Existing potable water cistern

Water is highly politicized these days!
I am surprised to hear you have the situation you describe in the Fraser River Valley, but 🤷🏻‍♀️.  You did get that heat dome, and droughts.

I’m in the North Fork Valley.  I am pretty familiar with Rifle, DeBeque region.😊, lived many years in Collbran, get my honey in Parachute.

I oppose the extraction going on over there, but I think it would be a luxury not all can afford, to refuse to work in a particular industry… economic community as coercive as it is!

I use a Berkey.  Prices have gone up it’s true, but the bigger problem here is that the EPA ddclared their filtering system illegal some how.  I can’t remember the details, I think it was the EPA, and someyabout using silver as a biocide or something.  We can’t buy replacement filters from Berkey any more.

We live quite a ways north of the Fraser Valley, fortunately, very rural.

The 'illegality' of Berkey water filtration was a gross overreach of EPA authority in interpreting their own rules and bizarrely classifying a Berkey system as a 'PESTICIDE???'

I'm not sure what was really happening or their reasoning, but I do know that the recent Supreme Court ruling overturning the 'Chevron Doctrine' whereby federal agencies get to make, interpret, and enforce their own rules, makes the outcome of Berkey's lawsuit against the EPA look pretty promising.

Berkey no longer sells consumer direct, but authorized dealers still stock the filters.

FWIW - here is a list of scam artists Berkey has identified as selling counterfeit replacements. Not surprisingly Amazon, EBay, and WalMart, the three biggest chinese shills host a huge variety of these types.

https://support.berkeywater.com/buyer-beware/unauthorized-dealers-on-amazon/

Thekla, Tommy, and anyone else who is using the Berkey elements:

Are you using the Black Berkey filters, the ceramic Super Sterasyl filters, or both?  Or, are you using an alternate brand/type?

What hazards/challenges are you mitigating?

Most of my experience with water filtration has been when backpacking and canoeing.  Depending on whose filter we were using, those were either ceramic or charcoal elements (that's an XOR - I don't think there was a backpacking grade system which used both technologies in series).  Generally, under those circumstances, it was only biological contaminants that were of serious concern.  I never ended up contracting amoebic dysentery or beaver fever, so I guess the methods were sufficient for the situation (and maybe the water would have been OK without filtration, who can say?).  "Off" tastes were less of a concern, and sometimes we treated water with iodine tablets, so adding some sort of "bev base" to cover any weird tastes was just standard operating procedure.  Tang (some sort of synthetic "orange" flavor, for those unacquainted) would hide almost anything!

However, for longer term domestic use, mitigating other hazards would also be important, hence my query.

Reverse osmosis systems (surplus hand pumped "water makers" from life boats, for example) are also available, but the membranes tend to deteriorate, even in storage, from what I've read, and certainly once put into service the clock is ticking.  Replacement membranes are in the same price range as a new Big Berkey.  Might be just the ticket for a small passage maker, but probably not worth of consideration for general domestic use unless desalination is required.  As far as I am aware, Berkey and similar filter elements are shelf stable for any reasonable storage duration (years to decades).  Definitely a lot less to go wrong with a gravity filter system.

Kevin

P.S.  I do vaguely recall hearing of some kerfuffle with Berkey, but didn't realize that the US EPA, in it's infinite wisdom/hubris, had deemed silver to be a pesticide.  Silver (often a coin) has been used, time out of mind, to keep stored water "sweet".  Heck, I am pretty sure NASA still uses silver to keep their stored water drinkable, up where they've "slipped the surly bonds of earth".

Hi Kevin, I began using the Berkey system because I was on city water that was chlorinated and fluoridated and who knows what else…?  Now, I have this Domestic Water supply and I don’t know how it’s treated. There was some lead detected in the system probably from old pipes in old houses, not from the supply lines, and I already have the Berkey, so why not use it?  From time to time I do drink the water out of the tap. Most people do, but once you stop trusting whoever it is, that’s in charge, it is hard to go back!

It’s probably the ceramic filter, the black Berkey filter.  The one that even removes viruses and other particles that size.

Thekla McDaniels wrote:Most people do, but once you stop trusting whoever it is, that’s in charge, it is hard to go back!

Yup, there's a lot of that lost trust thing going around.  (BTW, we have another broken water supply line in our neighborhood, as of Friday - this one appears to be a service lateral - which is yet another indicator of a failing system, and gives further impetus to get a potable water treatment system of my own set up.)

Thekla McDaniels wrote:It’s probably the ceramic filter, the black Berkey filter.  The one that even removes viruses and other particles that size.

Here's what Berkey offers:  Black Berkey filter elements (probably significantly consisting of carbon or activated charcoal, since the Black Berkeys are specified to deal with a bunch of nasty chemical contaminants); Fluoride and Arsenic Reduction elements; and Super Sterasyl ceramic elements.

Presumably, a dealer would be able to clarify (perhaps even quantify) the relative performance of the two main types (Black and Super Sterasyl).  I can't see a nice tabular comparison of them on the Berkey website, though I may just be missing it.  Much of the website info regarding their filters is a catechism, of sorts - question and short form answer.

And, for any who care, here's a link to Berkey's filing against the US EPA:
https://www.epa.gov/system/files/documents/2024-03/berkey-international-puerto-rico-complaint.pdf
Though I haven't read it in its entirety, Berkey's assertion is just as Tommy stated.  The silver is used in the filter elements to kill the captured organisms, presumably preventing the filter from being colonized by critters and so impairing the performance due to accumulated biofilm.

From paragraph 39 of the filing:
"Berkey filters containing silver are properly classified as treated articles because the
silver is part of a registered pesticide that is used to preserve the mechanical filtration maze itself.
The silver does not act a pesticide for purposes of killing waterborne pathogens within the water,
nor does Berkey make any such claim."

What would have been next - classifying my copper farmhouse sink as a pesticide?  But I digress...

Re my NASA comment
A puff piece on commercialization/technology transfer of NASA's silver ion water treatment methods:
https://web.archive.org/web/20210717054937/https://ntrs.nasa.gov/api/citations/20020080111/downloads/20020080111.pdf
And a more detailed technical article on the technology, with two embodiments given, and a discussion of some of the challenges faced for long term (space flight) use:
https://web.archive.org/web/20240716082039/https://ntrs.nasa.gov/api/citations/20160007509/downloads/20160007509.pdf
I posted the versions from Archive, because NASA's website was slow to respond.

We use the black Berkey filters. Because of cost, I give them a light scrub from time to time and a good rinse to dislodge the minimal sediment/algae we get sometimes in the north lake water.

FWIW - California bans most Berkey products because they require all water 'purification systems' to be NSF certified. Berkey will apparently not allow NSF labs to certify their filters because of the risk of exposing their proprietary construction. Berkey's stance.
Others have tested Berkey filters apparently, and they perform quite well.

So, beware the shrieking of terror parrots, use your own sound judgement.

Off topic - we use a silver/honey treatment for wounds on our animals. Lil'B has an electrical outfit for making colloidal silver apparently. Haven't yet messed with it. It was a silver compound used historically in many places as preventative treatment for infant blindness due to possible STD exposure during childbirth.

Tommy -

Thanks for the elucidation - and especially that the Black Berkey filters can be cleaned.  This is common practice with ceramic filters, in my experience (limited though it is, and largely camping-related).

It sounds like the Black Berkey filter elements would probably do everything I need.

Kevin

Kevin Olson wrote:
George Hauk gives several recipes in his book "The Aqueduct of Nemausus".

Hauk's description of "maltha" is cribbed (with attribution, in the foot notes) from Pliny the Elder:

"Maltha is prepared from freshly calcined lime, a lump of which is slaked in wine and then pounded together with pork fat and figs, both of which are softening agents. Maltha is the most adhesive of substances and grows harder than stone. Anything that is treated with it is first thoroughly rubbed with olive oil."
(https://www.loebclassics.com/display/pliny_elder-natural_history/1938/pb_LCL419.143.xml?readMode=recto)

Hauk gives no better clue as to the actual proportions used than does Pliny, however.

A bit late of a follow-up to the conversation, but I was reading Hauk and came across the relevant passage.

Since the Romans had no equals for creating baths, aqueducts , cisterns deep in the center of their own homes, I figured on looking up their wisdom.
They used a paste called Opus signinum, which sounds pretty good as it was completely waterproof and could be made very smooth. Here is the Wiki's article on it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opus_signinum
My grandma's cistern, under her house had some sort of mortar (but I don't think it was that.)

Thanks for the reference, Kevin.

My cistern is still waiting in line for its rehab turn.

I still don’t know much about it, but it looks like a form of “lime plaster” which does grow harder over time … its my guess or memory or understanding that it’s somehow drawing carbon out of the air to add to its structure.

A pretty broad understanding, but a starting place for sure, and an old reference just adds to my confidence that I could rehab the existing cistern… foregoing weird plastics and a new concrete tank and excavation.  

The one plus to a new cistern of any description, is that in abandoning the current tank  I would have a “root cellar” big enough to shelter in if I needed to.

And thanks Cecile, for the reference!  I will take a look!

Thekla McDaniels wrote:Thanks for the reference, Kevin.

My cistern is still waiting in line for its rehab turn.

You're welcome.  I, too, often make haste slowly on my projects.  Perhaps "methodical", but possibly I am just diffuse and easily distracted!

You might also find something useful in the Hot Mix Mortars website, which seems to be associated with Nigel Copsey, who is one of the foremost modern experts on hot lime mortars for restoration and preservation work:
https://www.hotmixedmortars.com/

They have a page with excerpts from Pliny regarding Roman masonry practice, generally:
https://www.hotmixedmortars.com/pdf/documents/The_Complete_Works_of_Gaius_Plinius_Secundus_Delphi.pdf?i=1

Thekla, where are you with your water supply now.
I see you dont appear to be using the cistern, are you capturing rainwater yet?

Thekla McDaniels wrote:And thanks Cecile, for the reference!  I will take a look!

Also, from:
https://www.hotmixedmortars.com/?i=1
"Hot mixed air lime mortars, with or without small volumes of pozzolanic addition, were the ubiquitous lime mortar of traditional construction around the world, only falling from general use as the 20th century wore on, when the use of Portland cement or hybrid Portland cement and industrially produced dry hydrated air lime mortars displaced them from most building sites. This shift coincided with the growing disempowerment of masons and other crafts in the industry. Previously, mortar design had been the domain of the craftsmen, and wherever they were in the world, they chose to use hot mixed air lime mortars.

These mortars were the most economically made; they were quickly and efficiently prepared (by a variety of simple methods) and delivered mortars of eminent workability and usefulness. They enjoyed unparalleled water retentivity and excellent bond, and displayed maximum cohesiveness and adhesiveness."

Thanks Kevin, John and Cecile.

“Short” 🤣 answers:

I was wondering what the hot in hot mixed mortars was referring to, so I began to read one of the links.  I didn’t get that far before I noticed
“air” mortar, and something about construction above ground, and something else that may address my situation of the inside of a structure to store water…. All of which will require more than I can give the issue right now, however fascinated I am with the idea of an ancient material superior to modern, toxic ubiquitous options.

Then there’s “pozzolean” a term which apparently I can’t spell, and the autocorrect function has never heard of!  I think it might be akin to the additive “fly ash”….

The domestic water supply comes to my property in a pipe at very low pressure. The system in this region is that each user stores water in a cistern.  Each has a pressure pump and tank.  Long before I bought the property the pressure system failed.  The dole was removed and a meter installed.  My water is gravity flow, and not adequate to run a frog eye type sprinkler, though I can shower.  I think the cistern developed a crack even before that….

This place was not quality construction…. 🤣🤣🤣
Because the water system delivers enough water pressure to shower in, it’s “working”.

Last summer I got a predator safe goat shed built, and old barbed wire fences removed, and replaced with a boundary (to the pasture) mesh field fence built.  The house leveled and supports replaced.  

This summer the rotting deck has been removed, which uncovered a lot of rot in one of the walls…. framing totally replaced in that segment, and siding replaced.  We’re working on the next wall.  It didn't have rot, but had resident wasps by the thousands.  We’re in the process of getting the siding up there, too.
For the next section of siding, the whole west wall, I will need to order those replacement windows, and remove/cut back a hedge of 50 year old lilacs, and get a finished floor plan for rooms adjacent to that whole west wall of the house.

That will probably not be until the next building season, 2027.

For the rest of this year, I will be repairing the greenhouse so that it will “work”, and tending the 40 something new and very small trees.  Today that will be watering and applying grasshopper protection to a few more trees.
Sooooo, my time is pretty well occupied, especially when you add in the PT for my 3/4 century physical body🤣🤣🤣.

I would love to know about “hot” and “air” and “pozzolean” parts of the practices of ancient roman masons.  It will help me understand and plan for the upcoming phase of repair for my water system…. Which will have to include a pressure system that is protected from freezing.

If there aren’t simple answers to the vocabulary question's, then I am glad to know there is material available, and knowledgeable support standing by.  Thanks.

We have had 2+ weeks of smoke from various wild land fires.  We had stars last night and it is our first clear clean day.  It’s a very beautiful day here.

Thekla McDaniels wrote:Thanks Kevin, John and Cecile.

“Short” 🤣 answers:
I was wondering what the hot in hot mixed mortars was referring to, so I began to read one of the links.  I didn’t get that far before I noticed
“air” mortar, and something about construction above ground, and something else that may address my situation of the inside of a structure to store water…. All of which will require more than I can give the issue right now, however fascinated I am with the idea of an ancient material superior to modern, toxic ubiquitous options.
Then there’s “pozzolean” a term which apparently I can’t spell, and the autocorrect function has never heard of!  I think it might be akin to the additive “fly ash”….
I would love to know about “hot” and “air” and “pozzolean” parts of the practices of ancient roman masons.  It will help me understand and plan for the upcoming phase of repair for my water system…. Which will have to include a pressure system that is protected from freezing. If there aren’t simple answers to the vocabulary question's, then I am glad to know there is material available, and knowledgeable support standing by.  Thanks.

As far as protection from freezing, if you have a frostline that is deeper than your cistern, the best way to address that, now that the cistern is built, is to cover it with enough soil to place it lower than your frost line. Google can answer "frostline in [zip code , or city]
This is what I got from Google/AI. Remember that my real knowledge in these matters is extremely limited. You do have it right that "pozzolan" (no "e") seems to refer to volcanic ash, also pumice.
"AI Overview:                
Pozzolan powder is a supplementary cementitious material that reacts with calcium hydroxide in concrete or lime mortars.
When mixed with water, it produces additional cementitious compounds. This significantly increases strength, prevents cracking, and reduces moisture permeability. Pozzolan powders generally fall into two categories, each offering distinct advantages depending on your building and restoration needs:
Natural Pozzolans Volcanic Ash & Pumice:
These include classic Roman volcanic ash and ultrafine pumice like UltraPozz: Ultrafine Pumice Pozzolan (often around $11/2 lbs). They are ideal for high-end architectural precast and Glass Fiber Reinforced Concrete (GFRC).
Calcined Clays (Metakaolin): These thermally treated clays react very quickly, making them a popular choice for high-strength SCMs in Concrete: Natural Pozzolans and bright white concrete mixes.
Artificial & Glass Pozzolans Glass-Based Powders:
Fine powders manufactured from recycled post-industrial glass, such as those produced by Vitro Minerals, help mitigate Alkali Silica Reaction (ASR) while avoiding the gray tint of fly ash.
Fly Ash & Silica Fume: By-products from industrial processes that are added to lower the heat of hydration, drastically increasing density and resistance to chemical attacks.
Applications in Building:
When used in Portland cement, pozzolans typically replace 10% to 30% of the cement powder. For lime mortars, they enable the mortar to set hydraulically and resist dissolution in wet environments. (So they can set under water.) Products like Lancaster Lime Works Pozzolan (about $10-$15 per gallon) are specifically used in traditional lime putties. To read in-depth guides about incorporating these powders into historic or modern mixes, refer to the Building Conservation Directory."
This is their free, online directory (This appears to be a British site):
https://www.buildingconservation.com/books/bcd2025/index.html