Energy Return on Energy Invested for various fossil fuel and alternative energies?

I've been reading about the concept of Energy Return on Energy Invested and have learned that the easy access oil used to bring a 24 to 1 energy return on energy invested. Nowadays its closer to 11:1 (harder and more energy intensive to produce). I've also learned that oil sands production drops to anywhere from 7:1 to 3:1. I've heard corn ethanol is also quite low (similar to oil sands). I'm wondering if anyone has heard of some reliable sources that calculate an EROI for agrarian-based societies? I'm sure "agrarian-based" societies are as diverse as anything but there's got to be a generally accepted range for energy input versus output. I read some of the comments on this article( http://www.theoildrum.com/node/8625 ) and got a "sort-of" idea of what such an EROI might be but I'd like to hear where permaculture might fit into this subject? See attached PDF for a "libertarian" view on Fossil Fuels. Again I would be interested in learning how permaculture fits in with this type of view? Thanks.

Hi Evan,
I have problems with these types of graphs and ratios, mainly because they leave out so much in their assessments. This is from an investment perspective and I find it terribly lacking. Let's take something like fossil fuel, specifically oil. It looks good to investors but the hidden costs, the ones they readily dismiss, create massive expenses we all pay. First there's the hidden cost of the military expense, one third of our military cost is used to protect and secure oil channels. Then there's the expense of health issues from smog which the WHO says is creating lung issues in this country. The oil spills and high costs of repairs to ICE (internal combustion engines) that we have become used to as just part of driving everyday. Etc., etc.

Now look at renewables, the energy used to make a PV module is recovered in about 8 months with 25 or 30 years of clean energy afterwards. no pollution, no wars in Kuwait, no feeding money to the people who want to destroy us, no smog, diversification of the power grid (making it more robust) and bringing energy to the individual as opposed to having people dependent upon a corporate entity that decides how much oil should cost.

Drastic differences that EROI never addresses. The biggest difference is human freedom, a free society can not exist in single source control of resources. Energy, food, water, etc. are very much controlled by corporations. That much power corrupts governments and effects the people in ways they never recognize unless they work at understanding how they are being manipulated. Which unfortunately is where this country stands today.

So bottom line, permaculture is way up on the scale when we don't skew perspectives with limited data.

Rob

Evan : Rob Dee was to0 kind by 1/2, this is a Right of center think tank, If you use follow the money rules - You will find the soiled finger prints of the Koch Bro.
Military industrial complex, I used to follow them to listen to where they were getting their talking points from, but they pissed me off 1 time too many and I hit
the un-suscribe button ! Big AL !

Libertarianism has a number of things going for it, but a levelheaded analysis of issues of energy and ecology are not among them. There is a sort of knee-jerk reaction against renewables (mostly due to subsidies and boondoggles) and the conventional power companies are putting out tons of disinfo about the costs of renewables, while totally ignoring the outsourced costs of non-renewable energy.

As for the PDF, the conclusions are laughable.

We can't feed the world without fossil fuels? BS - look at Cuba post soviet collapse. They went organic.

Or the organic farmers doing SRI in India - world record yields for potatoes and rice, no fossil fuels or pesticides.

Any of the Rodale Institutes studies - organic out-yields conventional after a couple of years and keeps getting better with time. Elaine Ingham has a hard time doing side-by-side field trials of organic vs. conventional because halfway through the trials the farmers go completely organic because the difference in yield is so dramatic. They can't finish the studies.

Yukkuri,
Not to spin this thread in a different direction but Monsanto's claim that they are "feeding a hungry world" is absolute hogwash! In 2008 we produced enough food to feed 11 billion people. there were about 6 billion on the planet at the time. It's about profits and control. The more you keep the masses buying your product oil, seed, food etc. the more control you have over them. It's like a snowball rolling down hill, very few people think about living without the super market so the thinking that growing your own food or buying in bulk never arises in their minds.

As for world hunger, it's not an agricultural problem, it's a political one.

I think the rise against the 1% is a good idea but it solves very little. The way to beat the corporations is the same way Gandhi beat the British in India. It's through autonomy, grow your own food and buy organic. Generate your own power, etc.
Think about what PV accomplishes and why there is such a backlash of bad press about it. When you install PV, microhydro or wind you take money away from the corporate oligarchy that runs this country, that autonomy is a reflection of human freedom in every sense of the word. What is going on in Germany now is scaring big oil to death and they are going to do everything they can to mislead the people.

Read about a guy named Edward Bernays and how his propaganda taught the corporations how to control the masses.

I just found this site but I can see there are a lot of free thinkers here looking for alternative methods to exist. that's the best thing that can happen, the Rocket heater is a great invention!

By the way for those people who think PV doesn't work, I live completely free of the grid BUT I don't live off grid - unless I have to. The best way to employ alternate energy is to generate as much as you can and SELL it to the power companies. My system is an intertie/off grid one. That means once my batteries are charged all my excess energy gets sold to the grid. If there is a power failure my system takes over and my batteries maintain my house. This way my batteries last much, much longer, so if you have grid coming into your home this is the best way to utilize your alternate energy.



Rob

here is a good discussion on the subject

http://fairewinds.org/media/fairewinds-videos/road-less-taken-energy-choices-future

The Road Less Taken: Energy Choices for the Future

Duane,
Excellent interview with Lovins!

Rob