Existing potable water cistern

Here’s my situation, I bought this rural acreage place where we do have domestic water taps.

The region has mostly had a dole system which delivered 10,000 gallons per month.  Water arrives in a trickle.  It takes 24 hours a day the whole month to receive your allotment.

People have cisterns and pressure tanks and pumps.  At some point, probably when the pressure tank failed, this place place I bought was switched to a meter, and the  cistern bypassed.  You get a little more water pressure than the dole when there is water, but not much at all when there are problems. Since 98% of users are on the dole system, they can easily get through an outage.

There’s evidence of pressure tank failure.  I have not been able to get the straight story on the history of this place.  ? Newcomer aversion disorder?🤣🤣🤣

Whether or not I get back on the dole system, I would like to store water and get a pressure system.

I am trying to assess the situation.  The cistern is concrete, buried, with about the top 1 foot above ground.  It is holding water, about 1/3 the depth of the tank.  The water level has been constant for the 8 months I have been here.

Today I filled it to the top.  Tomorrow and for awhile, I will keep my eye on the water level to see if it leaks.

If I need to seal it, what can I do?

I have read what I can find on the good old web.  Mostly Portland cement with a strange additive that is “approved for potable water”.

Permies, can we do better than this?  What did people do before duPont ushered  us into the era of “better living through chemistry”?

Tank footprint is a rectangle.  The thickness of the walls I did not measure, but will tomorrow, but ~ 8 inches thick.  Depth of the water: 58 inches.  Estimated inside dimensions 60 inches x 93.  Just in case any of this matters.  

“Human” hole cover for access.

I’m guessing the tank is 50 years old, as is the “hovel”.🤣

It’s a cold winter.  7000 feet elevation.  The ground freezes but I don’t know how deep.  There is evidence that there was a structure on top of the cistern… bolts poking up from the concrete perimeter.  A half burned tree next to it.

Ideally, the cistern holds water.  And I can build a structure above the tank, and maybe put the pressure tank and pump in the structure.

Does anyone have any ideas about considerations of shed (cob or cordwood), ways to add thermal mass, heat it passively, or make the shed big enough to have a mass heater in there for the really cold nights, and won’t the water in the cistern contribute to thermal mass?

Thanks for your help!

Thekla, this right down my alley, I have designed many of these systems in Australia.
I take it you are in a remote area with regard to services.
I designed and built these systems for "rural residential' areas that have 10 to 20 acre blocks
with odd larger along the line of the pipe line.
To reduce the cost of the  infrastructure , each property has a tank perhaps 20,000L which is filled mainly at night when most other users are asleep.

from  hydraulic grade line explained
The hydraulic grade line from :   In town water design, a hydraulic pressure line, often referred to as the Hydraulic Grade Line (HGL), is a crucial element in ensuring efficient and reliable water distribution.
The HGL represents the total energy head in the water, combining elevation and pressure head, and is used to determine the pressure at any point in the system.

The tank is sized so that they have enough for 24 hours.
Yours may be underground because of the frost.
Square cisterns sometimes leak at the corners.
I have some questions:
- Does the house get a supply directly from the tank?
- I expect it would have poor water pressure
- Is there power at the cistern?
- Do you collect rainwater
- Do you think the soil over the tank is actually insulating it?
- What is your depth of freezing in the area? Something I know little about.
I will say more about pressure pumps and bladders when I know more about your situation.

Thekla -

I am not an expert, by any means, but the Romans had several recipes for waterproofing components of water distribution systems, depending on what they were.  Some formulations were hydraulic (would cure under water) but many were quick lime based (sometimes hot mixed, sometimes slaked separately before mixing).

I usually read Vitruvius on Lacus Curtius, on the University of Chicago's website:

Book 2 discusses lime plasters a bit.  See especially chapter 6, which covers the use of what we term "pozzolans":
https://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Vitruvius/2*.html

Book 8 has, at the very end, a recipe for lining aqueduct conduits:
https://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Vitruvius/8*.html

Crushed or ground fired clay (e.g. from tiles or bricks) were used when making mortars for use in damp locations.  See, for example, this brief discussion from the Geopolymer Institute:
https://geopolymer.org/fichiers/gpcamp-2014/Davidovits%20-%20Geological%20origin%20of%20the%20reagents%20constituing%20the%20Roman%20mortar.pdf

Persians used a similar product called "sarooj", which was traditionally made by burning disks of clay in a fire made from the dried manure of an herbivorous animal.  The ashes and fired clay were then finely ground together.  The ashes would be caustic (probably containing potassium hydroxide, depending on what the critters had been eating).  The burnt clay and ash was then mixed with other ingredients to create the plaster, used to line qanats (underground aqueducts), waterproof yakhchals (ice houses or Persian refrigerators), etc.

Simone Swan used a plaster made with fermented prickly pear cactus pad juice, but I am not sure that was useful for conditions as wet as a cistern (maybe just to help shed rains from her Nubian arch adobe house).  As I recall, this traditional recipe came to her from the Mexican workmen she hired from south of the Rio Bravo, but I could be mis-remembering.

Tadelakt is a waterproof coating from North Africa.  It uses lime plaster and soap to basically create an on-purpose waterproof soap scum by ion exchange.  This is often used for waterproofing rammed earth and adobe walls or earth plasters, but I don't know if it can be used for cisterns with standing water.

George Hauk gives several recipes in his book "The Aqueduct of Nemausus".

The ancient Judeans and - especially - the Nabateans lined cisterns cut in porous rock with waterproofing plasters.  I presume these were lime-based, but I don't know that for certain.  These cisterns and tanks, along with diversion channels, made possible the regular Nabatean trading expeditions by storing up for the dry season the rain which fell during brief torrential desert cloudbursts.  Without the catchments, and the knowledge of where they were, the deserts routes would have been impassable.

All of the above predate modern Portland cement and "better living through chemistry".

I know that none of this is sufficient information on which to actually operate, but it may give you some lines of inquiry for recipes/solutions with long standing historical precedent.  Nearly all of the above (but not so the cactus juice version) rely on lime, either quick or slaked, for the waterproof properties.  Lime either came from roasted shells or from fired limestone.

There are also hydraulic geopolymer formulations.  Some of these resulted from attempts to recreate historic cements, while others have been developed de novo in modern times.  Though some are closer to "better living through chemistry", they are still arguably much more sustainable than Portland cement.

Again, I'm no expert, but this is where I'd start if I were in your shoes.

As for extracting from the locals "the rest of the story" on your new place - good luck!

Kevin

Kevin, your post is fabulous.
I will certainly read and study what you have said for a few days.
Lime is a great product.
We need to see if the cistern actually leaks first.

Here are photos

Thanks John and Kevin.  

The water level in the tank is down 2 inches.  ( in 24 hours)

This morning I didn’t have my tape with me, but my impression was that it was about the same level.

The tank’s construction is definitely   custom/diy.  The walls are 12 inches thick on the ends, and the side walls are west, a 6 inches thick wall, east the wall is 8 inches thick.  There was something written in the half century ago wet concrete.

There was, quite likely an outlet and an inlet, but neither is functional and I have no idea their locations.

I will keep watching the water level for drop, and rate of drop.

That is a gem!
It looks as if a timber bottom plate for a wall may have been bolted to the tank.
That may be a good place for a tank shed, insulated, with perhaps a globe to heat it and prevent freezing.

Where does the water come near to the tank or your house?

That tank is about 200 cub ft, which in Aussie is about  5600 litres
That is a good size.
Has the top been a recent addition?
This is a quality Grunfos pump and pressure tank system, but I would use a bigger tank say 25 Litres because
it prevents the pump starting when ever a tap is turned on.
It saves the pump and electricity.

John C Daley wrote:Kevin, your post is fabulous.
I will certainly read and study what you have said for a few days.
Lime is a great product.
We need to see if the cistern actually leaks first.

John -

Thank you for the kind words.  I've been contemplating my options for installing a cistern.

We're on town water here, though there is no shortage of surface water around, which could be made potable in a pinch, by one means or another.  But, we've had multiple water line breaks over the past few years, necessitating "boil water" advisories, most recently right after Christmas this past year.  There is an artesian spring about 2 miles away which has good potable water, so as a temporary measure, we can fill buckets or jugs from that.  That, however, is not a long term solution, even though that is the sole source of potable water for some local residents.  I think I'm going to construct a "bucket Berkey" filter - just buy the replacement filters and sight glass tap - so that I can filter whatever water is available, so that even if it's somewhat suspect, it can be made drinkable.

In the long run, though, I'd really like to install a cistern of some form or fashion, both for garden irrigation (metered chlorinated water isn't need for garden plants, and incurs a commensurate sewer fee, based on gallons used at the water meter) and for potable water.

I intend to build a timber framed garage/shop (2 car bays, one shop bay), the roof of which, when added to the catchment of the house roof, would be quite a significant area.  If I place the cistern underground, as is Thekla's, it will be unobtrusive, even if a fairly large volume (several thousand gallons, perhaps).  I have also acquired (for $20 from a garage sale!) a Hitzer/Heller-Aller force pump, a double acting hand pitcher pump which can pump water up to a gravity tank; the new rod stuffing and replacement leathers cost more than this, even before shipping.  But, it has a brass tube cylinder, and is built to be serviced in perpetuity, unlike the lesser pitcher pumps which are ubiquitous commodity items in hardware stores.

The quick and dirty way of installing a cistern is to use a plastic water tank from the Tractor Supply, but that may not be durable, and of course there is the issue of the plastic.

I'd considered an EPDM pond liner bladder, inside a used shipping container.  The plywood floor could be removed, and it could be lowered into a hole upside down, with the sides braced by struts to prevent soil pressure or hydrostatic water pressure from pushing them inward.  This could be below grade inside a greenhouse, with walk planks over.  But, the long term durability of the steel sea can is questionable when in contact with the soil, and the EPDM liner would need to be replaced periodically.  Cheap at the outset, but probably not so in the long run.  I dislike doing things twice.

So, something constructed along more traditional lines seems a better choice.  I'm thinking that the cistern could be constructed under part or all of the shop, with a structural tile vault as a cistern cover and shop floor, or similarly under an outside patio area.  Maybe a cellar under the remaining portion of the shop.

This is all as yet theoretical, and I'm still weighing my options.  But, I've been thinking about it quite a bit, so that I at least make provision for the future installation when the garage goes up.

Kevin

John C Daley wrote:That is a gem!
It looks as if a timber bottom plate for a wall may have been bolted to the tank.
That may be a good place for a tank shed, insulated, with perhaps a globe to heat it and prevent freezing.

Where does the water come near to the tank or your house?

Hi John, I have no idea what a timber bottom plate is!  Can you tell me, if it is something I need to know!

A globe being a light bulb?

Water source would be a water line from the domestic water company of which I am a shareholder.  I think the supply line used to be plumbed directly to the cistern.  There is a float (guess it was a float valve in the past).

The cistern’s long axis is north south.  The supply line is somewhere south of the cistern on the neighbor’s property… as is my water meter.

There was no link to the pressure system you mentioned, but that’s not my current project.  I had intended to use a 40 gallon - ish sized pressure tank.  I have heard that sizing the pressure tank appropriate to the system is important, but don’t know anything about that yet either.  (I have a wealth of things I need to learn about😊).

Seems like you might know what the important considerations are in pressure tank to projected system use.  Can you direct me or educate me?  One thing I intend to do with the water I want to store is water my garden, trees, and stock.  The water pressure in the supply line is not adequate to run a simple frog eye sprinkler.🤣

Thanks

Kevin, I have heard of tadelakt, but didn’t know about the soap and ?ion exchange did you say?

From what I understand you can waterproof a cob bathtub or shower with it.  But as you say, the constant water pressure might be beyond its capabilities!

I haven’t read the material you posted yet!  But the links are here for me when I am ready!

If my tank only loses an inch every 12 hours, it might not be worth the effort to waterproof the inside.

I had two concrete cisterns at an old place I had, built in the 1930s I believe.  One for irrigation water, one for house water.  The house water cistern had been long abandoned when I was there, but the irrigation tank was sound.
Seems like these old concrete tanks -if uncracked- hold water just fine😊!

Thanks for your help

I am happy to help both of you, its what I do as a semi retired Civil Engineer.
Kevin

The quick and dirty way of installing a cistern is to use a plastic water tank from the Tractor Supply, but that may not be durable, and of course there is the issue of the plastic.

The issue of problems with plastic has been dealt with years ago in Australia, I assume it has in North America, the plastic liner you mentioned will be similar material.
Kevin, what is the issue of having an unobtrusive cistern?
That pump was a good find
Where do you live, is frost a problem?
Do you have a large amount of land?
Thekla, can I ask about your name, it intrigues  me?

A globe being a light bulb?

yes they can be used to heat chickens and water tanks in enclosed areas if need be.
Bottom plate - when building a stud  or stick wall the  frame has top and bottom plates of say 4x2 inch timber and studs going upwards 4 x 11/2 inch.
Pipe sizing is critical What size is or was it from the meter?
How far between the cistern and the meter?
A 44 gal pressure tank is enormous what are you calling a 'pressure' tank?
Does it have a rubber liner?
What is you actual project at the moment?

Thekla McDaniels wrote:Kevin, I have heard of tadelakt, but didn’t know about the soap and ?ion exchange did you say?

Thekla -

The basic chemical reaction can be seen here, wherein free calcium ions are swapped into the compound in place of sodium ions
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tadelakt#Constituents_and_chemistry

As I said, I am far from expert, and it's been a long time since high school chemistry class.  I mostly know nearly enough to be dangerous, so do your own research.  Very likely, someone on these forums has actual hands-on experience with tadelakt, and with maintaining a waterproof surface over the long run.

Kevin

John C Daley wrote:
Pipe sizing is critical What size is or was it from the meter?
How far between the cistern and the meter?
A 44 gal pressure tank is enormous what are you calling a 'pressure' tank?
Does it have a rubber liner?
What is you actual project at the moment?

Hi John,
Whether the issues with plastic have been resolved is unclear in North America 🤣.  So many plastics have been declared miraculous and or safe, only to have it become clear they aren’t safe, then here comes a new miraculous plastic and oops!  That one’s an endocrine disruptor etc ad infinitum.  So I conclude that when it comes to plastics, safety is in the eyes of the beholder, just like beauty😊


Thekla was my grandmother’s name. I don’t know more about it than that.

Regarding my abandoned / bypassed cistern, I guess I haven’t made myself clear, I don’t know anything about the prior situation.  My water meter is on my neighbor’s property.  Land owners are not allowed to open the meter housing.  I don’t know the location.  I can ask and the neighbor would show me, but at this point🤷🏻‍♀️ I have no need.  

The cistern exists.  I recognized that it might be a cistern and am investigating.  

Can you explain to me the parameters involved in supply pipe diameter and distance from meter?  The current rate of flow is adequate.  I am not looking to increase the rate of flow.  What I want to do is find a way to store the water, and pressurize it so I can run a sprinkler, water a garden, fill a stock tank.  I am only allowed 10,000 gallons a month.  More water faster would not change my situation.

To me a pressure tank holds water that a pump has pumped in.  I think you set the pressure you want to maintain, the pump tries to maintain the pressure.  My last place had a slow well.  There was a tank in a shed.  The tank was about 5 feet high, about 18 to 24 inches diameter.  That was where the pressurized water waited for me to turn the shower on, or the hose.

Can you explain to me the parameters involved in sizing a pressure tank?  If you think I don’t have proper understanding of “pressure tank” maybe you could inform me.

At this point I am asking what I need to know, and why.  I am not trying to install and plumb a system.  If you can tell me what I need to know as I move through the process of restoring a workable domestic water system I would really appreciate it.  

Water level is unchanged from yesterday evening.

Kevin, that’s a marvelous explanation, thank you!  

I am half a century beyond college chemistry class, so we can be dangerous together.

Maybe when I get everything else done I can experiment with tadelakt.  Seems like it should be included on permies

Right moving on.
1 assuming you can get the water from the meter to the cistern, perhaps with a float valve to stop flow if the cistern is full.
2  Again assuming you will fit a pump above the cistern you will need a foot valve to prevent water draining out of the pump
3 then a suction pipe up to the pump
4 On the discharge point of the pump you may need a fitting to allow priming of the pump, some have them incorporated
5 Then a ball valve on the discharge end so when priming the water does not flow down to your house
6 From the other side of that ball a pipe goes to the pressure tank.

If you fit a submersible pump inside the tank fittings are a bit different, but that advise can be obtained from the pump supplier.

Pressure tank installation and explanation

Sizing the pressure pipeline and details of how to read the pressure loss charts.
You will need to consider these figures before you use the charts
Flow rate required, length of pipe run, cistern to irrigation area or house.
Sizing the pressure tank
Relevant details
Before beginning the process of sizing a tank, there are a few important important input data points to know in order to properly size a pressure tank:
Flow Rate
Cut-in/Cut-out Pressure
Target Run Time
A general rule of thumb, that most manufacturers suggest, is a run time of less than one minute if the horsepower is less than 1HP.
If the motor is over 1HP, then a good guideline to follow, is a run-time of 2 minutes or more.
Always confirm this, with your tank manufacturer of choice, as guidelines can vary.

Unchanged water level shows it is prbally not leaking which is great.

Yes, thank you John.

And incase this interests you or anyone else, here’s a link to my domestic water company history.

It’s really a remarkable accomplishment to have gotten water out onto this high elevation western desert mesa.  And a window on water “scarcity” in the west of the USA, where water is said to be owned, even if it originates elsewhere.

We’re an ingenius lot, humanity, possibly sometimes more than is “good” for us.🤣🤣

https://fruitlanddomesticwater.weebly.com/company-history.html

Thekla is a girl's name of Greek origin meaning "God's glory". It's a short form of Theokleia, also meaning "glory of God".
The name is particularly associated with Saint Thecla, a 1st-century Christian martyr.
Thekla, I read about your water supply company, it is fascinating/
I will copy the rules for future use.
\
I notice your supply pressure is 20psi townwater is about 60psi, so your pipes will need to be bigger than normal.

I’m not your basic cistern challenged person and maybe am too naive to offer advice here so I will simply say that I love my cistern. Our well, fed by water seeping through rock, went from five gallons per minute to two. Given problems such as interrupted showers I paid to have an eighteen hundred gallon cistern installed, buried at a depth less than that of my earth sheltered home so water comes downhill, assisted by a pump, to two pressure tanks. The only time that I have run out of water was when I foolishly left a forgotten garden hose running. The cistern refilled overnight.

I have since also installed a hand pump that will bring water from the cistern to the pressure tanks in case of power failure. (Gravity is not adequate to do this n our situation.) The beautiful red hand pump probably cost more than the cistern, but long and short, if you decide to start from scratch this was a good way, for me, to go.

Oh!  Great idea, a hand pump!  I really don’t like to depend on “conventional” solutions.  It’s like having the means to cook and heat the house if the power goes off, the means to grind grain by hand.  I just hadn’t thought of the hand pump.

Thanks!

Thank you everyone for your information

Iwas talking with my neighbor this evening about my cistern idea

I have a 1960s small 675 SQ ft hemlock house jacked onto 7' cinder blocks and foundation in the mid 70s when the owner cut the main beam to put stairs where he wanted them. It now sits on several house jacks, but there's a portion of sagging roof, and down roof from that, a damaged sill on the south side.

I had a neighbor who has since flipped his house, with experience in structural repairs tell me what I really could use is a wall (to support my saggy roof from) and ideally replace a section 8x8 but fix it up nicely and put in greenhouse roofing panels (because the lot south of mine has conifers that block my winter sun rays)

I had thought that if I am to have a cinder block wall, and I have limited water at times, (and the friend I was talking to tonight already said that solution is a big tank) I've been thinking about installing a hollow double walled support structure inside the house where I can hope freezing will never be a problem

In my situation I am actually okay with certified potable better living through chemistry... the biggest concern is no leaking, plus I can use this water for laundry and keep what is coming from the well as my primary potable supply.

I figured I could build this structure long before I get to attacking the saggy roof, and in the meantime, I can better repair the structural issues in the basement, which will help support the perpendicular beam supporting the trusses.

Keep in mind this is a small almost square house (meaning 27x25 ish but also meaning it lacks right angles

When I am finished, the main floor 8x8 section of flooring between this wall and the exterior wall will be removed and the sun can shine right down onto the cement basement slab

Anyway, any advice or comments about my foolish dreams are welcome!

Roberta, I am under the understanding that my pie which is about to pass expiration date is now steaming hot 😂

Ra,
I think it’s a good idea to get a cistern into the lower floor of your house.  Is it a basement?  Basements are the best!  I’m sorry I don’t have one at this place, but perhaps I will dig a root cellar somewhere, but that’ll be a few years off.

Have you gone far enough to decide what you want to build  your water storage vessel out of, or if you’ll purchase ready made?

If I were starting from scratch, I think I would look into a concrete tank like are commonly used for septic systems, or were a few decades back.  I think they make a lot of septic systems nowadays with plastic tanks.

I have some thoughts but the rest I don't have a clear idea what would be best.

The roof is one of your typical 4-12=13 pitch each side and the problem wall is downhill from the roof slope (of course, where changes like a door are best not made!) and I condemned the door when I bought the place really cheap for cash, 20 years ago, and it hasn't leaked in 10 years.

The structural support would start right at the basement slab and be made of concrete.

From that point im not sure.

would sections of silos be appropriate or too heavy to move into place (I am okay with opening up the wall down to the cinder blocks and then a ramp into the basement) but is that too dangerous? I have no idea about circular sections of concrete. Should I build a structural wall enclosing it afterwards (thermal mass being a good thing) or is that overkill...

Do I forget about planning on stacking functions and simply install a cistern...

With regards to my roof, I would be replacing a section of roofing tar paper over tongue and groove 5/8" chipboard with a super thick plastic:

One roofing product I've looked into made in Edmonton Alberta is Polycarbonate Panel 16mm Multiwall Wall Clear as five ply (they have three ply as well, and cross cross the five ply making ten ply R14 and perhaps an insulated blanket on pulleys for the coldest mid winter nights and cloudy days.

The house is in Quebec in the Gatineau mountains at 650' where orchids grow, so it's quite wet and there's a lot of rain currently collected in about 20 barrels)

Feel free to tell me I'm nuts! 😂

I don’t think you’re crazy, just in the early phases of trying to figure out if you can achieve a particular goal.

I am not your resource though.  I am in the same situation, early phases of trying to figure something out.

Good luck to both of us😀

Kevin: I think I'm going to construct a "bucket Berkey" filter - just buy the replacement filters and sight glass tap - so that I can filter whatever water is available, so that even if it's somewhat suspect, it can be made drinkable.

Kevin,
You might want to take a look at my favorite off-grid guru's DIY Berkey water filter:  

Well, Thekla, it does sound like this 'allotment' of water is not suiting you.
You suspect the cistern is at least 50 yrs old, and if it is made of concrete, you might look at a replacement. If there is a manhole for access, which was common practice, you might be able to empty it to get a sneak view. That might also tell you what they used then to waterproof the cistern.
First, you might want to ask Mr. Google: "what is the  frost  depth in... [the closest town to you]. They actually have maps in WI, and I suspect in Colorado as well.
Cisterns have been in use for millennia: My grandma had one [we are talking pre-WWI]. She really cherished it because she didn't have to pay for water which, in France, even at the time was quite pricey.
Her neighbors all had wells like what they now have in National Parks, where you must pump vigorously for a minute or so before the water comes, and then the pump loses its prime and the next person has to also pump vigorously for a minute or so. [That's to avoid the pump freezing.]
Because grandma had one that was under her house, she could pump water directly at her sink in the kitchen, and of course, she didn't have to worry about the frostline. She had a basement, and although I was to young to figure out how it was serviced, I'm not sure how that was done.
I can remember a manhole in 2 pieces, with a pole down the middle that brought the water up. The rainfall was adequate, although there were dry years. I don't think she had to collect rainwater though, which might be your case.
Again, ask Mr. Google if you are not sure, how much water you can expect where you live. If it is not adequate, as I suppose, you may have to collect rainwater and filter it well before it reaches the cistern..
Other than that, my knowledge is from Roman times. This long post from Quora may help:
"Historic cisterns, used for collecting and storing rainwater or other sources of water, required careful maintenance to keep them clean and safe for use. Here are some common practices and considerations regarding their cleanliness and potential issues with mold or contaminants:
Maintenance Practices
Regular Cleaning:
- Cisterns were often drained and cleaned periodically. This involved removing sediment, debris, and any organic material that could promote bacterial growth.
- Workers would scrub the walls and bottom of the cistern using brushes and sometimes a mixture of water and vinegar to help disinfect.
Covering:
- Many cisterns were covered to prevent debris from falling in and to limit light exposure, which can promote algae growth. Covers also helped reduce evaporation and contamination from animals.
Filtration:
- Some systems included filters made from sand or gravel to help remove particulates before water entered the cistern.
Water Source Management:
- Ensuring that the water collected was clean to begin with was crucial. This might involve directing water runoff from clean surfaces and avoiding areas with potential contaminants.
Issues with Mold and Contaminants
Mold Growth:
- Mold could grow in damp environments, especially if organic material was present. Regular cleaning and maintenance were essential to minimize this risk.
Bacterial Contamination:
- If cisterns were not properly maintained, they could harbor bacteria, including pathogens that could cause illness. The presence of stagnant water, especially in warmer climates, exacerbated this issue.
Sediment Accumulation:
- Over time, sediment could build up at the bottom of the cistern, which could harbor contaminants and lead to foul odors or poor water quality.
Water Quality Testing:
- In some cultures, water quality was tested or monitored to ensure it was safe for consumption. This could involve visual inspections or more formal testing methods.
Conclusion
While historic cisterns provided a vital source of water, their maintenance was crucial to prevent issues with mold and contamination. Regular cleaning, proper covering, and careful management of water sources were key practices to ensure the water remained safe for use.
This site may also help: https://ssconcretepolishing.com/waterproofing-material-for-concrete/#:~:text=The%20best%20waterproofing%20materials%20for,sealants%2C%20and%20PVC%20waterproofing%20membranes.

It's all good Thelka: your questions had me trying to verbalize because I think in images.

Your questions really helped me.

And being raised on Monty Python and Fawlty towers, I'm good with being called crazy anyway! 😂 But thanks for encouraging me!

Cimarron Layne wrote:
You might want to take a look at my favorite off-grid guru's DIY Berkey water filter: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjGxUAOrkrM

That's brilliant!

I knew there was a reason why I hadn't yet thrown out the 2nd largest cheap stainless corn pot I rescued from my son's trash and flew down south with me a month ago, only to find it really does leak and the water all over the bathroom floor wasn't just wicking!

I've been planning on building one of these for a while but didn't want to use plastic buckets.

Ra, I am having trouble understanding your problem.
Can you help with some photos please?

hemlock house jacked onto 7' cinder blocks

7 foot cinder blocks are big, do you mean 7 inch blocks?
I have not heard of hemlock, "Hemlock that has a smooth grain, however, is very durable.
It's resistant to wear and tear, which makes it ideal for parts of buildings that experience a lot of traffic.
This makes it a common choice for structures (especially in the farming industry) and a range of other uses."

John C Daley wrote:
Kevin, what is the issue of having an unobtrusive cistern?
That pump was a good find
Where do you live, is frost a problem?
Do you have a large amount of land?

John -

I'd prepared a lengthier response, but cut it down to a more manageable size (!).

Oh yes, the pump was a good find.  Providential, even.

We currently have a 100 foot x 100 foot (double) town lot.  If I can acquire the vacant and somewhat overgrown adjacent lot, then we would have a total of 100 foot X 150 foot contiguous plot.  So, depending on your frame of reference, it might or might not be a "large" amount of land.

There are several reasons for "unobtrusive" and below grade.  Not least, the rather small town lot.  Stacking vertically will permit more functions within the same nominal ground plan, and water being dense, it's just easier to store it down low where the support (ground) is.  And, as you mentioned, there is the possibility of freezing, which can be somewhat mitigated by earth sheltering.

I wouldn't consider frost a problem, per se, but this is a cold temperate climate - we're north of 45 degrees - though certainly not as challenging a climate as faced by some of the other participants on this forum.  If you plan for it properly, frost isn't a problem, but if you don't plan for it, then it will definitely be a problem.  As I recall, footers for traditional foundations must be 42" deep (I could be misremembering, but that seems like the right figure).  Most houses have full basements, because it hardly costs more to provide a full basement than to sink the footers to the required depth in a perimeter trench.  Water mains buried between 6 and 8 feet deep beneath roads can sometimes freeze in a cold winter, as can sewer lines, because the insulating snow cover is scraped off when the roads are plowed.  With good snow cover, the ground may not actually be frozen most of the winter.  If it gets cold for a prolonged period of time before there is good snow cover, however, that will lead to a deep frost line.  That's maybe a one year in ten occurrence, at least of late, but planning for it is prudent.

Kevin

Losing 2 inches per day remains constant.

Now the evening of the 10th I have 12 inches between the water and the top of the tank.

My rough figures tell me that is a loss of 50 gallons per day.

I can live with that!

I assume the water goes into the soil somewhere adjacent to the cistetn… more soil microbiology!  

So what are your plans?

Saluti Tutti,

Coffe break in the shade, rather sunny and the beginning of the week required full on woodstove, that’s another story.

Water:
all features requiring water were built north face of this place, which can have serious freezing potential, though not in recent years.
Installing pipes to outside containers didn’t feel like a sensible option.
Like other contributors, there are pots or bowls to catch grey water, easily emptied by leaving on window ledge to avoid extraneous carrying.
Shower water goes down the plughole to at least rinse existing plumbing and sewage pipes.
And yes, there are only composting toilets.

Being curiuos I discovered a fabulous cistern, fantastically brick lined, jolly deep as I don’t have a rope long enough to hit the bottom, near the house.
It is a cistern not a well, apparently a not uncommon feature in these parts.
Advice given by a Fountain person and a Well person: best not to add water to a well, it could chase the water away.
Lots of rain water from rooves goes there.
Then I came upon a very ancient sceptic tank which gets fed water from a roof, via a bathtub full of cuttings, including willow.
The water is used on woody perennials, with an electric pump.
Nearly managed to get hold of a metal old style hand pump.
There might be a hose avalable, type used to syphon whatever. It looks like medical equpment.

A well was what my granny used to keep food cool and away from predators.
I always found the delicious butter.

On a roll here, sorry!!!
Cleaning water:
A French medical doctor, Jade Allegre, swears by clay.
She uses it on and in people who need medical attention.
Amazing story:
she was with a team of doctors in Central Africa, cholera victims being literally chucked in a lake, principal source of water.
The doctors had to use the lake water for all needs including drinking.
They cleaned the water with local clay and nobody was sick.
I have used clay and charcoal on occasion.

Tadelakt -
there many people of North African origin locally. They use tadelakt and advise that it requires an awful lot of loving effort to work the soap or oil into the plaster, using a circular movement with a stone, great for repetitive strain injury, possibly.

Thank you for all the inspiring posts, a treasure trove.

I just found out that glow-worms eat snails; had to put that in as this is gastropod heaven.

Bountiful blessings
M-H

Thekla McDaniels wrote:My rough figures tell me that is a loss of 50 gallons per day.

I can live with that!

I assume the water goes into the soil somewhere adjacent to the cistetn… more soil microbiology!  

That's approximately our total usage for two people, one cat, house plants and (in season) garden watering.  Seems a non-trivial amount to be losing each day, but given your "dole" system (constant volume supply), presumably billed at a flat rate,  the immediate financial incentive may not be there to remedy the leak(s).

If you decide to tackle that problem in the future, you might consider borrowing a clean stock tank from a neighbor, temporarily, into which you can pump out the cistern and then divert the water supply.  That would allow you to gain access to the bottom of the cistern to clean it out and re-plaster the inside.

It seems to me that 50 gallons per day would water a lot of growies on a trickle system, so it may be worth pursuing, once you get on your feet at this new place.

OP says there may have been inlet and outlet piping from the cistern, but locations are unknown. Since the cistern has always had water, they have probably not inspected the bottom for an outlet.

A bottom outlet is a nice thing, but may not have been a feature in an older cistern (when pumps were new-fangled gadgets). If there IS an outlet, it could be where the water goes - i.e. not a leak in the cistern wall as such. The outlet could be plugged and the cistern level could be monitored further. Maybe find a local scuba diver?

Having two cisterns is nice. You can empty one and do maintenance while still having a water supply in the other cistern. If you will depend on cistern water, two is almost essential.

I like the idea of two cisterns.

Before I filled the tank, it held a half a tank - roughly- of water.  It had sat half full for a very long time.  I think that rules out a leaky drain.

Kevin, I salute you and all the people who are water thrifty, what ever the motivation.  I have lived through major droughts in arid regions.  In fact I have never lived in other than arid conditions. In some situations lasting months, I have hand carried or hauled every drop I have used or my goats have drunk.  I value water.

I want to share the context of this situation where I could live with a “loss” of 50 gallons per day into my soil.

In this arid region, people speak of “filling the sponge.”  Another common expression is “the best place to store water is in the soil”.  Water goes into the soil where it works many miracles, and supports diverse life forms.

It may seem that the idea I could live with a “loss” of 50 gallons a day indicates that I am wasteful with water, and maybe have no regard for the precious nature of water.

Western slope of Colorado is part of the headwaters of the Colorado River.  Water is a sensitive topic here.  Metropolises on the east side of the Rockies divert the would be Pacific bound water to supply new suburbs.  Las Vegas Nevada, Phoenix Arizona and Los Angeles California consider themselves “the lower Colorado basin “. They think it’s “their” water.  An agreement of sorts was reached in 1922, allocating various amounts of water to various stakeholders.  The provisions of that agreement have never been followed.

In Colorado, we are not allowed to catch rainwater!  It is considered to belong to down stream users.  They plan to build new subdivisions and supply them with water from the Colorado.  The Colorado River is already over allocated.  

Water is seen as a single use item by many.

All the irrigation water that arrives on my property is destined to soak into the soil.  All of the domestic water has the same destination.  Some of it passes through my house on the way to the soil.  I do not use compounds on my property that are not biodegradable, or in any way questionable.  

I consider my role in relation to this property as custodial.  It’s on loan from the future.  How could I, an ephemeral being, own a piece of the planet we hope is eternal?  Silly idea!  My responsibility is to let it pass to others in good condition.  It’s already in a lot better shape than when I bought it less than a year ago.

The soil will benefit by moisture to re-establish a healthy soil food web.  It takes more water to establish the flourishing biocommunity I seek than to maintain it.  The water rights I have purchased are enough to maintain an established community.  It will be a lengthy process to get it all established.  That’s what is left in life of interest to me.

So, the 50 gallons a day, the 1500 gallons a month, it’s going into the soil, supporting organisms.  I think that is as legitimate as washing a car 1000 miles distant, or watering a golf course. 🤷🏻‍♀️. If I established a leak proof cistern, that would not change how much water I used, nor where it ended up.  Right now there is an evergreen tree which is probably alive only because of the cooling effect of the partially filled cistern.  That tree will benefit from the future leakage as will the other plants there.

The vegetation I intend to establish will support the soil community.  It will support the few animals I will have, to help with establishing the bio community.  It will feed me and my friends and neighbors.  It will support insects, reptiles and amphibians, prairie dogs, eagles, meadowlarks, crows & other birds, bobcats and coyotes. It will increase the soil carbon, it will convert CO2 to oxygen.  I consider that use of water legitimate.

Also, vegetation will contribute to the localized small water cycle.  If you could mark a water molecule you might track it from the snow on the mountain above, down the stream to the irrigation system to my place, into the ground, into a plant, into a goat, out as urine, into the soil, into a plant, into the air, into a cloud over the mountains from where it might fall again…. Water evaporating is not water wasted, it is water being recycled.  Water used, unless it is contaminated by  some toxic substance will be used and used again.

I have paid for my 6 acres.  I have paid for the water rights and I pay again for the water delivered.  Furrow irrigation is labor intensive, and does not require the manufacture or distribution of plastics.

So, I have paid and paid and paid again for the privilege of being here and working hard in this beautiful location, marginal housing, and harsh climate in my old age, working hard to do something that is beautiful & meaningful to me,  constructive & responsible as a member of earth’s biosphere.

I fail to see the logic of the expense and labor and resource expenditure of capturing 50 gallons a day, only to have more control over where and when I bring it into contact with the soil.  I fail to see the logic of sending the water downstream to be utilized elsewhere where it potentially may not be used to broadly support life as my use does.

Cimarron Layne wrote:

Kevin,
You might want to take a look at my favorite off-grid guru's DIY Berkey water filter:  

Thanks for the link!  That may have been the video that inspired me, though I have also seen a video which uses 2 plastic food grade buckets to make a quick-and-dirty version.

I have one of the very thin stainless steel stock pots, bought cheaply from a thrift store, and a round pizza baking pan.  My thought is that I can skewer the pizza pan, more or less concentric to the pot, using the threaded ends of the filters to secure.  The larger diameter pizza pan can perch on a variety of sizes of catchment vessels (buckets, pots, crocks, large funnels, etc.).  If the storage vessel is very large, it may require multiple fillings of the stock pot, but that's OK.  A big stainless ladle will allow drinking water to be dipped out.

One catchment vessel (perhaps another stock pot, as seen in the video) can have the sight glass style spigot for ease of dispensing - though that ruins the vessel for any other purpose.

Does anyone have a preference for brand/type of filter?  I presume the coconut charcoal filters are better at removing unwanted chemistry, whereas the ceramic filters are probably better at filtering out small biological contaminants (virions and bacteria).  However, actual performance specs, irrespective of brand, seem to be nonexistent.  Or, I just haven't found them.

Hemlock is a conifer, looks kind of like cedar, used in the eastern U.S. historically in barn construction because horses won't chew it. Western hemlock is a large northwest rain forest type tree, quite tall, 60-70 meters+, typically no branches for the first 30 meters. Building lumber as well.  

Bentonite clay, historically mined in Wyoming I believe, is used out West to seal ponds and cisterns. Food safe, works well. My primary experience is using clay to viscosify well drilling fluid.
A product of prehistoric volcanic activity, bentonite's card deck type layers separate easily, swelling the clay volume drastically when exposed to water. Available in chip/chunk form could be used to seal bottom without draining the tank first.

We have a cistern, fed by ground seep/water. 15ft deep, 4ft diameter. That, my friends, was a pretty serious hand project in our glacier rock soil, when dug in the early 70's. Cased with culvert to a depth of 10-11ft. Open soil below. Oldtimers here used it with a handpump and a small electric setup. Full to near top in Spring, drops to a depth of 6-8 ft of water or so later in the year. We do nothing to manage it, except I have started to fill the muddy bottom with rock provide a little cleaner water. Needs  much better cover, mice occasionally drown in it. I intend to use it with an pump setup to provide water to the house. Covered with heavy snow, the cistern does not freeze as far as I know down to -35C.
Our house was  plumbed in the late 80's but the freshwater well drilled at that time is arsenic contaminated, so we use lake/surface water as I have described elsewhere.
If your needs are modest, then a solar/D.C. RV type pump is a simple off-grid type alternative to the heavier load drawn by the typical and more complicated A.C. pump/pressure tank system.
FWIW - your benevolent Colorado overlords 'permit' you to catch and retain up to 110 gallons of rainwater from your roof only for purposes other than water inside your house. More under certain circumstances. DYOR and with that, do what you will.

Interesting, Tommy!  Could your hand dug spring fed water source be considered a well?

Sure, the most basic sort.
Provincial laws around water here are different. Surface water for domestic use is not heavily regulated. Drilled wells, they now want registered/regulated for anything other than single family domestic use. We currently water our greenhouses/gardens/animals/ourselves with surface water. Woodstove melted snow, lake, rainfall. My cistern is a grey area, I guess.
The water laws are aimed at controlling high volume users down in the heavily populated southern part of the province, i.e. the Fraser Valley, but apply to all, my belief.

Don't know where you are at, or what your opinions are, but I drilled a lot of gas wells in the Piceance years ago, DeBeque/Rifle/Parachute.
Makes me a bad person, I suppose.

We filter our drinking water with a Berkey. Excellent product, but like everything else after the covid terror, price of filters has gone way up.

I would capture all the rainwater I could get away with in your situation, spread it where most beneficial to you and your family.
Las Vegas and California have no interest in slowing the spread of their cities, let them sort out their water problems on their own. They will, at some point come creeping over the mountains and out into the desert to tap the aquifers our southern home is perched on, guaranteed. Las Vegas has purchased land in northern Nevada, trying to control the fossil water so abundant here. T.Boone Picken's wife has a 'wild horsey sanctuary' up around Wells, NV. She got federal money to help her out. My belief is that like the rest of Mr. Pickens vast land holdings, horseys and windfarms are place holders for the real reason. Water rights. Water is the next big fight out west. You would be saddened to know how much of critical Western water is controlled by large commercial interests in far away places.