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Portable Compact 6" RMH Hybrid w/ internal mass and all cast internals

John McDoodle

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Location: ontario, canada

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posted 9 years ago

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This is what I have to deal with today. I wonder if my truck will even start this morning.... -30C feels like -41C with the wind chill

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John McDoodle

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posted 9 years ago

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Just a temp moch-up preview. Seems a bit small... I don't think the outside will get hot enough to cause any off gas fumes from the antique galvanized tub...? Maybe I should shoot for slightly larger core to cast? I want to cast it into a permenant tub or box, or permenant mold housing as the antique tub would be. Just looking at it makes me want to go larger slightly, at least the core, maybe larger core and barrel? Maybe it's fine and I worry too much? I find myself wanting slightly more than I see there...

The rusty drum, men's gloves and cart are only temporary in the moch-up to show what it might look like and how much room I might have for the feed tube and such

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Glenn Herbert

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That looks fairly similar, probably a bit larger than the 6" J-tube core I cast in an old galvanized steel box.

The riser is 10" OD, 6" ID, with 2" perlite-clay fill. It worked great, and the whole assembly drafted well on a 90 F day at an Earth Day demo, with the exhaust cool enough to just about hold a hand in it. We dismantled it after 2-3 hours burning, and the box was too hot to touch with bare hands, but after a half hour or so of cooling we could load it into a car.

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John McDoodle

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posted 9 years ago

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the core you made is almost exactly what i want to do. more or less... but i want to run it as a stand-alone unit - and use the refractory as an internal mass. it will be a small DIY firebrick internal mass- but it will heat up / charge the mass much faster this way- take up less floor space AND being stand-alone the atmosphere/external temps should keep the antique tub cool enough.

i know most furnace ducks are galvanized steel - so i guess being "cold" on the outside keeps everything from getting hot enough to cause any galvanization issues. maybe with the right base - or feet or wheels- it might work out.

i had considered making this a 5" system- but 6" chimney pipe seems more common. IDK

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F Styles

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Location: climate zone 6b

posted 9 years ago

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go for the 6" John. bigger the better with an enlarged feed chamber and lid!

I have an idea for you. maybe you could use another tub like that one you are using for the core base and install your exhaust through the center of it and have it on wheels to keep it portable and fill it with your favorite mass whether it be dirt cement or cob, dirt or cob would keep it more portable, that way you could bring it in or out of the house depending if you want a small section of mass or not in your home... more options the better.

Rocket Mag evolution timeline: http://www.permies.com/t/52316/rocket-stoves/Rocket-stove-heats-water-pics

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John McDoodle

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Having another tub being sectional/removable for a secondary optional exhaust mass? That's got to be the best idea I've heard all day, all week. I like it. That idea has potential to be a possible innovation for flexibility and portability like a sectional sofa, to speak. people in tiny homes, bunkies and earth ships, like myself would consider that flexibility and portability an awesome innovative idea. My place is small so I need a small footprint. And if I could move it or part of it when the wife wants to re-arrange , or for summer, that would be an added bonus.

That also makes things less permenant, less integral, and more "shippable"

Once again, I thinks that's a great innovative idea F Styles

Now I just need the wife, any ideas for that one, smarty pants

lol jk

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John McDoodle

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Location: ontario, canada

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posted 9 years ago

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I also like your "enlarged feed chamber with lid" idea, but I don't have room for that on this one.

If I were trying to convince someone to do it, or make the idea more "innovative" , I'd call it a VERTICAL BATCH BOX. which is clearly another great idea for the small footprint / compact rocket ideas. I might experiment with a vertical batch box for sure, but that one will have to fit into the next project, as it will not fit into this one. Never-the-less, vertical batch box is also genius

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F Styles

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posted 9 years ago

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all my friends call me the idea guy.

maybe you could just enlarge it a little say you have a 5" or 6" feed chamber maybe you could bump it up to 7" or 8" inches with a lid, just so you can stick that slightly bigger piece in. each inch of log size larger may get you an extra 15 min to a 1/2 hour depending on the length of the log.

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John McDoodle

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Location: ontario, canada

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Just an update:
I've decided that the tub is slightly too small for my mass, and my feed tube wouldn't be deep enough if I used a cast feed in that tub. I'm looking into a slightly larger tub, preferably another galvanized one. I've also gathered a few more extra just-in-case ingredients, but I have yet to get the perlite while I find a slightly larger tub. I want something no larger than 2ft wide, 2ft deep, and 3ft long for the cast core, but this 12" tall tub I have isn't deep enough for my final decision. I've found perfect stock tanks at farm stores but they are almost 100.oo each for the metal ones, too much for me. I'm a budget builder lol.

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F Styles

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Location: climate zone 6b

posted 9 years ago

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make your own tub brother? how about cutting a 50gal barrel in half from top to bottom like a boat with a rounded bottom and make your own legs you bolt on the sides to support it? that would give you your 2'x3' tub. it would also allow you to place a full size barrel on top of it for a bell.

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John McDoodle

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Lol FStyles I love it. I'd say that's genius , because I had the same idea,

but I wasn't sure about the legs. I'm too cheap to buy the barrel stove kit(s). I could make legs or stands but who knows how ugly that would be

But yeah I like that idea very much and I might just do that. I'm guessing it will take about 3/4 of a barrel to get the feed depth I want along with the floor thickness. Maybe slightly more, enough to fit a 14" diameter drum on top.

A horizontal 55 gal drum would give me lots of actual room for a vertical batch box as we previously discussed, something I want to try possibly.

Slightly less portable than the tub but still not permenant and would be movable. I'm now set on designing and building a horizontal partial barrel cast core , (with a vertical batch box possibly).

Here's a design possibility with only slightly enlarged feed tube. From 5" square to 6" square, more room for wood and ashes and inspections/clean outs

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John McDoodle

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Location: ontario, canada

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i bought perlite today. the place i get the big bags for 10.oo only had one bag left- so i only have one so far. i think its 20 liters volume. but i will get at least 2 more bags as soon as i can... i want to get casting as soon as i can get the weather and the perlite. for the legs or stands i had considered making two X shaped steel tubes to sit the core barrel onto...

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F Styles

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Location: climate zone 6b

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brother, now that you decided to go with the 50gal tub design you can upgrade the feed tube to a propane tank rocket mag stove. you have the space to do it and it would also make your system a little lighter since you would be using less concrete. you could put wagon wheels on the legs so you can roll your rocket mag stove out when you want. use a 50 gal bell and sink the manifold down inside beside the core instead of out the side of the bell and you will see the performance increase.

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John McDoodle

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Location: ontario, canada

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F Styles wrote: use a 50 gal bell and sink the manifold down inside beside the core instead of out the side of the bell and you will see the performance increase.

I'm not sure I understand this part... My refractory floor below my burn chamber has to be at least 5" thick for my preference of strength and lower mass.

Perhaps you could better explain this part...? I think the 14" x 26" grease barrel would fit and work nice on there, and I have 14" lids and ovens and grilles already made, but I'm open to every possibility in suggestions and optimization for performance.

I appreciate having advice before I build, something I never had before I built my first unit. I'm glad you commented because I was going to ask your opinion on this revised core idea anyway lol, since you suggested the horizontal barrel core before I did also

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John McDoodle

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Location: ontario, canada

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I don't have a level shop floor or a laser level, so cutting the core barrel might be fun, something in not looking forward to. I guess it doesn't have to be a perfect cut, which is hard for a perfectionist to admit lol.

Any ideas to make this easier with basic tools and a dirt floor work shop? If I had my way, I'd use a laser level to mark the optimal line, but I don't have one of those, or the level floor either lol

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F Styles

Posts: 455

Location: climate zone 6b

posted 9 years ago

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do you have two 50gal barrels and a propane tank?

if you do, you could easily bolt together this unit.

step by step instruction for an easy build

if you still want to fill a 50gal drum with cement you could start your measurement at the barrel seem on both ends and mark, then measure around the bend "X" length of your choice and then mark, then measure the same "X" length at the other end and mark, then draw a line from one mark to the next.

i would use a 50 gal barrel for maximum heat riser insulation capability to increase the performance of your Rocket Mag Stove. use a propane tank for the wood magazine because its thick, can handle the heat and as long as you bring the refractory cement and fire brick to the edge of the mouth of the burn tunnel entrance it will be the best stove you can build.

Rocket Mag evolution timeline: http://www.permies.com/t/52316/rocket-stoves/Rocket-stove-heats-water-pics

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John McDoodle

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Location: ontario, canada

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I'm working on a horizontal barrel cast core this time. My last vertical unit works good but I'm moving forward into my cast core design/concept. My step father likes your big mouth rocket, I was showing it to him today, but right now I'm moving forward with my own 2nd design into this horizontal shippable cast core.

I'm just going to make the best cut I can with a measuring tape and a 2ft square I guess. I believe measure twice and cut once, and do it right the first time, so making the long core barrel cut and measurements is going to need patience since I don't have the laser level or level floor.,.

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F Styles

Posts: 455

Location: climate zone 6b

posted 9 years ago

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I can only assume your house floor inside is level? if so then take it inside just to mark it and then bring it out side to cut it?

I think you should listen to your step father? older and wiser right?

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Rocket Mag Thread: http://www.permies.com/t/54074/rocket-stoves/Rocket-Mag-heater-Rocket-Mag

John McDoodle

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Location: ontario, canada

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Lol possibly, although he has less rocket and science experience, but he likes you stove because it holds more fuel, that's all. He understands that I have my own visions and goals, because my needs and my house are different. My place is small, floor is not level, it has a self draining concrete floor. Which is good in a way because I can hold tones of mass if I wanted to. But my place is 18'x 18' on the outside so I have a very tiny-home earthship to heat, so tonnes would be too much given my floor space and needs.

I actually found another possible candidate today for a tub. I've been very indecisive on the tub I'm going to use for the core. This one I found, It already has heavy caster wheels and it's perfect size...

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F Styles

Posts: 455

Location: climate zone 6b

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the only building material you would have fun while your house burns?
i love the slogan they have for the bricks "Designed to smoke not build"

Do they have limits on how high the bricks can be built? puts a new meaning to high rise building.

if you build a home with hemp bricks would it be bad to have a smoke detector?

if your house does catch on fire do you call the fire department or your friends?

if you build with hemp bricks do you still use mortar on your joints?

does living in a hemp brick house violate your parole?

could you fail your job drug testing?

are the hemp bricks baked or vaped?

do you get them from the local hardware store or the guy on the corner?

are they sold by the pound or kilo?

if the K9 unit came to your house would that give them probable cause?

are they indica or sativa?

Rocket Mag evolution timeline: http://www.permies.com/t/52316/rocket-stoves/Rocket-stove-heats-water-pics

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John McDoodle

Posts: 617

Location: ontario, canada

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oMG FStyles every line of that reply made me laugh at my screen LOL. you are a funny guy. comedians get paid for material that good lol

The cannabricks also are reported to clean the indoor air quality

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John McDoodle

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Location: ontario, canada

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Glenn Herbert wrote:That looks fairly similar, probably a bit larger than the 6" J-tube core I cast in an old galvanized steel box.

The riser is 10" OD, 6" ID, with 2" perlite-clay fill. It worked great, and the whole assembly drafted well on a 90 F day at an Earth Day demo, with the exhaust cool enough to just about hold a hand in it. We dismantled it after 2-3 hours burning, and the box was too hot to touch with bare hands, but after a half hour or so of cooling we could load it into a car.

Glenn what do you think about a metal box this size to cast my core? I've got all the ingredients now to make the perlite/refractory cast core. And I've got a nice looking metal box with caster wheels this size and I tell prefer this tub/box the most

It seems to hold more mass (internal cubic inches) than my original rocket

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F Styles

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Location: climate zone 6b

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Go bigger. go look at the threads and you see alot of upgrades to bigger. I mean who really goes smaller? you know, looking like your owner is only suppose to work with peoples pets? 6" man?

Rocket Mag evolution timeline: http://www.permies.com/t/52316/rocket-stoves/Rocket-stove-heats-water-pics

Rocket Mag Thread: http://www.permies.com/t/54074/rocket-stoves/Rocket-Mag-heater-Rocket-Mag

John McDoodle

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yes it is a 6" system. my latest design holds about twice the cubic inches of internal mass as my original EMBER rocket- and i think its also about 3 times bigger than Glenn Herberts 6" cast core. i cant go much bigger for a multitude of reasons- this design already maxed out my height and length limitations. i wanted Glenns opinion on if it were too large for a single casting but im just going to cast it, if none of the long-time experienced members like Glenn dont give me input when i humbly ask for thier opinion(s). i just like to check first with someone whom has more casting experience than i do. so far ive done 2 casts. both are very strong- but ive never casted anything this big before

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F Styles

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Location: climate zone 6b

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cast it with a larger feed magazine. im sure you have an extra propane tank laying around... youll wish you did.

Rocket Mag evolution timeline: http://www.permies.com/t/52316/rocket-stoves/Rocket-stove-heats-water-pics

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John McDoodle

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If I could make a bigger feed, without weakening my cast, and still be able to feed pellets and multi-fuels like my original EMBER, I might, but that seems a challenge since I want to be able to burn pellets and other fuels also. My original EMBER stove has a feed tube of 5"x5" and the inside of that steel tube is less than 5" since is 5" outside and 3/16 thick tube. My feed tube is only about 4.75" x 4.75" on that model, this model will have an actual 6"x6" square feed tube that measures a full 6" , so the feed tube is already designed to be bigger than my original rocket stove. I'd make it deeper too but I want a thick solid mass in the floor of this stove, and strength.

I would like someone with casting experience to look at my new "tub" steel box. But I'm sure it will work. I've seen bigger one-piece castings on permies here in people's efforts to create a portable/shippable cast core

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F Styles

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all i have as my "tub" is the thin sides of a 50gal drum with a propane tank bolted to it. you could do the same. bolt it together and then when you cast the concrete inside it will hold. i did it. you could bolt yours to your steel outter box you have on wheels and it would work. i had to make my deal with wheels, yours is already made.

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John McDoodle

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Who is good at math? I want to figure out how many liters by volume my "tub" core mould will hold? Then I can figure out 60-70% of that is how much perlite I need, in liters, which is how the perlite is measured and bought, by the liter , by volume.

My core is 16" x 32" x 20"
That's 10,240 cubic inches?

My burn chamber is 20" x 6" x 6" = 720 cubic inches

My feed chamber is 6x6x9" = 324 cubic inches

My riser is (Pi) 3.14 x (Radius) 6" x (length) 14"= 263.76 cubic inches?
My core mix volume does not include the feed or burn chamber or riser, so I will subtract them from the total tub volume 720+324+263.7= 1307.7

How many liters fits into 10240 -1307.7 = 8932.3 cubic inches?

I feel confident that my math is good, EXCEPT for the riser, I'm sure that my math there is wrong.

Any input or help from any math whiz? I'm trying to figure out how many liters of perlite makes 65% of my core volume...

positively optimistic 🙂 https://www.youtube.com/@613Builds

F Styles

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Location: climate zone 6b

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are you mixing perlite into the refractory cement for your actual burn core tunnel and heat riser?

Rocket Mag evolution timeline: http://www.permies.com/t/52316/rocket-stoves/Rocket-stove-heats-water-pics

Rocket Mag Thread: http://www.permies.com/t/54074/rocket-stoves/Rocket-Mag-heater-Rocket-Mag

F Styles

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come on man, you can go bigger on the feed chamber.

Rocket Mag evolution timeline: http://www.permies.com/t/52316/rocket-stoves/Rocket-stove-heats-water-pics

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John McDoodle

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John McDoodle wrote:Who is good at math? I want to figure out how many liters by volume my "tub" core mould will hold? Then I can figure out 60-70% of that is how much perlite I need, in liters, which is how the perlite is measured and bought, by the liter , by volume.

My core is 16" x 32" x 20"
That's 10,240 cubic inches?

My burn chamber is 20" x 6" x 6" = 720 cubic inches

My feed chamber is 6x6x9" = 324 cubic inches

My riser is (Pi) 3.14 x (Radius) 6" x (length) 14"= 263.76 cubic inches?
My core mix volume does not include the feed or burn chamber or riser, so I will subtract them from the total tub volume 720+324+263.7= 1307.7

How many liters fits into 10240 -1307.7 = 8932.3 cubic inches?

I feel confident that my math is good, EXCEPT for the riser, I'm sure that my math there is wrong.

Any input or help from any math whiz? I'm trying to figure out how many liters of perlite makes 65% of my core volume...

positively optimistic 🙂 https://www.youtube.com/@613Builds

F Styles

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Location: climate zone 6b

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F Styles wrote:are you mixing perlite into the refractory cement for your actual burn core tunnel and heat riser?

Rocket Mag evolution timeline: http://www.permies.com/t/52316/rocket-stoves/Rocket-stove-heats-water-pics

Rocket Mag Thread: http://www.permies.com/t/54074/rocket-stoves/Rocket-Mag-heater-Rocket-Mag

John McDoodle

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F Styles wrote:

F Styles wrote:are you mixing perlite into the refractory cement for your actual burn core tunnel and heat riser?

Yes I want between 55-75% perlite by volume, rest is refractory cement. It's like a huge firebrick, I've explained this multiple times.

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F Styles

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reason i said that was before i upgraded my heat riser i use perlite and refractory cement and the perlite does not like the direct high heat. if you dont trust me you can ask the other experts.

Rocket Mag evolution timeline: http://www.permies.com/t/52316/rocket-stoves/Rocket-stove-heats-water-pics

Rocket Mag Thread: http://www.permies.com/t/54074/rocket-stoves/Rocket-Mag-heater-Rocket-Mag

John McDoodle

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its going to be refractory and perlite - same as my first model. same as many other cast stoves . its all good.

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John McDoodle

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I started to modify this 16"wide x 32" long x 20" deep BBQ stand , tub, permenant core mould. I cut the tall sides down, and I found some heavy sand or concrete weights on the bottom... I'm going to remove those, won't need any more weight lol, but the thing seem sturdy

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F Styles

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can you put the barrel on it and take a pic so we can see what it would look like in place?

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Rocket Mag Thread: http://www.permies.com/t/54074/rocket-stoves/Rocket-Mag-heater-Rocket-Mag

John McDoodle

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The weights I removed are about 14 lbs each , that's 28 or 30 lbs of weight loss. And it's also designed to hold a heavy 20lb propane tank, 20 lbs of LP gas, a big bbq, and all the meat all that, a big pot of corn cobs boiling, plus all the weights and LP tanks, this thing is designed to hold weight, thankfully.

I plan on moving one of the doors to the end, and using the original front as the new back.

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John McDoodle

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Update:
I've now got 9 bags of perlite @ 8.8L , plus a 17L bag, so I've got 96.2 liters of perlite now. I've spent 75.oo or more on perlite alone. I've got 30 Lbs of refractory cement, and 63 Kgs of fireplace mortar. Those were another 75.oo. I've invested 150.oo in casting materials alone thus far. It doesn't bother me because this one is going to be the keeper, the hearth for my home, and some people spend thousands on wood burning stoves. Ive done 75 hours of tests on my original rocket and I know what I want to do for my permenant residential rocket mass stove now and I've learned what to do and what not to do, so I'm going to build the expensive bigger mass model now with confidence of installing it in my home

I believe I've got the materials and the weather is above freezing here now, so I'm almost ready to get this party started. I've been working on the doors and the front port on the core tub in my free time, I'm building a wooden burn chamber and feed tube mould to be sacrificially burned out on the first fire, and maybe a 6" cardboard tube for the riser side of the core. Mixing all the stuff will be fun, I mixed the last batch by hand , but I found a cement mixer here, I will have to see if the motor works and try to make my job easier this time if possible

positively optimistic 🙂 https://www.youtube.com/@613Builds

F Styles

Posts: 455

Location: climate zone 6b

posted 9 years ago

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looking at the set up you placed the barrel there shows you have enough space for a larger feed magazine. you totally have enough room to sink a propane tank down in there. youll lay awake at night if you dont. i know you want to.

Rocket Mag evolution timeline: http://www.permies.com/t/52316/rocket-stoves/Rocket-stove-heats-water-pics

Rocket Mag Thread: http://www.permies.com/t/54074/rocket-stoves/Rocket-Mag-heater-Rocket-Mag

a tiny voice in my head can't shut up about this tiny ad:

Learn Permaculture through a little hard work

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