• Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic
permaculture forums growies critters building homesteading energy monies kitchen purity ungarbage community wilderness fiber arts art permaculture artisans regional education skip experiences global resources cider press projects digital market permies.com pie forums private forums all forums
this forum made possible by our volunteer staff, including ...
master stewards:
  • Carla Burke
  • John F Dean
  • Nancy Reading
  • r ranson
  • Jay Angler
  • Pearl Sutton
stewards:
  • Leigh Tate
  • paul wheaton
  • Nicole Alderman
master gardeners:
  • Timothy Norton
  • Christopher Weeks
gardeners:
  • Saana Jalimauchi
  • Jeremy VanGelder
  • Ulla Bisgaard

Very interesting scouring calf fix.

 
Posts: 84
36
  • Likes 17
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

I raise cross bred, dual purpose dairy/meat cows. It was Cosmo's first calf. Of course she waited for the very last warm day, to calve in the late afternoon. Baby was stuck, I had to pull him. Not my first "rodeo" but certainly the most intense. A big healthy polled (hornless) bull calf, up, nursed and all seemed well. Too cold to leave him in the barn over night, Mom would not stop licking him. I named him Plato Domino. Plato spent his first two nights sleeping on a blanket next to the wood stove, and out with mom during the day. The third day, as the colostrum slowed, he started getting sick. Plato was still sucking strong but did not seem to be able to digest the milk. His mom was obsessed with licking his tummy. He had trouble maintaining body temperature and was severely dehydrated. I kept him warm, made a "super suit" and kept up his fluids. No matter what I did to stop the projectile scours, I could only slow it down. The diarrhea was so acidic it scalded all the hair off his hind end and most of his tail. By day 6 I was afraid I was going to loose him. Then I started paying closer attention to what he was looking for. Snow covered all of the coral except a tiny patch at the base of a shed, South side. Here he was gulping down mud. To "fix" what was wrong, I had to delve into cheese making. Although calves have 4 stomachs, neonates only use the 4th to digest milk. The calf digestion starts in the saliva...MUST HAVE LIPASE!
Penicillium Camemberti is a mould that is found in soils, it is the starting point for lipase in the saliva. Hale Mary! I had Lipase powder on hand for cheese. I cleared out any of Plato's opportunistic bad gut issues with 10 drops of Grape Fruit Seed Extract in 1/4 cup water, followed in 30 minutes with 1/4 cup food grade Diatomaceous Earth in as much water, (to bind-up all of the die-off to avoid cytokine storm issues....just in case!) Then I started giving Plato a pinch of Lipase powder at the start of nursing. Just getting a finger wet with his saliva, coating it with Lipase and wiping it on the end of his nose (3 wipes per pinch of lipase), where he could lick it off. The first time I did this Plato went crazy with joy, running bucking and rubbing his head on me. I took that as a "Thank you!" Two pinches of Lipase a day for 10 days. Plato thrives. My thinking is that if penicillium camenberti (or variation thereof) lives in soil, spores waft onto cow udders, get ingested by nursing calves. Forms lipase in the saliva, saliva mixes with milk to the 4th tummy where digestive enzymes coagulate milk working with stomach acid, forming Chymosin and Pepsin. I am ordering more Lipase Powder! I also found that fresh garlic is high in Lipase, may work too.
 
gardener
Posts: 859
Location: N.E.Ohio 5b6a
591
food preservation homestead ungarbage
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Hi Jackie.  I really like your ideas here.  We have only had scours when the mother rejects the calf.  Of course it is muddy here for about 9 months out of the year.  We have always added a little apple cider vinegar to the milk for the first 2 weeks.  We have found that only vinegar with the mother in it works well.  I will try the garlic too if we have troubles next time.  We have lots of garlic.
 
jackie woolston
Posts: 84
36
  • Likes 5
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I tried fresh smashed garlic early on with Plato...it did slow down the scours, but it was before I had used the Grapefruit seed extract/DE, so the beneficial effects seemed short lived. I think if I had cleared the potential pathogen load first, the garlic may have done the trick. Garlic has lipase, amalase and protease. I did do a recolonization with probiotics as well. Like the vinegar idea too! For spring and summer scours I use "curly dock". It is claimed to be toxic to cattle due to oxalic acid...but only if a very large amount is eaten. I use fresh leaves, crushed up to a near paste, a ball about the size of half a ping pong ball, poke it in their "pie-hole". I have had limp, unresponsive sick calves with fluids running out as fast as you can pour them in, bounce back in minutes.
 
pollinator
Posts: 1550
Location: Zone 6b
209
goat forest garden foraging chicken writing wood heat
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
What kind of lipase powder?  I have two scouring calves (and just lost one, possibly to pneumonia -- these were sale barn calves, bounced from pillar to post in their very short lives, so we knew we were taking a risk).  We've tried just about everything we can think of, just started Corid today (no, I'm not trying to be organic, just want to save their lives).  I have DE, will have to order lipase powder, but it shouldn't take too long to get here.  Don't know if I can find it locally.  The scours aren't as bad as what you describe your calf having, and the two heifers seem to be holding their own, but I'd like to do better than that.  

 
jackie woolston
Posts: 84
36
  • Likes 3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Hi Kathleen, I just happened to have some lipase powder from a cheese making supplier. If you have fresh garlic on hand, crush up a couple cloves...I find garlic is quite medicinal as well, and high in lipase too....so it might have added impact. When I gave garlic to Plato, I was surprised that he actually seemed to like it. Garlic maybe easier to come by, pretty much any store. If these are "store bought" babies...they are probably pretty stressed as well. You can mix the DE into the bottle milk . Pneumonia can be nasty this time of year. Hydration : At least a cup of water with: 1/4  teaspoon salt, potassium chloride 1/8th teaspoon (always go easy on the potassium...too much can stop the heart), and a couple Tablespoons of sugar couple times a day...more plain water too, dehydration is a major calf killer. Mama cows always lick/rub  calf tummies to help relieve gas pains. Scouring calves are nasty to bring inside to keep calves from chilling...been there, done that , had nasty mess to clean up. If you don't have calf coats, (got Plato one from Valley Vet on-line) a little hay bale shelter can be good at night. To really clean up the gut and pneumonia issue: Wisdom of the Ages product (online): ALC aka Grapefruit Seed Extract is a very good at restoring health...I believe it kills off 900 different pathogens, including a hundred fungal forms and 26 bacteria that cause tooth decay, 10 drops in 1/4 cup water for baby calves....can add sugar to help taste. After the Grape fruit Seed Extract...wait 30 minutes to do 1/4 cup of DE in 1/4 cup water. I find the best way to get things down a calf is to slurp the fluids and or slurries up into a large syringe (no needle, just the syringe/plunger, I cut the needle base holder off with a serrated knife to get better flow), then slowly squirt down their throat. Go slow and make sure they are swallowing. I have a very disgusting dog helper, Hank...he is a calf pooper cleaner upper. Gag! but helpful. Needless to say, "No kisses for or from Hank!"
Good luck!
Jackie












 
gardener
Posts: 3066
Location: Western Slope Colorado.
601
4
goat dog food preservation medical herbs solar greening the desert
  • Likes 3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I read where Jackie posted the lipase cure on a different thread.  It’s genius!  I’ve been thinking about it a lot.  I already have lipase powder for cheese making.  Never had a baby goat scour.  Lucky me, maybe goats are less prone than calves.

If anyone is in search of lipase , there are several online cheese making suppliers, if you don’t have a local one.  And when you have found a cheese making supplier, then when you order the lipase, you can also order some cheese cultures, maybe Penicillium camemberti.  Cheesemaking suppliers also sell rennet, an enzyme that coagulates milk.  Walcoren is a good brand of rennet (from calf stomach.)  If you’re going to try rennet, I would not put it in the same bottle as the milk without testing first.  Rennet and acid coagulate milk.  The main question is, will the milk with rennet in it stay liquid long enough For the calf to drink it.
 
Kathleen Sanderson
pollinator
Posts: 1550
Location: Zone 6b
209
goat forest garden foraging chicken writing wood heat
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

jackie woolston wrote:Hi Kathleen, I just happened to have some lipase powder from a cheese making supplier. If you have fresh garlic on hand, crush up a couple cloves...I find garlic is quite medicinal as well, and high in lipase too....so it might have added impact. When I gave garlic to Plato, I was surprised that he actually seemed to like it. Garlic maybe easier to come by, pretty much any store. If these are "store bought" babies...they are probably pretty stressed as well. You can mix the DE into the bottle milk . Pneumonia can be nasty this time of year. Hydration : At least a cup of water with: 1/4  teaspoon salt, potassium chloride 1/8th teaspoon (always go easy on the potassium...too much can stop the heart), and a couple Tablespoons of sugar couple times a day...more plain water too, dehydration is a major calf killer. Mama cows always lick/rub  calf tummies to help relieve gas pains. Scouring calves are nasty to bring inside to keep calves from chilling...been there, done that , had nasty mess to clean up. If you don't have calf coats, (got Plato one from Valley Vet on-line) a little hay bale shelter can be good at night. To really clean up the gut and pneumonia issue: Wisdom of the Ages product (online): ALC aka Grapefruit Seed Extract is a very good at restoring health...I believe it kills off 900 different pathogens, including a hundred fungal forms and 26 bacteria that cause tooth decay, 10 drops in 1/4 cup water for baby calves....can add sugar to help taste. After the Grape fruit Seed Extract...wait 30 minutes to do 1/4 cup of DE in 1/4 cup water. I find the best way to get things down a calf is to slurp the fluids and or slurries up into a large syringe (no needle, just the syringe/plunger, I cut the needle base holder off with a serrated knife to get better flow), then slowly squirt down their throat. Go slow and make sure they are swallowing. I have a very disgusting dog helper, Hank...he is a calf pooper cleaner upper. Gag! but helpful. Needless to say, "No kisses for or from Hank!"
Good luck!
Jackie  



Thanks!  I've been giving them electrolytes with a little molasses added.  They've had two different scours medications, and are taking the 'pink stuff' (gallon bottle is almost half gone), which between them have helped somewhat.  The Jersey heifer is wearing a foal coat, the Angus/Jersey seems to be handling temperatures fine.  I've raised a couple of Jersey calves before, and my friend has raised many, though it's been a few years for both of us.  (Both calves are at my place for now, but one is hers.)  Glad to have some new ideas on how to treat this stuff, though I do think the Corid (for coccidiosis) is helping.

I have a disgusting dog helper, too -- my livestock guardian dog, Maggie!  Glad to know she isn't the only one who thinks calf scours are tasty!  

It's been a rough, rough week -- not only dealing with the calves and losing one of them, but we just lost Maggie's whole litter of eleven beautiful half-Karakachan pups to distemper.  Vet said that skunks can have it, and that may be how they got it.  I had the vaccine ready to give them, but they weren't quite old enough to vaccinate, just 5 weeks when we started seeing symptoms.  Symptoms were atypical, the vet said, and she hadn't seen distemper in her office for 15 years -- we took several of the pups in, and she couldn't save them, either.  Though I don't know if there's much you *can* do with pups that have distemper.  But we tried.  Now we are exhausted and heart-broken, and broke, LOL!  Can't afford another vet bill for these calves right now.  Anyone who is thinking of raising a litter of LGD pups (which are normally raised out near the livestock), make sure you have a way to keep wild critters far away from the puppies until they are safely vaccinated.  Electric net fencing should work -- I have some, we just didn't think of using it that way.  
 
jackie woolston
Posts: 84
36
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Morning Thekla, You are spot on with the Penicillium Camenberti...from what I could dig up on digestion of neonate calves...P. Camenberti (or form there of) is the initiator of Lipase in calf saliva. I too thought that RENNET might work UNTIL I looked closer at coagulation in calf tummies. Babies do not seem to have digestive function in the first 3 tummies. In my wee brain that was a red flag on the rennet. Putting potentially coagulated milk too soon in the process?? Rennet is the job of the 4th tummy. What I reasoned the digestive need was for Lipase, to aid in the entire enzyme and such cascade with the target being Chymosin and shortly thereafter Pepsin in the natural order of calf digestion. Years past I saved a bunch of bloating yearling steers with whole milk yogurt. I tried a few slogs of yogurt on Plato, but stopped because the poop from that was a pile of yogurt with oil on top and a tinge of blood followed by projectile watery scours. After that I hugged his neck, apologized for my ignorance and cried. Then I put on my big girl panties and researched cheese making and neonate calf digestion. I tried the Lipase. It was magic!...but the magic wore off. Scours came back in a couple days...Head scratcher? I knew I was on the right track but silly me...I had not CLEARED OUT ANY OPPORTUNISTIC bad gut pathogens. Plato was a trooper, he hung in there til I got it right.
1.) electrolytes and hydration
2.) keep em warm
3.) clear out the bad guys in the gut, THE only thing I have ever come across that does this is GRAPEFRUIT SEED EXTRACT, 10 drops for a baby calf diluted in a 1/4 cup water.
FOLLOWED IN 30 MINUTES with FOOD GRADE DIATOMACEOUS EARTH. 1/4 cup of DE in
water
4.) start the Lipase! 2 to 3 PINCHES  a day for several days. wet a finger in calf saliva, touch to the little pile of lipase powder, wipe on nose for licking or inside cheek RIGHT BEFORE FEEDING OR DURING.
5.) add PROBIOTICS to recolonize the gut. (Sorry, I think I omitted this in the first post) I use a powder from PROBIUS give it every day (1 little scoop) starting same time as Lipase , continue  until you see stabilization in poopers, perk and ears.

PLEASE NOTE*Not all scours are from the same issue. That is why the clearing with the GRAPEFRUIT SEED EXTRACT AND FOLLOWED BY THE FOOD GRADE DE IS CRITICAL. DE absorbs the die-off and prevents cytokine storm, which can be deadly in it's own right.
I have been saving creatures my whole life and I am still learning "shit" literally and figuratively! Poop has it's own language in consistency, color, smell etc.
 
Thekla McDaniels
gardener
Posts: 3066
Location: Western Slope Colorado.
601
4
goat dog food preservation medical herbs solar greening the desert
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Thanks for the clarification, Jackie!  It’s plain to see you have a far better understanding of ruminant digestion than I ever will!

So, does grapefruit seed extract have a long shelf life?  And what is your opinion on whether the lipase cure would be effective in goats?  When I think about one of my darling kids with scours, I get a much better picture of the heartbreak of scours.  At that point, I can imagine being ready to try anything with the remotest possibility of helping.  If grapefruit seed extract will still be effective after a few years, I am thinking maybe we should get some now.


 
jackie woolston
Posts: 84
36
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Hi Thekla,
Grapefruit seed extract seems to keep for a very very long time, even in freezing conditions. We have some that is around 10 years old and still works like magic. I don't know if all brands are created equal?? We get ours from Wisdom of the Ages (on-line), we know the people behind this company and the chemistry of their formulations. My partner and mentor is a PhD Chemist/bio-chemist/endocrinoligist/toxicoligist/nutritionist/ecologist. Who was thrown out of The School of Medicine and sued all the way to the Supreme Court for curing cancer using the immune system. I am a scrappy weasel, student of behavior and "between the dots, thread puller". A watcher.

We have fought the BLM/O&G lease sales in our watershed...they cut and ran! We used geology, chemical reactions initiated in strata by epi-thermal neutron well logging and the truth. Regional head of BLM contacted us and apologized, said "You are right about the geology".

Uncovering an amazing trail of destruction in our mountain edge local climates and bio-diversity and impacts on rumen  fertility due to increases in NOx dry deposition. Linked to increasing visible "contrails" and Stratospheric Ozone loss/high levels of UV etc...current threat to Van Allen Belts and a growing ozone hole over the Equator.

I love goats! Had a baby mini once that was house trained by my bulldog. Clovis Joe the Sporting Goat, his name. Clovis for short.
 
jackie woolston
Posts: 84
36
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Thekla, sorry, I missed your goat question...If I had a sick goat, Grapefruit seed extract would be my first go to...You can put it in chicken water...we know it does away with "past" avian flus. H1N1 variety, may be effective on the new strain as well. Just to clarify, this ia a human product...any time we get a sniffle, upset stomach, food poisoning, soar throat, congestion, cough etc...or have been around not so well people, we take this. It can stop flu dead in it's track in 30 minutes. Best to do the 30 minute follow-up with the food grade DE...cytokine storm can be a very nasty thing. We even use a few drops on the Grapefruit seed extract on a wet toothbrush to stop/prevent tooth decay. I put it on owies...they heal up almost immediately. I don't think I would ever use it full strength in eyes, ears or other mucosal places. We keep a good bit on hand to give to neighbors in need. I would definitely recommend getting some of this  for personal and animal uses. It is amazing! ...and I am not easily impressed!
 
jackie woolston
Posts: 84
36
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Dearest Kathleen,
I am so sorry for Maggie's and your loss of the litter. Time of Sorrows.
The Cordid (spelling?) for the calves can be helpful, re-homed babies of dubious origins? Hard to know what the little buggers were exposed to. Vets can be a good thing albeit costly. We have a "local" large animal vet. Good guy, a cow man for sure. But his range is huge and it impacts his availability. Showing up 3 days after an emergency is usually too late. So, do my best. I used to live in Ouray CO. Little box canyon mountain town, very beautiful. There was no vet to be had. Some how folks found out that I at least would throw the kitchen sink at trying to save critters. The most memorable incidents were often in the middle of the night. Loud banging on the door, 9 mostly dead mostly frozen doberman puppies. Hysterical owner. Only thing I could think of was to fill a sink with cold water, add pups, keep their noses above the water and slowly add warm water. Hypothermia is very interesting, suspended animation! Pups thawed and all were fine. Seems mama doggie gave birth out in the yard in the blizzard, puppies scattered all around in the snow. This girl drove 10 miles in the blizzard in the middle of the night to find me?  Another banging in the night, sobbing young gal with a very swollen 8 week old chocolate lab pup. Looked like she had been sucking on an air hose?? We put her on the dining room table and all be darn if she didn't puke up SMERFS, bright blue goo everywhere! Head scratcher! I asked owner what on earth that pup could have gotten into? Turns out, they had been at a local brewery playing pool and there "used to be" a box of pool chalk nubbins in the corner...I say "used to be"...because it was pretty obvious that pup in question had eaten perhaps all of the chalks. That explained the pile of steamy SMERF goo. Problem was an allergic reaction to the "Smerfs". Gave the pup a Benadryl...inflammation went down, pup was good to go. Another gal told me that her daughter's kitten had stopped eating, was drinking lots of water and had blood coming out her nose. I asked her if she has seen any "slow mice"? Had to explain "slow mice"...these are mice that are bleeding internally due to poison/decon. Before they die, they wander around looking for water...slowly. Adult cats as a rule won't eat a "slow mouse"...but kittens obviously don't get that memo, and will eat sad mousy. Sad mousy shares the poison. I keep vitamin K on hand in my vet box. Gave the kitten a K. Bleeding stopped, kitty fine and well. Gal got rid of her mouse poison. It is so heart wrenching to loose babies! It is the good steward in us.
When I was a kid I asked a priest if dogs went to Heaven, he said, "No child, only people go to Heaven, dogs and all other animals don't have Souls." As I grew up I studied the Bible looking for clues on this statement of his. My conclusion is that In the Beginning there was the WORD OF GOD...Hmm, God "spoke" and creatures were created? HMM? Man came from where? God spit on the dirt?? HMM ? I wrote a poem years ago for a gal who lost her best friend doggie, can't remember the entire thing 'cept this opening line..."They have no Souls, they have no choice, but to return to God, the Echo of His voice!
Sorry for your loss!
 
Kathleen Sanderson
pollinator
Posts: 1550
Location: Zone 6b
209
goat forest garden foraging chicken writing wood heat
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I love that line of poetry!  And I think there is a lot of truth to that.  The Bible says that even a sparrow doesn't fall to the ground without the Father knowing about it.  Animals are part of His Creation, and He loves them, too, I believe.  Some of the beings in Heaven who always stand before His face are described as having the face of an ox, a lion, and an eagle, with the fourth face (what a strange creature it seems to us!) being that of a man.  There are some theological meanings to those particular animals, but I do believe that it also means that God's eyes are on the animals as well as His human creatures.

My friend who owned the father of the lost puppies has already found us a couple of other pups; these are almost purebred Anatolian.  They are staying at her place for several weeks, until they are fully vaccinated, and she's putting up her electronet fence to keep wildlife away from them.  The calves are to raise with the puppies, so they'll bond to cattle, though I also have goats and poultry.

Sounds like you are an old-fashioned 'medicine' woman!  Every community needs at least one of those.  Especially since it's getting harder and harder to get the usual meds at the feed stores -- a prescription from a vet is required for a lot of things now.  Makes life a lot harder.

 
jackie woolston
Posts: 84
36
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Dearest Thekla! I must have whacked my head too many times as a child! Yes, if I had a baby goat, I would do the same as for the calves...only maybe 3-5 drops of the Grapefruit seed extract...smaller critter...and just a tablespoon of DE. I would imagine that kid digestion also depends on Lipase...tiniest of pinches.
 
Kathleen Sanderson
pollinator
Posts: 1550
Location: Zone 6b
209
goat forest garden foraging chicken writing wood heat
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Oh, I forgot to mention -- my friend had some supplement capsules on hand that have lipase in them, among other things.  Both calves have had one, and I'll give another at each feeding until they are completely better.  They are still scouring, but it's starting to look better.  My friend also thinks she may be able to dig up some garlic, though it's not the right season for it.  Neither of us has grapefruit seed extract on hand, but that's going on the list for the next trip to town.

 
jackie woolston
Posts: 84
36
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Kathleen, My father used to tell me that if I had been born a hundred years ago, they would have burnt me at the stake!
 
Kathleen Sanderson
pollinator
Posts: 1550
Location: Zone 6b
209
goat forest garden foraging chicken writing wood heat
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
LOL!  I don't think they were still burning people at the stake one hundred years ago, maybe two or three hundred years ago in some places, though.  People get some really dumb notions in their heads sometimes, don't they?  And then it can take generations to get them out again.

I've raised a lot of goat kids on bottles -- have had goats most of the last forty years.  But I've only raised a couple of calves, so I'm taking notes on all of this in case we decide to try it again sometime.
 
Are you okay? You look a little big. Maybe this tiny ad will help:
We need your help - Permies server fundraiser
https://permies.com/wiki/260600/Permies-server-fundraiser
reply
    Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic