their area.  I take the manure to the pigs now with my tractor.  So I have two bale feeders now. They are outside standalone feeders, one of them is the original bale feeder I mentioned before but I added a roof. I put a roof on the second round bale feeder too.  The bale sits on a pedestal of pallets that i get for free where I pick up the spent brewers grains that i feed to my goats, chickens, pigs, horses and steers.  I build sides that are hinged on all for sides of the feeder although I probably only needed to hinge one side. The sides have slats that are about 5 to 6 inches a part vertically. It may not look like it but each pedestal is 5 to six pallets tall. The goats drop that much hay around them. I still manage to bed dropped hay in the shelters and throw some in the pigpen which is alongside the winter goat pasture.  I have chickens running in there too.  I learned the hard way to put the slats vertically instead of horizontal. The round bale catches on horizontal slats and falls out the vertical slats let the hay fall over and down when I have to push it over with the pitchfork as the goats eat the sides. i push the top off in about 4 inch sections and let it slide down the side of the slats.  I peel the bad stuff off the bale before I put it in the bale feeder. The goats can work their way through the bad stuff like  horses and cows can.  I peel the bales inside the three sided pole shelter and use it for bedding.  The goats love it.  They eat as much of it as they can before they poo and pee all over it.  I am still using rotational grazing when things are growing. Works great and still have topped out on the amount of goats we can graze. Skiddable shelters in each pasture so the manure is not building up in one spot. Horses and cows follow the goats to help reduce parasites.  

I forgot, I also added the pictures of our goat feeders. We make the actual feeder portion out of corners of a liqui-tote. We get four feeder from each tote and an extra piece that is square and about 18 inches high that I use to make raised beds for my garden.  We put the spent brewers grains in the feeders for the goats. i originally made the walls that support those feeders from pallets, but they were rotting out so we went ahead and replaced it with pressure treated lumber. I have fiber glass grating around the base of the feeders to keep the goats out of the mud. I just put those in this fall. I hope I can lift the grates up and clean out the manure and compost it.    I did not use any pressure treated lumber for the pallet goat feeders. I really didn't expect them to last this long.  If you didn't have pallets, you could build a pedestal out of other lumber.  It was great when I could keep the round bale feeders in the goat shelters because i didn't have to haul the dropped  hay as far to spread it as bedding.  That deep litter gets warm, never freezes. Some of the goats sleep beside the hay feeders if it isn't doing the sideways rain or snow thing.  anyhow, i hope this helps and I will be glad to answer questions if you have any.

I have been deep littering my goats for several years now.

I am resting from cleaning out last winter’s bedding.  It’s at least a foot thick, more in some places.  It is sodden, and reeks of ammonia.  I have composted the deep litter in the past, and it makes great stuff.

This year I am using a small skid steer tractor, formerly I have forked it by hand , over a several month period.  I thought the mini skid steer would make this task “easy”, but no such luck.  I still had to hand fork the first half of the material.

I wonder how others accomplish the actual removal of the year’s litter.

Thelka,  I also wonder if there's some trick to cleaning out the barn.  If someone invented a method to save our back (other than heavy equipment) I'd buy that booklet.

I'm in Alaska where my critters all live in the barn on deep litter Nov-Apr/May.

My poultry pens are a different story than my sheep pens.  The sheep litter is way more densely compacted after months of living on top of it.  I haven't tried turning my chickens into my sheep pen for cleanup, I imagine they wouldn't work all the way 2ft down to soil...

We remove all the compacted manure/hay mixture each summer manually with turning forks (pitchfork tines are too fine) and make a glorious compost pile, often adding lots more carbon as we build the pile because its very concentrated stuff.   I do not recommend folks put the winter manure-filled bedding directly into garden beds that will produce food in the next 4-6 months, this is a major pathogen no-no, either age the manure for a safe amount of time, make an aerobic compost heap with it, or add it directly to garden beds that will be growing non-food (ornamental or cover crops).

As far as parasites, holistic animal care teacher us that if you are seeing parasite problems in your animals you should think VERY seriously about their nutrition, stress and genetics (cull until your group is parasite resistant), or consider assisting them with plant medicine (look into Barberry root powder to top their feed during bad times).  A healthy, hardy animal should be able to resist some amount of parasite pressure with its own immune system.  Yes rotating housing will also tip the parasite balance.  

Anyone try a BCS attachment to get the manure out... snow blower???

I either use my tractor with the front loader and I have to clean out the edges by hand as I can't get close enough with the bucket on my tractor to get right up by the edges of the permanent structure.  If I have the extra money, I will rent a skid steer, but I also rent the manure forks for the skid steer. The manure forks make short work of the job. I regular bucket on a skid steer won't do the job. And a skid steer on tracks works much better than one that has wheels. I got the one with wheels stuck multiple times and so did my husband. Luckily we were able to use our tractor to pull the skid steer out. I never got the skid steer that was on tracks stuck!  

I have two shelters in my winter pasture. One is a traditional pole building that is a three sided shed.  That building is hard to clean out.  I have a shelter on skids that is about 10 by 10. I just pick up and end with my tractor and move it. Then I scape away the manure with the bucket on my tractor. I either use the bucket on my tractor with the hay forks on it to move the shelter or I put a chain on it attached to the blade on my 3 point hitch so it lifts a little and then I drag it away.  

You have to ask at a rental place if they have manure forks they won't automatically know that you need them.  

Thanks Bonnie!  I never heard of a manure fork for a skid steer, but I imagined such a tool, attachment.

If I had had that, I would have completed the job in no time, accomplished much more, and not be aching this morning.