• Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic
permaculture forums growies critters building homesteading energy monies kitchen purity ungarbage community wilderness fiber arts art permaculture artisans regional education skip experiences global resources cider press projects digital market permies.com pie forums private forums all forums
this forum made possible by our volunteer staff, including ...
master stewards:
  • Nancy Reading
  • Carla Burke
  • r ranson
  • John F Dean
  • paul wheaton
  • Pearl Sutton
stewards:
  • Jay Angler
  • Liv Smith
  • Leigh Tate
master gardeners:
  • Christopher Weeks
  • Timothy Norton
gardeners:
  • thomas rubino
  • Jeremy VanGelder
  • Maieshe Ljin

Is it possible to use a dethatcher/scarifier to terminate cover crops?

 
pollinator
Posts: 89
Location: Southeast Oklahoma - Zone 7B/8A, 50"+ annual precipitation
44
kids bee woodworking
  • Likes 4
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
As I've been looking into cover cropping, obviously one of the details to think about is what to do with them on the other end of their growing cycle.  If I'm wanting to plant something else into that plot, then letting them go to seed is generally going to be counterproductive (I guess that depends on what it is too somewhat - but let's just say it is for now).  

So if it is something that isn't going to winterkill, then I need to have a plan to terminate it. Some cover crops I can get away with just crimping, but not all...


The most obvious answer for the others seems like mowing them down - ideally with a flail mower, which I don't have currently but have spent some time looking into them because I think I'd like to eventually use one.  

But then somewhere in my journey down this rabbit hole, I came across a guy on YouTube (I think it was the "No-Till Growers" YouTube channel) who uses something called a "power harrow" (his is a walk behind unit) to terminate his cover crops.  It basically chops them up a bit and starts mixing them into the very top layer of the soil.

Meanwhile, my wife asked me if I wanted to move forward this fall with the plan we'd looked into a couple of years ago of using a dethatcher on our lawn to open it up for easier seed-to-soil contact and then over-seeding it with clover.  And that question got me thinking...

I started looking at some of the walk behind dethatchers, which often come with a more aggressive scarifier blade, and thinking about how similar they are mechanically to that guy's "power harrow."


I haven't been able to find details of anyone who has done this - probably because tearing up all the living plantlife and tossing it around with the top half-inch of soil is pretty much the exact opposite of why most people are buying these machines let alone their marketed purpose.  

But let's say I took one of those machines, put on the scarifier blade, and went nuts with it in my backyard where many of the weeds are taller than I am (they're at least 7 feet tall in places), what would likely happen?  Or better yet, lets say I planted some cover crops and pulled that thing back out when it was time to terminate them. Do you imagine I'd find success, or is it just going to get bound up somehow?

It generally makes sense in my head, but I've never used a dethatcher or scarifier or done cover cropping or any of this... so really curious to hear people's thoughts.
 
John Warren
pollinator
Posts: 89
Location: Southeast Oklahoma - Zone 7B/8A, 50"+ annual precipitation
44
kids bee woodworking
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Well, I found what I thought looked like a pretty good price on one with a 13 amp motor and what looks like a fairly aggressive scarifying blade. So I went ahead and ordered it along with a 12awg 100ft extension cord (felt like I found a really good deal there too). Once those get here, I'll try it out - first on just some shorter grass and my stubbornly compacted soil, and assuming it passes that test I'll (gradually?) work my way towards the forest of weeds in the backyard that gets taller than I am and see how it does there.

Then the next phases of testing would be to see:

How much of a difference it made with seed to soil contact and the germination of seeds broadcast after using it.

How well it works doing the same thing with an actual, intentional, cover crop vs just the spontaneously growing weeds.

How fast/slow it is to use?

How effective it is at actually terminating crops which may be harder to kill?

Probably lots of other potential observations to make if the experiment actually gets that far...

---

In the back of my mind, I also keep wondering if it would be possible to put larger wheels on one of these things to raise it higher off the ground and then modify the cylinder insert that is used as a scarifying blade to add flail blades and turn it into a walk behind flail mower... but that is probably a question for a different topic in a different sub forum on a different day lol...
 
master pollinator
Posts: 4991
Location: Canadian Prairies - Zone 3b
1352
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I'm looking forward to your reports!

Some photos of the equipment and before/after would be really helpful too.

Luck!
 
John Warren
pollinator
Posts: 89
Location: Southeast Oklahoma - Zone 7B/8A, 50"+ annual precipitation
44
kids bee woodworking
  • Likes 3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Well, it didn't end up working out afterall to get the unit I thought I was getting, but after a bunch of delays with that and then it falling through, I caved and bought one from Amazon.

It is actually a model I had somehow overlooked before and is both a bit more powerful and a smidge wider than the one I was planning to get. It did cost more, but not as much more as I was thinking a unit like this would.

Today ended up being my first time using it and so I am here to report back with some of my findings so far...

First off, due mostly to the time of year, a lot of the weeds have wilted back from their fullest height and bushyness, but some areas are still fairly intense with overgrowth.


The first place I tried it out on was an overgrown area between a couple of sidewalks in our front yard.

BEFORE:




AFTER:



Now, most people using a dethatcher or scarifier would be horrified if this was the end result, but we are pretty pleased with it.

I think it would probably dig a bit deeper into the soil if our ground was even remotely level, but even as it is all of the existing plant growth is getting destroyed and most of the roots near the surface are being ripped clean out.


After lunch, I decided to try the most troublesome spot in the backyard.  Before the weeds there started falling over, some of them were 7 feet tall. Most of the area in there had plants 5-6 feet tall and then 3-4 foot tall ones cramming in any gaps they could find.

They seem to be wilting some over the past few weeks. We also rescued a stray recently who seems to love hiding in the overgrowth and he knocked a bunch of stuff down. And I had pulled one of those roller things that connects to a lawn mower through by hand just to see what it would do. That is all before this before picture.

BEFORE:



AFTER:



Still some work to do in this area, but I made a ton of progress, got rid of the majority of the most problematic weeds, and the difference when viewed in person is hard to measure.

Again, not the results most people want for their lawn, but I'm now a lot more confident that if I spread seeds on this soil I'll be able to get something to germinate!


However, I do need to mention that I did have some issues with it getting bound up:



Aside from the time it sucked in a chunk of a 2x6 and got that lodged in there, which I probably shouldn't fault the machine for, it seems to mostly happen when I am working on an area with long string grass or plants with long and strong fibers.  

The 6 foot tall weeds I was cutting through a forest of are fairly woody and fibrous, so they did have this effect if I let an entire plant get sucked up at once.  But I figured out that I could run the machine over the base of the plant cutting it off from the roots. Then after I had done a small patch of them like that, I turned off the machine and moved the tiny trees over into a pile that was out of the way and proceeded to repeat the process.

Once these plants dry out, they become brittle, so I'm thinking if I want to, then in a few days I should be able to chop them up with the scarifier and turn them into mulch. Or I could compost them, I guess.


In the meantime, the dog I mentioned who likes to hide in the overgrowth had a fun time burrowing tunnels into the pile, laying on top of it, and just making it his own little den.

Here's Mudd wondering what he did to deserve such a blessed life:




So far, my conclusion is that it probably isn't as effective as a power harrow or something like that, but for the budget option it *can* work.  Now... using it once or twice on any particular cover crop may be enough to make me swear off that covercrop until I have some other method of killing it, if that crop is highly prone to binding it up. But I am also still wondering if there might be a way to convert one of these to a little flail mower which could be less likely to bind if done properly, I think...

Other thoughts: It can be a bit hard to push over very uneven ground or into very overgrown spots, but it's not unworkable in my opinion.

I'm sure I'll have more thoughts as I have time to stew on it and also use it more.
 
steward
Posts: 16058
Location: USDA Zone 8a
4272
dog hunting food preservation cooking bee greening the desert
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I like winter rye because it dies when the temperatures start getting hot.

From reading the forum, a lot of folks use chop and drop on their cover crops. Especially when they used a perennial cover crop like some clovers.

If the dethatcher/scarifier works for what you intended it to I hope you will let the forum know.



 
This tiny ad isn't wearing any underwear - WOO!
Heat your home with the twigs that naturally fall of the trees in your yard
http://woodheat.net
reply
    Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic