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rose macaskie
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karma is an odd thing, I read a chinese seventeenth century novel the her ends up disollusioned with the wickedness of peopleand runs away frm home to become a budhist monk
.  Another character in the book is a nun who the heroes very rich family have given a home to in their garden. She is overly nice and when a poor woman drinks out of her special tea bowl, she has the bowl thrown away as now unclean for her own use. Karma gets its own back on her, the families fortunes crumble ad the luckless nun becomes a prostitute. This is definatley not christian morality, prostitution having the usefull purpose of teaching you humjility or humanity. Mt.goat will find himself swimming in petrol for trying to lift himself to far abouve other humans. My haert is not in it when i mention such a terrible end ffor Mt goat, it is just that a more complicated discussion on karma seems to be a good idea. The story i have just told made me feel karma was complicated and different from what i had expected and that  european north american discussion of it did not seem to be what  buddhist discussion might be.
  A chinese seventeenth book might sound alramingly boring and dry but this one it is one of the most amusing interesting books i had ever read. rose macaskie.
 
Matt Ferrall
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Location: Western WA,usda zone 6/7,80inches of rain,250feet elevation
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Yes Rose,I`m tactless and that does have a Karmic cost.One I have painfully experienced many times.I make no apologies for who I am though.Its also the secret to my success as most of my outreach is to radicalized youth who seem to like my biting sarcasm and caustic hyperbaly.I also live in a very progressive area where anti-civ clubs outnumber permaculture.Unfortunatly,permaculture has developed a less than stellar name in the anti-civ scene due to its relience on endless products and gizmos like greenhouses.I heard Derrick Jenson bring this up about permaculture to a standing room crowd of over a thousand.While permaculture might be considered as progressive as it gets elseware in the country,its starting to fall off the cutting edge of ecological living here.People want real solutions that dont require industrial society.We are sick of being told that products are a solution to a broken culture.Products and technology might allow us to survive in a broken culture but they also keep us trapped in it.What we need is a culture that is permanent!I dont see oil lasting indefinitly but apparently some of you think otherwise??
 
rose macaskie
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        Mt. goat.    I did not think you were tactless, or i would have had to look up all the things you have written to find that out, do some research on you, i just thought that it was worth complicating the karma business. I reckon karma is about as complicated as is the, "is person to go to hell or not" one what was their education what did they understand they were doing? Do you blame someone for behaving in a negative way if they thought it was positive .Law is different from religion recently someone hit the italian priminister in the face with a statue a well deserved blow that knocked his teeth out and was probably a small punishment for all th esuffering a intriguer has probably imposed they usually get others into compormising positions an dmake a hel of thier life even lie to do so. the law canonot allow people to go around cloberign others it might not be so justified next time and it is against the principles of a just trail for badies.In catholic countries the nasty face of inquisitorial trails lifts its head too easily that the person is guilty till they are proved innocent an dyou can accuse them of anythign without any profof at all however damaging.           
    The dalia lama says i can't remember exactly, but that each person thinks they are doing right as they understand the world and right.
the porotestants ecumenicals in america i think, people i new in england used to have a similar attitude, well his mother did not treat him right how could he have known that this is wrong. THat does not mean that you don't try to correct negative fphilosophies gently.

          I am gratefull to anyone for using less oil i wanted to say before you answered that the question is not that we  stop using oil altogether it is that we use a lot less of it.
        Why should the civis mind gimics, it is still true that normal farming causes desertification and health problems whether permaculturists are really gimickless or not they are healthier for the land and us.
      It is  a bit of a distraction talking of whether to use greenhouses or not, from the real issues traditional farming tends reduce the emphasis on good soils and on what soils you are leaving the next generation reducing so by reducing the growing power of the land.
    Chemicals cause cancer. Dr Sanjay Gupter of cnn says more people will die of cancer in the coming year than aids and maleria, why are cancer rates going up? It must be partly due to herbicides and pesticides. In India in a cotton growing region they put on so many chemicals, i think people go more crazy with cotton because its not a food crop, that children are born with skin cancer. In Arizona the growth of cotton caused the formation of a desert, bill mollison, A Belfast or nearby, family doctor my brother in law knows, said that in the begining of his carreer leukemia in children was almost unheard of where he practiced and now they have built a nuclear energy power station nearbye, its fairly commun, and there are people who say nuclear power is not harmfull!

  Still people who want to give people something permanent, of real culture,not just material whatever that means are often on an ego trip, people have a lot of permanent things, a fair amount of them do, their families and ideals even if they are not yours and where they don't no proud generalisations are going to fix things you have to be carfull an dparticular to find out the base problem., it is a problem having people thinking others are no good or need something permanent though i do believe they need information. Unless you are very carefull and pacific you will hurt people more than any real necessity to hurt them goes. If you don't believe in them you will only see their faults and make up faults to fill in the bits of others you don't see, the  motives for their acts and what they have been doing when you weren't with them.
      I have experience with sarcastic people and their despair of good in the world, the lashings they repart, their desrtructivness and their despair at finding a world as wicked as the one they see, they make a negative not positive contribution to life and it is not that i don't see bad, i do, but they beat even me hands down if you get to the bottom of their ideas, though they maybe more descrete about it. The excuse of bullies for bullying, as much to their own faces as their excuse if questioned, is that others are all wrong. Your solutions, if you are this sarcastic person you say you are, will be to wipe out everything and implant your own. So many people are highly imaginative when they find faults in others thaand so good at substanciating their case. There are people who feel its a weakness to sound unsure and quite justified so as not to look soft to back up their suspicions with pretending to have irrefutable proofs.Beign scared of beign soft girly or a poof causes a lot of ills does your morality make provision for that Mt. goat. Can you just jump reading literature the ideas of many men on human complexity and find a easy answer to all our problems .
  sarcasm is not good it is the outwards expression of hate the only answer is to give a lot of time to understanding people and be very weary of yourself when you find faults in them it is ego satifying to find faults in others it makes you look good by comparison.
  Its just then its just plain silly to think we can get along without goods and anyway we can  do clean enegry so why.  Buddhism believes in interdependence. agri rose macaskie.
 
 
rose macaskie
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Its a bit  hard to know if you'll use somthing till you've got it. Here in the south of spain where they have the sun for it a they produce all the winter vegetables infor a lot of europe in green houses. My mother had a sunroom but no chairs in it so it was nice and warm compared with the house but hard to sit in with time i suppose thaqt would have got sorted out. SHe had just a hammock hung pretty high and one day a preist and some other person arrived and i stupidely or maybe mischeviously ushered them into the sun room it was impossible to get out of that hammock in a skirt without showign half your underware. My mother could not offer them anything though she could have sent me off to make tea or some such. 
        I think if you want to start a business you have to know that you will make misttakes and it is wourth putting money into things that you might not need, later on you can decide that you don't need them, if you started the business agian you could then not repeat that fault but though there are somethings you really know you don't need there are other things you are not sure of and it may depend on you if you have time to put into them for example whether they are used or not and it could be usefull to have them when you have more time though you have the money for them now. 

  I have never been on the winning team maybe people who are are selling out on someone or thing, get on the winning team which normally means keeping in with winners and you can't always agree with them. i have not been on anything like the winning team since school anyway and as far as i can judge it has had somthing to do with standing by the weak, though silently, and  because, although i was often polite and even went a long way to look after some winners, i did not lick boots as hard as some do, i did disagree with them when i did. I do know people who think they are on the winning team when i think they aren't, so its all a question of point of veiw.

  Playing rap fights can be a way of keeping you engaged, distracting you from other things and keeping you on the hook, some of the people i most resent are those who have played that game and i shall not forget it, i am no longer the type of person who thinks there should be no return at all for those who are all absorbent and waste my t¡me and i mean a hell of a lot of time as many hours a day as they can, like catholics and considering how they have behavds it is normal that i should be obsessed by them. I take every opportunity i can to let people know what they are capable of, which i call a policy not an obsession. they are aqbsorbent and then they ask you why you were not doing something else, what cheats , they know they had been doing everything they could to keep you busy on their stuff and they really knew you did not want to have anything to do with them though hope springs eternally in the breast of some bossy idiots who like absorbing all the world, not just their own.
  I love things i use every so often, electric saws and drills and such. The plate you only use for the christmass turkey. I am not the most efficient person in the world and if you start to fence me in with rules i become even less efficient.  My mother always bought us up afraid to buy too much, i think it makes you really inefficient, when you lose a biro you don't have another one and such. You have to make endless journeys to the shops. Maybe its people who always got everything they wanted who make up these rules or those with very minimal interests and activities who therefore don't use much of anything or those who belong to a society that provides for the whole community so individuals don't need much. agri rose macaskie.
 
Matt Ferrall
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Location: Western WA,usda zone 6/7,80inches of rain,250feet elevation
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Good points TCLynx!Rose,sorry if this is not fun for you.I really dont mind creating sectarian divisions within movements and a fractured population wasting all its resources squabbling amongst themselves over trite issues is the best way to bring down civilization.But its also entertaining and a world of people agreeing is boring to me.Their are deep truths in some of the dialog but I also sometimes use words and ideas as tools for my own entertainment.So reader be ware-think for yourself!Soon I will be either kicked off or bored of this site and those of you disturbed by intense debate can get back to showing eachother pictures of your pets and such but you will note that the lively discussion Ive helped prompt has imediatly drawn in people and the issues I bring up about greenhouses have some truths.Is discussing those truths a waste of time even if I dont personaly care?Mabey I should have a debate handicap forcing me to make my rants rhyme as well?
 
Robert Ray
gardener
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Good grief? Bring down civilization through a discussion board? 
 
Matt Ferrall
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Location: Western WA,usda zone 6/7,80inches of rain,250feet elevation
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pretty pathetic isnt it.Im obviously totally bored!
 
rose macaskie
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mt, goat you begin to sound dangerouse. did you read the stories of barbar the elephant in th estory of zephar the pricess of the monkeys is stolen and zephar goes of to a strang island covered with rocks to find her the sybal wanrs him it is the that has stolen her and when he gets bored of people he turns them into rocks.
  you are crazy to be disdainfull about stories of peoples goats, do you know how good goats are for poor people they eat grass of the side of roads and give milk to the family, even thought they don't have land that is importnt for some you should realise it and everything is easier if you have heard lots of people discussing the advantages and disadvantages looking after animals is simple and complex didnot leah sattler say a mixed diet keeps them much healthier and saves you vets bills did not you learn that vets bills is one of themain problems with goats did you know all that before and if you did don't you think theire are others who don't know about it and might need to thoughtless peice of work.
i suppose with food stamps the poor don't need food, just respect and a part in conversations that are vital because they affect our lives like farming and politics. Freud says that sex is a big pulsation, it moves peole to get jobs and food so they can have a partner, he also says that death is a big pulsation, death moves us to try to live and to be left out of conversations on goats that affect our lives or human lives and politics is a hardship, another possiblility is that people persuade others that these subjects are boring so reserving the feild for themselves, those who believe them boring will sufer from a feeling of being out of things without understandig very well why.
      There are perfectly polite ways of asking people to talk of complicated subjects ask them to instead of mounting a to do and maybe they need to trust you, you can get ridiculised for talking of seriouse things and unless they  are good at getting tough with those who ridiculise, that shuts your mouth which is maybe what ridiculisers want, they really want to call others stupid, they don't really want to know there most seriouse and strong side.
        You have to give them time to cover the ins and outs of subjects or the people  you ask wil be made to look stupid, Asking them things without giving them time to cover the whole subject  is trying to catch them out, it satisfies your ego and does for them. Your type of goading is often the result of despisng others, they wont function without a goad. You goad them and  at the same time your menacing behavior stops them talking . 
      This seems to be a pretty patient site so you wont be pushed off easily, they haven't pushed me off yet.
      It really can be a waste of time discussing some things when the main body of farming is on such a disaster road and we have global warming and need to get things straight as soon as possible before there is not much population left to try to fill with ideas that you feel will help them spiritually. Forgetting others have spiritual resources too.
  You can make a green house with a few posts and some plastic sheeting, that how their made in Almeria that grows vegetables fo europe in winter annd you can see their green houses formthe moon caccording to one telly vision documentary. agri rose macaskie.
 
Matt Ferrall
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Location: Western WA,usda zone 6/7,80inches of rain,250feet elevation
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Rose,really want to get to 100 here but not if its about percieved personality disorders ect..Heres the deal:Ive spent 10yrs researching edible perennials and low tech food storage techniques in order to pioneer a lifestyle without greenhouses ect...Traditional cultures around the world have developed thousands of techniques to ferment foods for live foods in the winter.Smoking and drying work great too.I do not buy a single vegetable in the winter(beyond some kraut in the fall)I eat apples that last fresh until june and cider viniger for enzymes.Root crops stored in a `root cellar`are my main carbs.The definative choice here was to not get the technology in the first place.That forced me to look for other options. low and behold ,I found them but I wouldnt have if I had settled.There are millions of potentials out there for our future,yet most cannot see them because they only look in the past.History may have led here but now its dead weight is crushing other potentials.The main point people often make is "yea,but its better than this"which is basicaly a way to rationalize a decision made out of fear.
 
charles c. johnson
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Mt. goat my mom has an awesome kraut recipe
 
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