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the first willow feeder (wheelie bin pooper) at paul's place - "chateau de poo"

posted 11 years ago

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Below you'll find the whole on how the first willow feeder at Wheaton Labs came to be.

Here are some images taken during construction:

Details from the inside and finished project:

And the first willow feeder, "chateau -de-poo" finished!

Update.... we decided to refer to this type of contraption as a "willow feeder".

I am scrambling to accomplish a lot of things and ... the highest priority project right now is the pooper.

The design is that there will be a garbage can inside and the poop goes into that garbage can. It looks like this:

(buy at amazon and feed the empire)

We're going with this container because my brother has lots of these.

Dimensions:

inside diameter at the top: 20 inches
outside diameter at the top with handles: 25 inches
outside diameter at the top without handles: 21.5 inches
outside diameter at the bottom: 18 inches
total height: 27 inches

The pooper will be on log skids like my farrowing hut:

http://www.richsoil.com/sleds/pigs/hut_65.jpg

The idea is that the garbage can will be close to the hole - so there is no chance of anything ending up outside of the garbage can no matter how much digest distress there might be! At the same time, air needs to be able to move from the sitting area into the chamber for the garbage can and up a vent pipe.

I like the idea that the inside will be roomy and maybe even nice!

I would like to get sketchup files so that people that people can add on to the designs without having to start over.

I'm thinking that there are folks that are as passionate about all this as I am and cool with fiddling with sketchup to come up with a design.

And I'm willing to throw in a permies.com tshirt and mug to the best design.

Anybody wanna have a go?

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paul wheaton

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Oh! And for the final design winner, I would be glad to name the pooper whatever you want. Name it after yourself or somebody else, or think of a wild-ass name. Whatever you want!

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I like the portable structures I build to have a big roof so that I don't have to paint them.

pooper-1.png

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Here is my farrowing hut stuff - I kinda think this will be fairly similar:

http://www.richsoil.com/sleds/pigs/farrowing_hut.jsp

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Above view-ish

pooper-2.png

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Adrien Lapointe

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So is the idea to move the hut away from. the poopy garbage can when it is full?

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The garbage cans are pulled out and set aside for two years.

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Adrien Lapointe

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So the hut is on skids just in case you want to move it?

paul wheaton

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Yup! I suspect it will get moved a half dozen times.

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Bill Kearns

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posted 11 years ago

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Hey Paul,
You gonna use only onsite materials or purchased stuff?
I once sheathed an outhouse with cedar fencing ... was the cheapest stuff I could find at the Depot (much cheaper per square foot than ply),
PLUS
the outhouse smelled very nice!!
It also had rooftop water collection into a 55 gallon plastic drum that was plumbed to a small sink for washup and a pair of "Dutch" windows that could be opened to the view.
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aw so sorry I would love to dive in but am on a deadline --so sorry.

paul wheaton

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We don't have any milled wood yet. And we need a pooper right away. So, I suspect we will be purchasing some materials.

I don't want to use any glues - so waferboard and plywood are out. Hence, your choice of cedar fencing is a good choice!

I like the water collection stuff!

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paul wheaton

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I had this idea for the vent working better - but it would require some trial and error. Metal vent pipe that is insulated. In theory, it will be hotter inside the chamber due to the composting of the poop. And, of course, the top part is painted black to catch the sun. But! What if the top part is surrounded by a thermal mass like cob? And the south side has glass over an inch of air? So there could be a super hot greenhouse effect.

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kadence blevins

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paul wheaton wrote:I had this idea for the vent working better - but it would require some trial and error. Metal vent pipe that is insulated. In theory, it will be hotter inside the chamber due to the composting of the poop. And, of course, the top part is painted black to catch the sun. But! What if the top part is surrounded by a thermal mass like cob? And the south side has glass over an inch of air? So there could be a super hot greenhouse effect.

um... I might be completely wrong here but my first thought on that is... super hot + poo = smell of baking poo *GAG*... but I've never done too much with this sort of thing other then strategically placing "treasures" in holes around the woods.

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I'm scribbling some ideas down on paper right now and I'll try some things out on the computer when I get home, but...
What's the best way to get a Sketchup file to you? Email, fax, telepathy?

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Ken Peavey

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For the vent, galvanized stove pipe should do the trick. Can be painted black to absorb more solar energy, giving the pipe some convection. It need not be a wind tunnel, just a steady flow.

How about a soda can heater for those cold months?

Will the user be tossing in some leaves when the job is complete? A hopper or containers inside the privy would be handy.

A small closet and shelves would be handy. Keep a broom, spare rolls, feminine hygiene products, hand towels.

I like the sink and rainwater collection idea. Perhaps a foot pump for tank to faucet water flow.

Just one seat?

On job sites there is often a row of portajohns. I refer to it as the Rose Garden. The truck that services the units is the Rosemobile.

Once full the containers will be left undisturbed for 2 years or will you have a humanure compost heap to which the contents are added?

Lighting. Transparent roof. A sheet or 2 of Tuftex sure would be handy. No telling what you'll find poking around in the dark. White interior paint to keep things bright.

Coathook. This is key to the whole operation.

Under the seating area, towards the front, a splash guard will be practical. This will need to be inside the can prior to use. A layer of leaves in the bottom of the containment space or an open floor would be prudent.

Happy Pooping!

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Chris Kott

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Does the whole nutrient cycling thing with detrivores not work with human poop? I mean, is it an option to cycle the finished solids with first Black Soldier Fly Larvae, then red worms, mealworms, or mycelium in whatever order most appropriate to provide feed for livestock and kill the pathogens? Or perhaps a biogas feed into your propane gas generator?

Apart from that, I think a hopper you can load from outside with your carbon component, with a chute and mechanism for "flushing" it onto human additions in measured amounts would be a good consideration.

-CK

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Mary Lou McFarland

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posted 11 years ago

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Absolutely, without a doubt the best privy design I have EVER seen was in the book "Three Thousand Mile Garden" It was a two seater but only one was in use at a time. Built into a hill so when it was time to remove the side that had been composting for a year, you simply went around to the downhill side, opened the door and shoved a dolly under the barrel that was halfway to good dirt. Placed a new 55 gal barrel in the privy 'basement' then retired the second hole for a year and the side with the new barrel was open for business. Personally portable privys ... privies? make me uncomfortable. For certain moments in life one wants a bit of stability.

However if you are getting ready for company and need something quickly then I would suggest that you make your wee house with 2x2's for the corners and roof framing. Make a solid deck. As your garbage can will be too large I would suggest you cut it down. If it is to be portable why bother with repeatedly digging holes to accommodate the thing? For the siding I would use a very, very old Mother Earth trick and cover it in canvas and then paint it. The door likewise a framework like a screen door structure and covered in painted canvas. You can still put a light weight metal roof on for catching rain water.... and hopefully have part of it go to a hand washing station. Lower part of the canvas in back can be framed to be a little access door. As the garbage can would be cut down you will want to put rope handles on it so you can pull it out and from there use the two wheeler dolly to get it places. Of course this would be the company's coming get out the extra euphemism type out house. But it would be cheap and for the cost of the lumber savings you could build a spare or two. For every day use, you should take a look at that book. Amazing lou!!!

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posted 11 years ago

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An idea for your poopers. I build with scrap wood (I have too much of it from plantations, as you could imagine) so I build everything I can that isn't meant to be permanent, using scrap, with a little fastners as I can, like use twine (the sisel type) insead of nails, etc. That way, in just a couple of years, I just cut the twine and let it all fall down. I figure the time I save mucking out offsets building something new.

And of course, the wood is a long way to making soil...

I have recently been doing this with fencing for chickens, when that section is finished, it all goes into the ground, though some dirt in some places, and now, food forest - and move on to the next place.

Now, if I could only convince my wife to live as a nomad on our 900 acres this way...

Sustainable Plantations and Agroforestry in Costa Rica

paul wheaton

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Nicholas Green wrote:I'm scribbling some ideas down on paper right now and I'll try some things out on the computer when I get home, but...
What's the best way to get a Sketchup file to you? Email, fax, telepathy?

Attached here.

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One seat.

I think we'll figure out stuff for the cold months later.

Will the user be tossing in some leaves when the job is complete? A hopper or containers inside the privy would be handy.

Leaves are good. Sawdust / wood chips might be better. Any carbon. I think the hopper idea is good. I was going to say "bucket" - but I like the idea that we can build something that will be appealing and nice - so a bucket might be a bit to rough.

A small closet and shelves would be handy. Keep a broom, spare rolls, feminine hygiene products, hand towels.

Sounds good!

Perhaps a foot pump for tank to faucet water flow.

How easy/hard is that?

Once full the containers will be left undisturbed for 2 years

Yes.

Lighting. Transparent roof. A sheet or 2 of Tuftex sure would be handy. No telling what you'll find poking around in the dark. White interior paint to keep things bright.

No paint. Windows up high so there is a lot of light inside, but high enough so there is oodles of privacy.

Coathook. This is key to the whole operation.

Yes - for anybody wearing overalls, the coathook is very important.

-----

Urine diversion is a good thing. I think to a carbon mulch with soil - hopefully near a poop beast.

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paul wheaton

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Chris Kott wrote:Does the whole nutrient cycling thing with detrivores not work with human poop? I mean, is it an option to cycle the finished solids with first Black Soldier Fly Larvae, then red worms, mealworms, or mycelium in whatever order most appropriate to provide feed for livestock and kill the pathogens? Or perhaps a biogas feed into your propane gas generator?

I think those discussions would be best for a new thread.

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paul wheaton

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After some discussion: I'm willing to put in a few mugs and tshirts into this design process. I like the idea that we get two or three sketchup files and then folks will take those and add their ideas and lots of folks will add ideas and in the end we will have something that might be a combination of ideas from three or four people.

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In our outhouse, sawdust is the magic trick that makes everything work nicely. Dry sawdust can absorb so much moisture that there is no need to separate urine and solids. It seemed counterintuitive, but urine is what stinks more than the solids, so absorbing them into the sawdust really kept the odor down. Tossing your TP in the bucket wont hurt anything in this arrangement. Leaves mat up too much, dont absorb much liquid, and make the bucket go anaerobic which is gross and stinky. A little wood ash seems to help keep things more sanitary too, maybe it helps neutralize the pH? Periodically adding some kind of compost starter is a good idea as well, the wastes begin breaking down as the bucket is filling, so you can go longer without changing out buckets, and the odor is greatly reduced.

A good tight lid to keep flies out of the bucket is key as well.
Lime plaster or lime based milk paint (natural and non-toxic) could be good choices to keep the inside bright, and the surfaces smooth which discourages spiders.

Make bucket removal a penance for other screw-ups. Definitely the least popular chore on the farm and the best way to tell your wife you love her. Nothing says I love you like showing up to a fresh pooper bucket with clean sawdust in the morning.

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Adam,

I think you are considering a different design. It sounds like material that would be good for a thread in the composting toilets forum.

This design won't have a paint or a bucket that is sealed between uses.

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Adam Klaus

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I guess I am not understanding. So when you walk into the pooper, the last person's donation will be visible through the hole? Partially covered in carbon? I think you will have crazy fly problems in that context.
I totally understand the lack of wall finish as a personal choice, my outhouse is just raw boards too. I would upgrade that in a future design though. Lime wash is pretty sweet, with casein as a binder.

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We use sawdust as cover and I think slightly damp when added provides better odor control...we pee in a separate bucket so not much ends up in the poop bucket. Adam is correct that whole leaves just don't do the job. They do work finely shredded.
I like the way the large opening of the barrel under the platform could make venting easy. (EDIT...Meaning the vent should have room to run directly to the barrel through the bench behind the seat and not interfere with the seat or sitter). I think an important thing is to have the barrel pushed up snug against the platform, not just close and a snug fitting seat, all so the vent can do it's job and also avoid the small gnat/fly? that always shows up summertime..

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Perhaps a foot pump for tank to faucet water flow.

or you could do a simple hose from a bucket/tank on the roof... course it would freeze up in winter i'd think but would work in the summer.

No paint.

milk paint? lime wash? just curious thoughts on this.

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A foot pump in operation, kinda.

Whale Babyfoot Galley Pump shown in the above video. One line in from the water tank. One line to the sink. This allows the water tank to be anywhere (on the stable floor for example) and still provide water at the tap on demand. Simple installation: hose and hose clamp, screw the pump to the floor. I think freezing may cause damage.

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I've not downloaded Sketchup, still working with MS Paint.
Simple floor plan, plenty of space if 8x8 square.
Build a deck on skids, 8x8 deck on top. For the walls, consideration of Tall people steers me to thinking tall walls.
A small set of stairs could be constructed, load em up when moving
Windows over the sink and chair offer cross ventilation. Being the privy is on skids, these windows would be an extra foot off the ground to begin with.

Cl Closet
S Sink
T Tank for rainwater
2 Target for #2
H Hopper
Ch Chair
V Vent

pooper.JPG

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Some aspects of the 'drum privy' described and illustrated in the 'Toilet Papers' by Sim Van Der Ryn...pages 44 thru 47 could be helpful.

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We had a design fest last night featuring pen and paper.

This is a rough recollection of what we came up with.

The garbage can will be moved to be able to sit on the floor (we need the chamber that the garbage can is in to have something of an air seal because we want air to move in the poop hole and up the vent).

The shed roof need to be aligned south (highest part to the south) and a trombe wall is put in the south wall with the vent pipe. There will also be some sort of cob-like mass to hold heat through the night. The trombe stuff will continue above the roof so it can continue to work in the summer.

pooper-3.png

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Another idea: storage for two other containers.

pooper-4.png

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Adrien Lapointe

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Here is the design that was used at the RMH workshop last fall. I thought it was the best outhouse I had ever been in. There was no smell and we were about 30 people using it over a few days. There was no urine diversion to it though.

I think it was based on Paul's wheely bin idea.

Paul, is that the type of look you are looking for?

outhouse.JPG

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I needed to take a break from doing stuff so I attempted to create a model of the garbage can in Sketchup.

I started running into problems when I wanted to create the handles.

Garbage-Can.jpg

Filename: Garbage-Can.skp

Description: the sketchup file

File size: 37 Kbytes

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Jody Tracy

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Maybe this is too complex - but for the hopper which dispenses dry leaves/sawdust, just build a hopper which you can fill from the outside which has a two chamber dispenser on the inside (like cereal dispensers, http://www.amazon.com/Cal-Mil-Portion-Control-Cereal-Dispenser/dp/B001OK7Y3Q). Could be either the two stage vertical kind, or a rotating kind. The user would just have to pull the lever when they are done. Hope that makes sense.

Jody

Chris Kott

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That is exactly what I was thinking. The closer an analog to conventional toilets it is (in terms of how it is perceived and used by people), the more likely the design will be widely adopted.

I was also thinking that a slightly more complicated system might feature a bowl. That bowl would be sufficiently deep, lets say, supported by the rim of the larger container. It would drop open (the doors open downwards, hinged on opposite sides) to deposit the whole contribution at the end of each use. There were many ashtray designs that used this kind of mechanism. The hopper would drop sawdust or wood pellets or whatever the carbon in the hopper is into the bowl before each poop, and would drop that same measured amount with the flush, and drop carbon on the closed bowl hatch, ready for the next use. All you'd need to do is monitor the levels in the hopper and the tank, and top up the one, and switch out the other at need.

Oh, and I have to second stressing the importance of a vent that bypasses the seating area. Before shelter and privacy, in my opinion, that is the one main advantage of an outhouse over a temporary hole in the ground, or shitting in a lidded bucket.

As to switching buckets, why not outfit a single barrel/bucket/whatever you're depositing into with a port on the bottom, the kind that features a threaded pipe bit that you screw the hose onto. Using off-the-shelf hardware, mostly from the sump pump section of the store, you could rig a simple, electric (or perhaps eventually bicycle powered) sump transfer.

This sounds needlessly complicated, but it would allow for flexibility, and for direct use of the human solids much sooner than the two year wait. While they should be movable with a tractor, I could see advantages to having an alternative to moving the outhouses. One such would be the ability to deal with large influxes of human contribution due to workshops, visits, mass pilgrimages to the north american permaculture holy land, that sort of thing.

It would allow for central processing, and more efficient processing into fertilizer. Also, it would enable biogas power generation, probably fed into existing propane power infrastructure.

So if I was to make a question of this ramble, I guess it might be, is there any reason not to put in a port for mechanical emptying of the poop barrel? I think that even if the transfer mechanism is a hollow helical screw (something like you see in grain operations or industry uses to move granular material) powered by handcrank, there would be less effort and mess potential.

-CK

Judith Browning

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I like the hopper idea. I wonder where it would enter the barrel...from one side or straight from above? It seems like it might be difficult to hit and cover the deposit without having to add a lot of material...a coffee can of sawdust poured on by hand can be pretty accurate:)

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kadence blevins

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Posts: 710

Location: SE Ohio

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posted 11 years ago

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i'm no help on urine diversion but here is what I imagined from the start when paul has talked about his mobile pooper. I think 2-holer is going to be nessecary if you have 5+ people and there is already more then that on the land from the way it sounds. no one likes to stand with their legs crossed hahaha.

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Tom OHern

Posts: 236

Location: Seattle, WA

posted 11 years ago

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Here is my first attempt. It is designed to use full sheets of 4x8 plywood. The verticals are standard 4x4 and the rafters are 2x6. A simple 7' hole is cut out of the front facing plywood and re-attached on hinges to make the door.

The Skids are spaced in such a way that the can that Paul posted earlier should fit right between them. You can start with just one pooper and then easily add a second one later. The thought is that you put the pooper shed in place, put in the cans, fill the cans, and then slide the shed away and the cans will stay in their place and you can comeback and move them later. The back hatch should be removable for this part of the operation. A single 3" vent pipe comes up from the side of the loo box for ventilation.

There should is plenty of room to add coat hooks, simple storage lockers, or even a shower stall if needed.

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