• Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic
permaculture forums growies critters building homesteading energy monies kitchen purity ungarbage community wilderness fiber arts art permaculture artisans regional education skip experiences global resources cider press projects digital market permies.com private forums all forums
this forum made possible by our volunteer staff, including ...
master stewards:
  • Anne Miller
  • Pearl Sutton
  • Nicole Alderman
stewards:
  • Mike Haasl
  • r ranson
  • paul wheaton
master gardeners:
  • jordan barton
  • John F Dean
  • Rob Lineberger
  • Carla Burke
  • Jay Angler
gardeners:
  • Greg Martin
  • Ash Jackson
  • Jordan Holland

wofati plus a rocket mass heater

 
pollinator
Posts: 490
Location: Englehart, Ontario, Canada
2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Ernie wrote:

nice easy experiment is to take a couple pieces of wood put one in a zip lock and the other next to it on the counter and see which one decays faster. (dont cheat let both bits of wood sit out for a week so the contamination and moisture are the same) if you want another variable put another bit of wood in a baggy and a soda straw seal up the baggy around the soda straw so the only way the wood gets air is through the straw.  or you can go down to the local wooden boat yard and talk to the folks about rot problems in wood boats. what you are going to hear is lots and lots about air flow and moisture exchange. 

hmm wonder why? might be cause molds dont like airflow and they dont like dry. come to think of it carbon monoxide dont like air flow either nor do the several hundred gasses that come out of the materials used in the modern home. if they cant accumulate in a nice dead zone your exposure risk goes down.



The experiment you talk about doesn't model a house.  Too unrealistic.  When warm moist air hits a colder surface you get condensation, this is what happens with uncontrolled air infiltration/exit.  The moisture then infiltrates your insulation/wall spaces where there is little airflow and you get mold.  The disaster stories you talk of are unfortunately all too common, they are examples of how to do it wrong, and as with anything there are a lot more ways to do it wrong than there are to do it right!  I am not against air movement, it is NECESSARY for a healthy house and must be well distributed, no dead zones.  The only point we are really disagreeing on is how the air gets into your house and out.  Done right what I am putting forward is more efficient and has less problems, done wrong it is far more harmful.  Your way is less efficient with respect to energy and more likely to result in minor problems like drafts but FAR LESS likely to result in major problems and it is unlikely they would be as severe.  I am not unaware of the pro's and cons.

Just so you know I have assisted in the construction of 2 post and beam/straw bail infill houses, one of which had a massive Russian stove (another type of thermal mass heater) and an underground house incorporating some of the idea's of wofati and some earthship concepts as well as numerous stick frame houses (I was a roofer in a previous life).  Guess why I am not planning to build stick frame!  I've also built several different types of wood stove, wood gasifiers and chunkers.  Not really happy with most of the results.  RMH follows the KISS rule, based on what I have done it looks like a very do-able idea.  I understand your background as well, read your website and blogs and will be getting the book.  That last indicates a high degree of respect for your idea's, though not unquestioning.  In a sealed house HVAC is necessary unless you have something like a heat chimney cupola and a way to control that, never been in one that had air overpressure or partial vacuum so high as to blow open doors though, that would be something to see.

 
gardener
Posts: 791
Location: Tonasket washington
44
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
not arguing the point, rather demonstrating the concept. and if you think the experiment through it is very much like a house in modern times. if you want the extreme temp changes and meetings of heat and cold put the experiment on a window sill.

or take a bit more time and build three card board houses wrap one on plastic except for the doors and windows. paint one (house paint) except the roof which you will need to wax to simulate the tar and paper under the shingles.  and the third wrap in plastic wax the roof  and seal the windows but leave a inlet and an outlet for air at the top and bottom. put them on a window sill or better yet out in the weather. the results will be the same but the time will be longer. I've done these experiments, both methods.
it really is educational. the baggy is just faster.

the cupola is a great idea and its good for cooling as well as heating, half our perspective clients live in two story houses  and we always work with them in the ways to get heat and cool to move around a house. most just do that and cut the heating bills down so far a stove in no longer a priority.

building a fourth card board house with a cupola would be a good option as well.
off hand i dont know how to simulate the cupola in the baggy experiment.

hmm card board should be replaced with the more accurate corrugated fiber board. which simulates the wall construction found in stick frames.

as you say anyway you cut it the house needs to breath personally the less complex the system the better i like it. as shown historically the KISS concept is still the best way to make it easy for the end user,
 
Max Kennedy
pollinator
Posts: 490
Location: Englehart, Ontario, Canada
2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
If you're relying on passive air movement your right.  We're both talking good designs, just different designs one passive one active.  Just wondering, your homepage looks a lot like some photo's I saw a while back at
http://mha-net.org/docs/v8n2/wildac09f.htm

Any relation to the guy in the green sweatshirt and grey beret?  And I think I know where we are locking horns, I'm an old army brat and you look to have been a mariner .
 
Ernie Wisner
gardener
Posts: 791
Location: Tonasket washington
44
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
nope but i know of the project being worked on.

me i have been a sailor all my life,  I do know it shows up in my speech patterns and writing. its just the radio protocols coming out. Erica and I have the same sort of arguments but she tends to translate these days rather than take it at first blush and i go out and build the thing she is talking about so i can see for myself how it works.

the other bit is Erica  teaches the artistic/conceptual learning styles and i tend to teach the visual/kinesthetic. so if your learning style is more the conceptual artistic side, my explanations lack the content you are looking for. as a note Ianto is a conceptual/kinesthetic teacher makes him good at a wider range then I but a smaller range then Erica (the kinesthetic/visual being a big part of the artistic) and both are better writers than i will ever be.

the only advantage i have is that i am either dumb/crazy enough to take the models and concepts out and build/play with them till i know the systems better than they do 

 
steward
Posts: 32860
Location: missoula, montana (zone 4)
hugelkultur trees chicken wofati bee woodworking
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
The guy in the green sweatshirt:  is that max?
 
Ernie Wisner
gardener
Posts: 791
Location: Tonasket washington
44
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I think so 
 
Posts: 56
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
All I want to know is, Paul, could you draw a picture and then tell me how to do build it? jk! (just kidding!) But still, dreaming along, if I could run my mouse over parts of the picture and have notes come up about the whys and wherefores, as to why you're drawing it like that, that would be AWESOME! I know, always dreaming, but it helps when we can comprehend these complex details on the fly using visuals, know what I mean, Jelly Bean?
 
pollinator
Posts: 4154
Location: Northern New York Zone4-5 the OUTER 'RONDACs percip 36''
61
hugelkultur fungi books wofati solar woodworking
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
someone mentioned air being drawn into the house as a source of Wet! I disagree I think that this would only be possible only in an area similar to the humid Pacific N.W..
in a house with a dehumidifier running 24-7 !

I worked doing drywall on a Government project for new housing for military families , and complained to my boss about the shoddy work that was being done sealing
vapor barriers, with the ends being tucked out of sight around windows !

Later I worked in a local hardware, where we often replaced window glass for these units due to frost/ice accumulation due to warm moist air leaking out and meeting
freezing temperatures !

A small hopefully tight house will draw air into the house and pull water vapor back into the house , drying the insulation and saving heat and damage from water
condensation!

For the good of the Craft ! PYRO Logically Big Al
gift
 
Garden Mastery Academy - Module 1: Dare to Dream
will be released to subscribers in: soon!
reply
    Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic