Win a copy of Compost Teas for the Organic Grower this week in the Composting forum!
  • Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic
permaculture forums growies critters building homesteading energy monies kitchen purity ungarbage community wilderness fiber arts art permaculture artisans regional education experiences global resources the cider press projects digital market permies.com private forums all forums
this forum made possible by our volunteer staff, including ...
master stewards:
  • Nicole Alderman
  • r ranson
  • Anne Miller
  • paul wheaton
  • Joseph Lofthouse
stewards:
  • Mike Jay
  • Jocelyn Campbell
  • Devaka Cooray
garden masters:
  • Steve Thorn
  • Dave Burton
  • Dan Boone
gardeners:
  • Joylynn Hardesty
  • Mandy Launchbury-Rainey
  • Mike Barkley

Advancing the cause

 
pollinator
Posts: 386
45
hugelkultur tiny house books urban chicken solar
  • Likes 3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I might be preaching to the choir here, but I feel a rant coming on, so bear with me.

I'm relatively new here, and far be it from me to tell anyone what to do, but why are we here?

Are we here to be an echo chamber of permacultural thought? To be information leaches, sucking down ideas but not giving back?

Sure, we give back to each other, but what are we giving to the world at large?

In the end, I feel like we are a church club, each person going to the next and passing around the same $5 bill, saying, "Hey, I just wanted to bless you with this."

This amounts to spinning our tires, not making progress, and everyone goes home with exactly what they came with.

I think we all need to ask ourselves, "Do I honestly believe that Permaculture can change the world?" I know I do. "Can Permaculture SAVE the world?" I figure it's the best shot we've got.

If you answered similarly, what the heck are we doing? Can anything else POSSIBLY be more important than establishing Permaculture as the status quo on a global scale? I think not.

I don't think I'm alone in my experience here, I found this site, lurked for quite a while, consumed LOTS of good information, dug a bit deeper and discovered I haven't even made it out of the GROWIES section yet, gasped at the sheer magnitude of this site, and started looking for other ways to read and learn and grow in my knowledge and experience and so I started listening to the podcasts nearly every moment I wasn't in front of a monitor.

The podcasts are a GOLD MINE of information (as are the forums), and I have been working my way through them all about as fast as I can.

I recently listened to podcasts 231, 232, and 233, where Paul answered some questions from Ben Lawson, and I have to say, it was difficult to listen to.

I have worlds of respect for Paul and what he is trying to accomplish, through the forums, through the podcasts, through video, through his articles, through various speaking engagements, and so on. He is a one-man revolution.

I can't begin to tell you how frustrated I was listening to these three podcasts. Paul does SO MUCH to advance the cause and raise the banner of permaculture, but again, a one-man revolution. I don't say this as a tip of the hat to him, (although I do mean it that way) but rather, to encourage the rest of us to raise our commitment so that he doesn't HAVE to be a one-man revolution.

Paul has stated that in some communities, (I believe Reddit was named, specifically) self-promotion is frowned upon, and yet, if nobody steps up and promotes his stuff, he has no choice but to do it himself, consequences be damned.

In one of these three podcasts, he mentioned that many people consume the podcasts via itunes, which makes him hesitant to upload new podcasts because the slightly older podcasts get bumped off the list, making the listenership suffer.

I recently signed up for the daily-ish email under the world domination list, but so far, haven't gotten any emails in that regard yet, so in the meantime, I would like to propose that we make a concerted effort to push some of the content he's created, on a regular basis.

I suggest that on the 3rd and the 12th of each month, we dot the internet landscape with all manner of permaculture landmines, so that the casual internet user will have a very high likelihood of coming across something interesting.

Why the 3rd and the 12th? Because I feel that once a month is not frequently enough. Because there are three permaculture ethics and twelve design principles. (Paul might prefer to engage himself here on the 2nd and 12th instead, since he has such a special affinity for the 3rd ethic!) Because the word Permaculture has 12 letters, because Paul has a certain fondness for the number 12...Honestly, there's no particular reason behind it, so feel free to make one up or use one of mine, or choose any other days of the month you want, it's not like the links will disappear the day after.

We need to go back to some of our favorite podcasts, videos, articles, or forum discussions and "social share" them everywhere we can, facebook, twitter, stumbleupon, pintrest, or even just a plain old email. Like I said, a GOLD MINE, no reason to leave it all rusty and dusty on the shelves of cyberspace.

I have some more thoughts to share, but it's getting quite late here, and I suppose it's best to wait and see how well-received this rant will be.

 
Chad Sentman
pollinator
Posts: 386
45
hugelkultur tiny house books urban chicken solar
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
So I was looking over some of my posts and I rediscovered this one. It didn't get any replies, but it earned me an apple, which is good I suppose.

At any rate, it didn't have the impact I had imagined.

One week after I started this thread, Paul started his Kickstarter for Permaculture Playing Cards, which was just the sort of thing that I want to see increase.

Another thing that's changed since then is that most of the podcasts have been moved to scubbly. Not as easy to social share them, but I'm happy to support the empire.

Paul is talking now about the flash drive, which is another great idea.

I'd like to see an increase in the development of tools to aid in permaculture education. Again, I have a few ideas, but I don't want to be the only contributor here...
 
Posts: 2679
Location: Phoenix, AZ (9b)
182
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Hi Chad - I like the way you think!

I'd be interested in sharing Paul's stuff more widely. As I am interested in and mostly address HOT dryland permaculture, I'll have to look for stuff that's appropriate. I have to admit to having limited time so this may take awhile.

Another thing that will help Paul here is doing book reviews on permies.com - this will link him as a valuable source for reviews and bump up his cred as well.

If you want to review a book, do the following:
1. Read the book (or review a book you've already read)
2. Check to see if there's a link to it in this thread: http://www.permies.com/forums/f-83/books
3. Post your review - if possible, link to an image of the book cover. And put your rank (1-10) of 10 up near the top in bold.
 
author
Posts: 946
Location: 6200' westen slope of colorado, zone 6
67
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Hi Chad, I appreciate your enthusiasm.

Myself, I dont think it is my job to 'save the world'. I just want to be the best me that I can be, and let my example shine for others. Gandhi said, "be the change that you want to see in the world," and I believe him.

We all learn a lot here from each other. There is no 'spinning the wheels' in that. I am not passing the same buck around in a circle, I am learning new info and contributing my own insights for the benefit of others. That is collaboration, which is the basis of a movement. All aboard!

I find that here, like in life, those who are truly doing the most, are the least concerned with needing to change other people. It seems like what permaculture needs is real examples of productive projects. I might guess that is why Paul bought land, rather than a tour bus. There seem to be a dozen people with megaphones for every one with a shovel. I think this doesnt help our persuasiveness with the masses one bit. The more we do, and share, and learn, and do more, the more that permaculture can get a foothold in the world. We get credability with results.

 
steward
Posts: 1191
Location: Torrey, UT; 6,840'/2085m; 7.5" precip; 125 frost-free days
118
goat duck trees books chicken bee
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Adam Klaus wrote:There seem to be a dozen people with megaphones for every one with a shovel.


Can I get that on a t-shirt?
 
Posts: 3366
Location: Kansas Zone 6a
37
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Adam Klaus wrote: There seem to be a dozen people with megaphones for every one with a shovel.



Too many televangelists. They always dilute, divert, and pervert the cause.
 
Chad Sentman
pollinator
Posts: 386
45
hugelkultur tiny house books urban chicken solar
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I realize these sentiments probably stem from other experiences, and not from my posts, but it sorta feels like I'm being reduced to a televangelist with a megaphone.

Rather, I'm talking about starting projects like this one:
http://www.permies.com/t/22514/tnk/Permaculture-Game

Or this one:
http://www.permies.com/t/30319/trees/Brainstorming-requested

Sharing knowledge in ways that people are willing to digest.

If we can do that AND grow the empire, bonus.
 
master steward
Posts: 27858
Location: missoula, montana (zone 4)
hugelkultur trees chicken wofati bee woodworking
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I like this thread. I gave you another apple Chad.

I have to tell you that when I recorded the podcast with Ben Lawson, I had a slamming headache. But it took so long to schedule the interview I didn't want to postpone it.

When it comes to the daily-ish email and the world domination stuff - I found that my stalkers are subscribed to that too. So when i would ask people to help with stuff, the stalkers would try to use that request to insert wrenches into the works. So now I only use it when I have a request for something that people cannot throw wrenches into.

Now that I have land to work with i feel I have a long list of things to prove. At the same time, as we work on projects, it is pretty much every day that I mention the idea of ten years from now taking somebody riddled with disease, putting them on the laboratory and they're all better in a week. It is the ultimate experiment. I don't expect it to work 100% of the time, but can it work 90%? Can we take somebody that has been told that they will die in a week and that person will be symptom free in a week?

So far, the #1 way to fund projects/progress is with the kickstarters. I hope to try and do four this year. The workload is bizarrely huge. And lots of people are chipping in here and there.

We run in the red for workshops, but that's a big part of our labor for moving things forward. Not only does it help complete projects, but it also helps to give us video fodder.

Jocelyn probably puts in about 100 hours per week and most of that is for the empire - and she doesn't get paid one cent. So it is definitely not just me by myself.

Adrien is constantly looking to hand over tasks to people.

As for reddit. I popped out there the other day and saw the holzer-haters were hard at work and fools were just drinking it in. So I created a new account and defended his gloriousness.

permaculture has 12 letters - well that is really cool. It never occurred to me!
 
Chad Sentman
pollinator
Posts: 386
45
hugelkultur tiny house books urban chicken solar
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Thanks Paul. For the apple and for the affirmation.

I guess it's obvious that you have a bit of help, from Jocelyn, Adrien, Bart, Suzy Bean, and some others. Perhaps when I wrote that 5 months ago, it hadn't occurred to me how many other people are involved in getting your stuff out. At the end of the day, I hope people can ask themselves, "If various people helped get Paul's stuff out to me, how can I help get it out to someone else?" I don't like the idea of, consume it once and I'm done, and take no regard of anyone after me in the supply chain.

I'm working on a couple documentary video projects as time allows, and I think both will be useful to helping spread some thoughts and ideas about permaculture.

The first is a larger project that is to some extent on the back burner, and the second is the link I shared in my last post in this thread, to a thread called Brainstorming Help Requested. (I've invoked the 48 hour rule, but it's not actually that urgent.)

With both projects, I want to illustrate the Rube-Goldbergian lengths we go to to make our world function. In the first project, this applies to our waste management practices, and the second, to the complex systems we've implemented to replace the role of trees and forests.

I"m hoping that The Permaculture Voices Conference will help me get these projects moving forward, I'd like to get some interviews filmed while I'm there.

I want to activate people to communicate and distribute these ideas and concepts, to infect the culture at large with an awareness of how little the current systems make sense compared to permaculture.
 
Jennifer Wadsworth
Posts: 2679
Location: Phoenix, AZ (9b)
182
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Chad Sentman wrote:"If various people helped get Paul's stuff out to me, how can I help get it out to someone else?" I don't like the idea of, consume it once and I'm done, and take no regard of anyone after me in the supply chain.



Yep - have to agree with this. And I don't see it as televangelizing.

Organizing and putting together projects takes a HUGE amount of time - way more time than one would think. I admire Paul, his many helpers on this site, as well as many others for taking that time to produce a lot of free content and host this forum. I've done something similar, albeit on a way smaller scale, and mostly what you get for all your efforts is a lot of grief, the vast majority of which comes from people who have never done it themselves. It takes a lot of energy and good people to keep going in the face of all of the naysayers, haters, people complaining that you need to make everything free, yadda yadda. These people are energy vampires and resource drains - there is nothing "permaculture" about them because their attitude is similar to "monocropping" - it's a degenerative way of being that will bleed the system dry and then, when they can't gain anything more doing what they're doing, they will move on to another site where they will repeat the process. This is not "regenerative" behavior.

And I get that people spread the word in various ways - by showcasing their own projects, blogging, videos, etc. If saying "hey, I found value in the forums/podcasts/videos put out by permies.com" is not your thing, don't do it. Personally, I like to give credit where credit is due. I also like to be acknowledged when I've done something of merit that is helpful to people - it keeps me going (because god knows people love to dump their negativity on you!) - it makes me feel connected to a community that actually gives a damn.

Looking at the people who responded to this thread - I recognize you all as people who HAVE given back a lot of yourselves to this forum. I have learned a lot from each of you. I want to say thanks to you for being here and adding your insights.

And now....back to plugging away at my own projects.

Coming at you live from "hell's waiting room",
Jen in Phoenix

PS: Paul - is there a "permies.com" logo (squarish) that I could post on my blog to link back to my RSS feed? You know, something that says "follow me on permies.com" or some such?
 
paul wheaton
master steward
Posts: 27858
Location: missoula, montana (zone 4)
hugelkultur trees chicken wofati bee woodworking
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

It takes a lot of energy and good people to keep going in the face of all of the naysayers, haters, people complaining that you need to make everything free, yadda yadda.



I think people cannot fathom how much truth there is in this. How much ick there is. How ugly it is. And half of the ick comes in the name of permaculture.

So much of the work is so incredibly boring. So you go out and do ten hours of boring stuff and get some good feedback and get some haters.


These people are energy vampires and resource drains



This is a remarkably accurate way to put it.

My impression is that most people try to share info, encounter "that's stupid" a couple of times and decide to read a nice book instead.

I don't know what's wrong with me, but I got up at 4:30 this morning and went right to work. Connecting people to information. Researching. Experimenting. And sometime around 7:30 or 8:30 tonight I'll run out of gas. I'll probably deal with (or ingore) about six nasty things through the day.


Paul - is there a "permies.com" logo (squarish) that I could post on my blog to link back to my RSS feed?



Try this: http://www.permies.com/t/26632/tnk/Permies-Banner-Buffet-Eat


 
gardener
Posts: 2603
163
forest garden fungi trees books food preservation bike
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I think that we all have different methods of spreading ideas.

It seems to me that I am most effective in changing lives when I present what I am doing as a potentially attractive possibility rather than what someone should do. I think that most people want to feel that they are doing something their way. I try to let them ask me about what I'm doing. Later, I find people telling me that I was the one who convinced them to try something, even though they said nothing to me and showed no interest at the time. Usually if I ask people about things when I am trying to learn about them but I don't know that much, they are more interested. Then it's more like sharing or co-discovering and less like me teaching them.

My two cents.
John S
PDX OR
 
Just the other day, I was thinking ... about this tiny ad:
Taylor&Zach’s Bootcamp Journey
https://permies.com/t/115886/permaculture-projects/Taylor-Zach-Bootcamp-Journey
  • Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic
Boost this thread!