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Russian Permaculture Dissertation

 
                                  
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So I started an earlier thread about the Russian Spiritual Permaculture and I was wondering where the data was coming from. I then managed to e-mail the man making the claims, Dr. Leonid Sharashkin, and he apparently wrote his dissertation on the subject. Apparently the data that I referred to comes from the Russian government and you can download his dissertation at his website below. I am now much more trustworthy of the data that was mentioned in the presentation and I think that I will have a good time reading over his dissertation. Enjoy!

http://www.primaryagriculture.com/
 
rose macaskie
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Love the photo of Dr Leonid Sharaskin. The earth does not exactly give freely if we really push things the rock flowers, flowering being the Spanish expression for getting bared and things go badly wrong We need to understand what we are doing.
      Typical of a big country to give people small allotments. Spain is so mean with land they bury people in shelves in specially built walls while in little england each person gets a grave. They live in flats while in England Moores idea which is part of his book utopia, that each person should get a house and garden, really means that there are lots and lots of houses with gardens. think of a healthy idea one century and centuries later you can drive through miles and miles of houses with gardens developed when people have forgaten the origen of the idea thast benefits them.  I suppose they dig you up after a few years in England and put you in a charnel house, not quite sure what that is.
No i think the russian ideas are great but we should fight for decent sized allotments. Give people just enough back garden to survive but not to thrive is part of the old elitist way of maintaining your elite without much fear of competition from others. Comunism was ever a tyranical system as was fascism, much as it pretended not to be.  Hard to compete while you fight to survive, be it only as a skinny and thin underfed human and i remember them, so that was real not very long ago, in europe. agri rose macaskie.
 
Joel Hollingsworth
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I think a charnel house system is a more permacultural mehtod than most, after burial under a tree and traditional Zoroastrian burial (some Buddhists in Nepal also use birds), perhaps the most permacultural.

Where population is too dense to plant trees often enough in a given climate, it makes a lot of sense.

If you're interested, there's a famous one in the Czech republic, where a nobleman commissioned an artist to arrange the bones.  It's full of odd arrangements, like chandeliers and a coat of arms:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedlec_Ossuary
 
rose macaskie
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       In Tibet you get a sky burial, the monks cut you up and spread your around over the hills so the vultures can eat you and the ground can get you, or somnething of the sort. Rather not be that monk. It is ecological return to nature and the name makes it sort of nicer psychologically, the idea of being, of still being in a place open to the sky. Still  prefer flowers to charnel houses.
      Gosh, in your ossuary connection garlands of back bones hanging from the ceiling, the perfect church for Homer and Bart Simpson.
      Can you imagine how damaging that series is, thousands or millions of girls will marry lounge potatoes imagining a lounge potatoe has as much get up and go as Homer Simpson and after all they will be lounge potatoes. agri rose macaskie.
 
                                  
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rose macaskie wrote:
Comunism was ever a tyranical system as was fascism, much as it pretended not to be.  Hard to compete while you fight to survive, be it only as a skinny and thin underfed human and i remember them, so that was real not very long ago, in europe. agri rose macaskie.


I wouldn't use the USSR or China(or whoever you were referring to) as a basis to exemplify communism as a "tyranical system". Neither of those was/is a communist state despite their claims or the claims of other people. There are in fact some excellent examples of how communism has significantly helped people throughout the world. On a local level communism seems to work very well in Cuba. On a national level there are certainly still issues but that is because on a national level it is more of a totalitarian state. Also, the early Christian Church right after the death of Jesus and about 100 years after that is one of the finest examples of working communism. The communist state of Kerala in India is another excellent example of what can happen when a communist government can occur. This isn't to say that there aren't problems within each and every one of these examples. But, all of the other systems in the world have their issues as well.

Btw, I wouldn't consider myself to be a strict communist so please don't paint me as a poster child. Some form of communal anarchist with democratic tendencies would probably be more appropriate.
 
                                  
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Wow. You just wrote a whole bunch of stuff and none of it really makes sense. If I remember correctly you live in Spain and my guess is that English isn't your primary language. I don't mean to be rude but I can't really decipher what your message is. You seem really ticked off so maybe take some time, go enjoy your garden, and then maybe come back and rewrite this so that it can make sense for me. If not, that's fine too. It looks like you are really worked up and maybe you just need to set this one aside.
 
                                  
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Btw, my closest religious affiliation would be Unitarian Universalism. Probably 1/2 of the members of my congregation are agnostic, 1/4 are atheist, and the remaining 1/4 would be a mix of Christians, Buddhists, Muslims, etc. I certainly have my issues with a lot of the organized religions today. However, that doesn't make the early Christian church any less significant in its exemplary usage of modern communist practices. That was my point.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarian_Universalism
 
paul wheaton
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I warms my heart to see folks talking about religion and politics in such a friendly manner.  I'm going to pretend that, as community steward, I had something to do with it, even though I know I really didn't. 

And .... I would like to humbly request ... that any discussion about religion or politics probably be taken to another forum (like - not this site).  I'm dreadfully worried (panic?  freaked out?) that others might find this discussion a place to start a flame war to end all flame wars and then there won't be any more community. 

Sorry to rain on the parade.  I'm just trying to do my (unpaid) job. 




 
                                  
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I was actually about to suggest the same thing. This is very off topic and should be discussed on a separate forum area.

Paul, any chance we could continue this discussion under the subforum "Meaningless Drivel"? People should know from the title of that subforum that they shouldn't get too worked up.
 
paul wheaton
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My feeling is that I think it would be okay to talk about this sort of thing in the meaningless drivel forum as long as people speak respectfully to each other - talk about the issues, and not about the other participants in the discussion.

And at the first sign that stuff is getting .... uncomfortable ...  I should delete the thread. 

The nice thing about deleting stuff from the meaningless drivel forum is that nobody should be mad about it.  After all, if they are mad then it must have had meaning, and, therefore, is not appropriate for a forum called "meaningless drivel".  Right?

If the thread started off mentioning this stuff, then it might have a longer lifespan.



 
rose macaskie
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  I like the idea of communism, but what is to make it work there is no p9ossiblility of an opposition you can't have comunists against comunists. It took centuries to create the justice system, there were judges doing the rounds in england to try seriouse cases from 1166 on and the justice we know now the  different safe guards there are to make sure people don't get tried unjustly, have developed since then. It takes a long time to develop the boundaries and safe guards of a new system, how long would it take communism to iron out the problems that have been found to exist in its implimentation that have not created riches but caos in comunist countries. and the drying of the aral sea because it wasw to easy to sign a paper ordering the use of the water in the rivers for irrigation htat made the district earn a lot from cotton for a while but ended up creating desertification.  
     Morality is a hard one you learn a lot of ideas that are very attractive because of their amiability and then you find them used by a lot of bullies. An example of ho w agoo didea can be used to bully people ithat has little to do with morality is, you ask someone why they have pinched a freind of yours and they say you have to learn to live in the present, learning to live in the present is an idea that comes from psychology i think. So, living in the present becomes a reason, not for you to get used to the inevitable, but for peole to count you out, decide your desires are not important because you can just get used to what they have to offer you.
       Basic to bullying is to find faults in the victims, it excuses their abuse of you or their trashing you.  Morality gives bullies the excuses, it only need some ingenuity to accuse the victims of the sins. Imagining that you have had bad motives for your actions is the easiest way to blacken, motives are something that can't proved one way or the other, this is the easiest way to blacken others. An easy way to know if people are dangerouse freinds or not, is to notice if they always invariably think up a lousey motives for your actions or not if they do, then it is probably self destructive to know them. The person who gives constructive criticism will not invariably think up a really bad motive for your actions.

      I am for the equality of opportunities,attempt to reduce that sort of egoism that consists in having difficulty in seeing other people potential. The churches have taught their preachers to a level they have not taught their parishioners, they apreciate the value of not letting others get the better of them for their own workers but not for the people they wish to indoctrinate.
      The anarchist in Spain did give higher education to people in villages children and grown ups. They were great.  
      The only thing that assures the passing of knowledge to everyone is the school curriculum imposed by the goverment, without such an imposition people start to discriminate against each other so that a lot of people don't recieve lots of information.
      As a woman i have to add there is the purposful,  more wicked counsciouse effort to reduce peoples possibilities, rather than the simple difficulty in seeing they can take it.
      Other than schooling, the traditional demands for a certain type of conversation if you are on a social visit england among a great part of the population, often also works to oblige people to maintain sensible conversation . In spain there is no such obligation in in mixed circles in the circles i move in, there is probably an obligation to have seriouse conversation among men. Farming is seriouse it has to do with feeding us. Politics is seriouse it has to do with everything else, the arts discuss psychology politics and society and so are seriouse. etc.
    Another source of equality are islamic rules which demand the consulta, consultation, sulta being the hierachy and having a hierachy meaning, at least in Morrocco an obligatory discusion of many family matters for example, probably village matters too with the other males of the extended family. For example in Fatima Mernissies book "In the harim"   the spainsish version is called "On The Threshold" her autobiography, when her mother suggested sending the children to the french school, her faather called together his brothers, his wifes brother, to defend her pioint of view, his father, probably his cousins, her family lived in the country, to discuss it, they decided to send the girl to the french school but not to let the mother learn to read and write .  Boys are included in male conversations they give their opinions and listen to the other mens opinion. Women aren't included which is bad but at least all the men are obliged to talk on all sorts of themes that don't include football. I don't mind people talking of football, clothes, or  whatever as long as it isnot the only thing theyare interested in. This consultation, enforced by religiouse and cultural tradition must help the level of education in the country.
       Another place i know that includes this  sort of disciplined discussion of things is alcoholics anonymouse, i took someone once to three meetings and even listend to one. I noticed they had organised discussion of themes and each person talking, people who weren't normally given to seriouse discussion and people who were used to it were there as th egroup was not one of people who had got together because they liked each others conversation, so it made for  that sort of conversation should give adult education or the maintainance of adult abilities once school is over. agri rose macaskie.  
 
                                  
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http://www.permies.com/permaculture-forums/2410_0/meaningless-drivel/communism-champion-of-mankind-or-bastion-of-tyranny

Rose, we really have gotten off topic. Any chance you can repost this in the thread linked above?

Paul, maybe give us a few days to transfer any and all info we want from this thread and then we can delete the off topic comments from here.
 
rose macaskie
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is talking of the dangers of religion an off topic?
Everyone know rerligion has its off points. We know that in islam women get shut up. We know that historically confessions have been used to frighten peole and bring them into lots the legionaires,there really are lots of them  i can't remember the names of all the others, i will look them up and send them later.
      Criticising communism is impotant is it not, or is this the epoc of only criticising materialism. People seem to be really counsciose of the dangers of materialism that have lead us to the present economic moment but they are not attacking of the dangers of other gruops.  It ia a bit mad when we are so counsciouse of the dangers of materialism and all voices are so quiet on that dangers of other groups. May be talking of buddhism is what you don't like? and would like to get moved.  Permaculturist as it is. You are a man , do you pretend these groups aren't dangerouse wouldn't a man scorn to belong to a group that did not have a pretty good lot of teeth, a good sharks jaw, maybe you are a woman. i don't know anythign about he name kabir. holism and other cultural ideas is part of permaculture.
Catholics like to criticise others till they have wiped them off the earth, their excuse for doing this  is the impotance of transpereency but itf you say anything about them they ask for respect if you want respect you hav eto give it any way what honest group cannot take a good overhaul? If you live in glass houses don't throw stones. agri rose macaskie-
 
                                  
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rose macaskie wrote:
is talking of the dangers of religion an off topic?


In a thread concerning someone's dissertation on Russian Permaculture it most certainly is. Please stay on topic and post your comments about communism and religion in the link provided above. I would be more than happy to debate the issue there with you. I have asked Paul to delete these comments in the next couple of days so please copy and paste any info that isn't on topic but you still want to keep into the other thread. Thank you!
 
rose macaskie
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sorry i got ho thinki gthis was the what is permaculture thread it isnot right at all in the russian permaculuture dissertation .
  i appreciate that wha tpeople have done on dachas is proof of what you can do i just know that historically what people have jsut about managed to survive on has been an excuse for leaving them with a bare minimumum with not givign them a bigger garden even though they could for example. English village gardens were used like russian dachas to keep the family just about alive . agri rose macaskie.
 
rose macaskie
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Of course you must clean up the russian topic. i have my essays in my head. rose.
 
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