Extreme snow (upper MI living)

Hello all,

I have deduced northern MI as the most suitable place to live for myself in the coming years, especially regarding extreme weather. However, extreme snowfall is a current and real risk.

So, even as someone who has always lived in the great north, the amount of snow (300+ inches a year in some areas) is a bit daunting.

My biggest worry is everything getting buried. Mainly, my animals! I can bug in, have a door on the second floor to exit, and the plants and trees can wait it out, but what about the animals?

One thought is just to build as much covered outdoor space as possible, but without walls, it doesnt do much good. So is a massive barn a must right away, and the pens must not exit under the eaves so the snow doesnt pile up or fall off the roof onto someone.

Also--location siting--a driveway that can get blown off with north winds, or southern exposure to melt it (but not too much/fast? Don't want mud)
Be on top of a hill to prevent being buried and flooding in the valleys...
What else??

Bridget -

I have some experience with UP winters, since I've lived in the Keweenaw for more than 40 years.

Snowfall totals may sound impressive (and, come March or April, they really can be), but we rarely have snow deeper on the ground than 5 feet, even if the snowfall total for the season is upwards of 350 inches.  Snow settles, and the ground, being well insulated by that much snow, doesn't freeze (unless the snow is consistently removed - streets, driveways, etc.) so there is some melting at the ground surface, even in the coldest of weather.  If snowfall is scant (rarely), or in places where snow doesn't accumulate or is removed, then the ground may freeze to the foundation code depths (42" or deeper).  Animals can get stuck (my brother did rescue someone's horse once, which had post-holed after it strayed off the packed down trail), but generally critters manage at least as well as people.  A covered run, or at least a good run in shelter, will give them some respite, but my brother's goats and Shetlands get no special treatment, other than jackets.  I really don't see people doing anything special - barn or shelter, with fenced paddock or run.

Keeping critters from going over fences, especially once the snow firms up in the late winter or early spring, after a few good thaws and re-freezes, may require taller fences than ordinary or other confinement approaches.  When we lived "in town" - we're still in a town, but smaller, now - our dogs would walk over the 4 foot chain link fence which surrounded our back yard.  I kept the yard blown out, so there was a steep wall at the edge of the yard next to the fence - this was a concession to the low slung dog, a short-legged Jack Russell terrier - but once the melt started, the snow walls would become climbable, and I'd need to shave it right up to the fence to keep them in.  That only lasted a few weeks; then the snow had melted or settled enough that they couldn't easily escape, anymore.

Snowfall amounts can also be highly variable from one locale to another.  Calumet, Mohawk or Delaware is entirely different from Lake Linden or Sedar Bay.  Baraga and Amasa get nothing like the snowfall totals in Munising.  A distance of a couple of miles or 400 feet of elevation can put you in a different world, snow-wise.  On the other hand, big snow areas are usually a little less cold (sometimes a lot less cold), due to the lake effect cloud cover.  It is rarely colder than -20F in the Keweenaw, but back inland away from the Big Lake, that can be a pretty common overnight low temp.  I think I'd rather deal with the snow, but it's worth considering the trade-offs.  Sunnier days that attend the clear skies may be necessary for your mental health, if nothing else.  Though not recently, I've seen runs in excess of 30 days in a row when you didn't see the sun, even if there was a brightish spot in the clouds.  Taking Vitamin D supplements can help to ameliorate the effects if you discover that you do suffer from SAD, as can exercise - especially outdoor exercise, like skiing, snowshoeing, snow biking, etc.

Good snow removal tools are a must.  A snowblower may be necessary, depending on the layout of your property and your needs.  Pushing snow back with a plow may work, but you'll need to push snow much farther back early in the season than you think is sane, so that you have room for the later season snow.  A snowblower will allow you to stack snow higher than you can with a plow.  A tractor front loader could be a useful alternative, since you may need the tractor and bucket for other homestead tasks.

A good snow scoop, and good shovels too, may be indispensable.  I really like the Silver Bear brand scoops, but they stopped making them a couple of years ago, so you might need to haunt FB Marketplace or watch garage and estate sales if you want one of those.  The plastic Garant brand scoops are also pretty good, but they won't stand up to being kicked into the bank which the wing grader pushes up after a big dump the way the Silver Bear scoops can be.  To work around this, you'll need to chop the grader bank into manageable chunks with a steel square nose shovel (I prefer a short cross-handle model), then slide the chunks around with the scoop.  Watch what the neighbors do to manage their snow, but just remember that situations differ from one property to another, and one homestead's priorities to another.

Buy the best snow tires you can afford for your vehicle.  Blizzak brand are very highly regarded, but I've never felt rich enough to afford them.  I've had Winterforce brand, which were pretty good.  Long ago, I had Power King snow tires, which were about the cheapest snow tires money could buy, and they were better than good all seasons (at the time, anyway - but I don't think there are any snow tires made under that brand name any more, and all season tires are better now, too).  I've heard good things about the Nokian Hakapeliitta snow tires, but I've never had those either.

Four wheel drive or all wheel drive can be somewhere between helpful and indispensable, but I've managed with an old 2WD Ford Ranger as a daily driver the last few years, with a bunch of sand sausages in the box over the rear axle.  Tire chains may be a good idea if you end up out in the rough stuff, or if you really need to go down the county road after a big dump of snow and the Oshkosh with the V-plow hasn't come through yet.  My brother runs chains on his bucket loaders.

You may notice that some people will have a garage out near the road, and will haul stuff from the garage up to the house with a toboggan and snowshoes or with a snowmobile.  This can reduce the snow removal burden.  I've also seen one driveway covered by what was basically a high tunnel, several hundred feet long.

There is no shame in calling someone with a bucket loader or tractor mounted blower to blast your snow back once or twice a winter to get things opened up again; this is bread and butter for my brother for a couple of months running, most winters.

Regarding snowmobiles, I've never had one, but I am keeping my eyes peeled for an old Ski Doo twin track to re-power with a 4-stroke Honda.  However, my co-worker has a Honda 4 wheeler with track pods for winter use, and he is happy with the performance, and with only maintaining one machine.  Several of the nordic ski trail systems around here use side-by-sides with track pods for grooming and maintenance.  At least one uses a Jeep with track pods made by American Truck Track, in Chassell.

Snowshoes and cross country skis can be very helpful, as well, for getting around in the winter.

I tried to give a broad overview of my direct experience and some 2nd hand anecdotes, to help frame the overall situation, which may help to inform your thoughts and address your concerns about snow management, though perhaps not so directly the point of critters in the snow.  If you have other questions, or if these answers aren't helpful to you, please ask again.

Now, about the bugs...

Kevin

Bridget -

Another thing worth keeping an eye on when considering properties is snow loads on roofs.

In my county, snow loads are specified at 80 pounds per square foot (before any modifiers).  But the adjacent county - and I'm within perhaps 5 miles of the county line, as the crow flies - is specified at 100 pounds per square foot.  I think they're even higher near The Soo.  (For those in metric land, this is about 360 kilograms per square meter and 450 kilograms per square meter - assuming I did the conversion correctly).

These aren't Lake Tahoe, Mount Hood or other western ski area snow loads, but for east of the Mississippi, they're non-trivial.  Keep the local roof loads in mind when constructing outbuildings, sheds and barns and frame accordingly.  I framed a 10-foot wide gambrel roof shed (for attic storage space) with 2X6 trusses, and don't regret it, though 2X4 probably would have been fine.  But, I don't want to be on tenterhooks every time we get a storm, since it's at our lake property and I may not always be able to get out there pronto.

Metal roofs are quite popular, but they are not a panacea.  If you don't install snow guards, the snow may slide off in places, at times, and in quantities that you do not want.  Asphalt tabs (not very permie) - especially architectural grade shingles - will hold up pretty well.  Cedar shakes on skip sheathing will last pretty well (as historic structures have proven) as long as there is good ventilation underneath so the shakes can dry out well.  There is also historic precedent for slate roofs in these parts, mostly on churches, municipal buildings and the largest houses of the very wealthy, but I don't see much in the way of new slate roofs.  The first cost will be high (even if you have the skills to install it yourself, that's likely to be true), so you'd need a long term view; over 100 or more years, a slate roof might actually be very economical, but you're paying for the long life up front.  Not all buildings will have substantial enough framing for a slate roof, either.  Even so, I do occasionally dream of Arvon slates...

Be careful about insulating vent spaces under the roof deck of heated structures.  You'll want to preserve ventilation flow to prevent a hot roof deck, which will make ice.  While it is possible to insulate sufficiently in this climate to prevent a hot roof deck, it is difficult to do on existing buildings.  I could check the Army Corps of Engineers report from Fort Drum (I'll try to find the link and post it here), but it seems to me it requires something like R60, and it can be difficult to find enough room for that much insulation in an existing structure without major reno.  Many older houses have been renovated in the last few decades to convert what was formerly unheated attic into occupied space (typically, more kid bedrooms).  If done well, that can be fine.  If someone insulated between the rafters right against the roof deck, and didn't build a vented double roof when they did it, it will be no end of heartache until you can add some venting - ice dams galore will ensue.  Even 3/4" or 1" of vent space will make all the difference.

Fewer roof valleys will be better.  Snow will tend to wedge into valleys, rather than slide down.  But, my roof has 4 valleys and a shed dormer - it is what it is.  Shed extensions with flatter pitch than the roof above may also hang up snow which slides down from above.

Broad eave flashing on shingled roofs cant hurt, though I've seen plenty of roofs without eave flashing which were fine, too.  Sometimes, broad eave flashing signifies that someone was trying to compensate for a hot roof deck that made ice dams, but sometimes it just means that someone believed in overkill.

One way of dealing with heavy snow accumulations on a roof is to shovel (or scoop - the aforementioned Garant scoops are a lot nicer to drag up an extension ladder onto a commercial flat roof) the roof off two or three times each winter.  There are also roof rakes, which can - at least theoretically - be used to remove snow from a roof while standing on the ground.  I've seen, and used, multiple designs, but the pick of the litter, in my opinion, is the Avalanche brand.  I believe these are Canadian, but I don't remember for certain.  I have the 750 model, which is a bit sturdier than the base 500 model.  I've still had to mend mine here and there, but they do work better than most, and are reasonably durable.  Whatever the case, don't worry about getting the roof down to bare shingles; that's just a recipe for a torn up roof.  Aim to leave a few inches of snow and just focus on getting the worst of the weight off the roof.

Keep in mind typical snow depths on your roof when installing vents and chimneys.  If the penetrations are on the downwind side of a ridge, the snow can pile in deeply and cover up a sanitary vent.  Even a clothes dryer vent should exit well above ground level (4 or 5 feet up isn't crazy).  Direct vent gas appliances, as well.

If I think of any additional helpful hints, I'll add them to this thread, as well as the Army Corps report on insulation and ventilation of roof decks.  It's a gem!

Thank you Kevin, these are some really excellent points to consider.

We have a tractor with snowblower which we were considering selling but I think it's actually worth it to purchsse a trailer to haul it over on. I've wanted a trailer for hauling bales and equiptment anyways. And maybe we can sell our services for snowclearing.

(Feeling grateful I may actually have the ability to do so! Folks, if you can leave your kids anything, leave them land. Im sure y'all already think that way though. Just a shout out to my mom)

We have been looking at hunting camp cabins as a viable option but I hadn't considered the fact that stovepipes or vent pipes may  or may not be ready to function in a four season situation, so i will consider that, especially when it comes to possibly rebuilding the structure to add insulation space.

Will be reading and rereading this, i am sure...

Bridgett -

Happy to be able to pass on a little of my experience in Big Snow Country.

Every time I hear of dreadful natural disasters - fires, hurricanes, tornadoes, mud slides, volcanic eruptions and more - I say to my wife: "I happy to deal with the snow and bugs, rather than that!"  Maybe it's just "the devil you know", but I've made the same calculus as you and reached the same conclusion.

The lengthiest (most complete) version of the Corps of Engineers report that I could spot is here:
https://www.poa.usace.army.mil/Portals/34/docs/engineering/MP5420,%20Ventilating%20Cathedral%20Ceiling%20to%20Prevent%20Problematic%20Icings%20at%20Their%20Eaves.pdf

However, the charts and tables are more legible in this slightly shorter version, here:
https://www.poa.usace.army.mil/Portals/34/docs/engineering/MP-02-5778,%20Guidelines%20for%20Ventilating%20Attics%20and%20Cathedral%20Ceilings%20to%20Avoid%20Icings%20at%20Their%20Eaves.pdf

I may have a copy on my external hard drive, as well.  If so, and it's better than either of these, I'll post it, but these should give you enough to go on.

Anyway, this shows the trade-offs you can make between insulation and ventilation space, and has a model with good predictive power with regard to the required minimum vent space under various circumstances.  Converted attics would fall under the "cathedral ceilings" category, more than likely, as might a story-and-a-half (similar to a high posted Cape Cod) which has been insulated under the pitch of the roof.  If someone stapled up "propper vents" (somewhat like a foam or plastic meat tray from the butcher shop) to maintain an air space under the roof deck before they blew in cellulose, you'll be just fine.  If they filled between the rafters with fiberglass without maintaining a vent space, you may need to take some remedial action, but this paper will give you some ideas.

And, I concur, hang on to the blower attachment for the tractor, at least until you have gone through a winter or two.  If you find you don't really need it, there will be a ready market for it.  And, probably for your services with it, should you find that you only need it "sometimes".

If you don't have a cab for the tractor (even a canvas soft cab), then a full-face snowmobile helmet may make life a lot more bearable.  Two hours of intermittent white washes courtesy of Ma Nature while cleaning out the driveway may be "bracing" the first time or two, but it will get old.  Between good insulated coveralls (mine are off brand, but I usually get my brother Carharts for Christmas) and a full face helmet, it will be a whole lot more tolerable. If you have a cab on the tractor - or better yet, a heated cab! - then you'll be in the very lap of luxury!

Kevin

Bridget,

I have not lived in Mi, but I grew up in Central Illinois and spent plenty of time at my grandparents farm in MN.  The farm certainly gave me experience is real cold, and even Central Illinois could have cold winters with heavy snowfalls.

You say that you come from the Great North, but could you pin that down a little bit?  

My experience is that one of the best ways to survive in cold and snow is simply to learn to drive in snow.  You probably already know this, but it’s worth repeating—My opinion is that 4WD and even AWD is overrated.  They won’t help in the slightest if you don’t know how to drive in snow.  I live in Southern Illinois, but winters here are vastly different than winter in Central Illinois.  My students are obsessed with 4WD to survive snow driving, yet get into accidents all the time.  

I had one student in particular who came in one morning declaring how “impossible” the roads were because she got into an accident in her “Tank.”  I had to look at her and directly tell her that her tank was of no use without the skill to use it.  She was obsessed with 4WD, but I reminded her that every car has four wheel stop.  And she still got into an accident because she slammed on the breaks (her words) and thus caused a skid.  Further, her “tank” was heavy, massive and thus harder to stop because it had so much kinetic energy.  Finally, I explained to her that 4WD was likely going to get her further off the road before she got well and truly stuck.  

4WD just isn’t going to save anyone without the skills to use it.  My best snow vehicle:  1990 Ford Escort!



Again, you probably already know this, but for anyone else reading this, it might be worth considering.




Eric

My four-wheel-drive lets me creep slowly through much deeper snow than a regular car could handle. And it gets me back on the road much better than 2 Wheel ever could. But it does not feel like it prevents accidents for the most part. Being careful and putting on snow tires are more important.

Eric Hanson wrote:
You say that you come from the Great North, but could you pin that down a little bit?  

....

My opinion is that 4WD and even AWD is overrated.  

I grew up on a ranch in SD with a driveway that was a half mile long, and the road to the highway often didn't get get prioritized.

So, snow is not scary and neither is being rural. I also started driving at age 6 on tractors, and in snow at age 12. SD has early learner permits so I drove 25 miles to school for several years. Never did get stuck myself, except in the driveway sometimes! Lol. I have photos of my grandpa standing by our mailbox with the snow scraped back behind him, almost as tall as the electric lines. Maybe I can post that. Idk. Fun memories. Looking forward to my kids hopefully having similar fun memories.

I do agree that 4wd with no snow sense is useless. I am now in northern MN and it is a different game here due to the ice/moisture. I miss the sand on the roads in SD.

Kevin, those are some fun publications! I will keep them handy for the future and dink around with them now. I really value good building science.

Hopefully we can afford a little hunting cabin and not start from totally raw land...we already built a house and it's been a busy last few years... i'm tired haha.

A full face helmet does sound like the lap of luxury, without a cab...we do have a cab, but the windows need replacing...will I find a helmet at a thriftstore first, or manage to get some plexiglass? Time will tell...

Bridget Evab wrote:...will I find a helmet at a thriftstore first, or manage to get some plexiglass? Time will tell...

Thriftstore, Craigs, FB Marketplace...

Polycarbonate is tougher in cold weather than plexiglas.  Any respectable window, glass and door shop should be able to set you up with either one, as well as most hardware and building supply stores.  A buddy of mine just replaced one of the safety glass lights on the cab for the smaller of his "green" brand tractor with polycarbonate.  This light had been broken out twice already, due to the front-mounted blower hitch poking it; it's just very tricky to connect and disconnect if the ground is at all uneven.