ideas for buying a small parcel of land. Trees? Zone? Etc?

Len wrote:
I didn't really want to talk about those people too much... unless that changes, a lot of them will die. I really don't want wish that on anyone. I don't know what the welfare culture in the US is like, but in Canada there are families who have been on welfare for generations. The young adults who come out of these homes have only one skill... working the system. For the girls it means early pregnancy, and the boys, drug abuse. As more people grow their own food (or even some of it), use less services, stop going places... except on bikes... Less people have jobs and they pay less. The tax base that welfare is based on shrinks, welfare gets harder to to obtain, those who need it most, can't... those who know how still do... somethings gonna break.

People will learn to grow their own food even in the city if they have to. It may not be homesteading as we know it, but it will go in that direction. In Cuba, even people in apartments grow rabbits... and probably salads in the window.

There are lots of people in cities guerilla gardening, rooftop gardening, or going the way of hydroponics.  DH has some theater friends who have a garden collective in Brooklyn.  I also know lots of folks in Denver that do a lot of community gardening.  Permaculture actually works really well in urban settings.

Nerdmom wrote:
I would recommend Missouri, near the St. Louis area.  Land is cheap compared to the rest of the country, there are four decent seasons, although Spring and Fall can be a bit short, and very few insurmountable predators.  I hear the javelinas in AZ can be a beast.  Plus there is a burgeoning locavore culture that is especially big around St. Louis and a decent sized farmer's market.  Second would be in the Kansas City area.  Kansas City is definitely behind St. Louis regarding organics, local foods, and general progressiveness, but every year there are strides being made.

St. Louis is the last place I think of when I think local wholesome food/and or cultivatable land, as the multinational giant Monsanto is headquartered right there outside of the city.
Can you firebomb the premises whenever one of you chooses to set up shop there? I'd appreciate it.

Peace-

The feedback has been great.  Reading on market gardening from the late 1800's where it was human or animal power does have me thinking about the proximity to towns and cities.  One book I was looking at seemed to indicate that you needed to be within 10-12 miles of the cities or desired marketplace if you were going to be able to make enough money to make it worthwhile. 

The question will be how big a town will be needed for a local farm economy to work.  I personally don't know that I want to be too close to the cities just because of the likely problems initially as the economy continues to seek a new normal.  Unlike the 1800's where they had not experienced huge population growth and dependence on a limited resource like fossil fuels so they didn't have to deal with what appears will be a hugely unsettling shift back to what will be likely a more sustainable limited resource base.  Limited fossil fuels and transportation will mean many of these cities cannot feed themselves and the initial phases of that stabilization could mean very difficult times lie ahead.  Of course much of that will depend on location, and natural resources and environment of those cities.  I currently live in a city in the high plains desert and I think that the cities here are not going to be a good place to be due to the natural environment cannot sustain a growing environment with conventional means.  My hope is that permaculture can make the impossible possible in this environment, but getting something wide spread quickly enough to feed all these people seems a stretch at this point.  I know people will adapt, so I guess we will see how this plays out.  I don't think we have to wait long before we see more of these effects become obvious in the economy.

So that has me looking at locations with a warmer more "growable" environment.  Water is high on my list.  If living in an area with lots of rainfall can we get by on rainwater catchment and not have to drill a well right away?  All things being considered money is a big factor so I have a very small limited budget for this land.  So this appears it will force me to decide on a piece of land that is rather small, but closer to a town, or a larger space that is back in the hills that has the natural resources on the property to be somewhat sustainable.  So I guess that is the challenge now.  Can we really make a sustainable food forest to include our animal companions on that small a space?  I don't know.  If we chose to be further out in the country are or will the roads continue to be passable so that we can get into town and the market place?  Lots to think about... Thanks for the input on already forested land vs mostly open pasture land. 

Longsnowsm

Longssnow -

Small area closer to city/town centre: Intensive food production for market.
Larger area/Pasture in the country: Raising cattle/chickens/goats/rabbits/other fowl/sheep/ for online selling, market.

My needs are more cultural; so long as its not overly conservative, racist, homophobic, and as a bonus contains a Jewish and a black/African community I have no issues on climate (Although I only experienced snow twice in my life a flurry I thought was a blizzard and a few inches of snow in Tahoe).

However that cuts out most of the country.

I am entertaining the idea of living in Minnesota or North Dakota because in the cities there are large refugee/immigrant/minority populations which are the people I would most want to provide food/education for esp. because of the lack of foods that are associated with the many people who come there (Like Noog oil, teff, shiro, millet and Texsel for the big Ethiopian/Somali communities) plus my partner is from the ND/MN border and he really has gotten me to think about it.

I'd like to do a sharing farm which surprisingly Peakmoment did a video on; and I'd like to bring spices, herbs, and produce from all over the world to that location and grow them (Japanese Mountain yams for fufu! The thought is mouth-watering .)

I also love the idea of these populations from Bosnia, India, Liberia, Somalia, and Cambodia cming together and creating networks that work on keeping their original culture, exchange culture knowledge and also accumulate the things American culture has to offer if they so chose.

I also feel those two states have the land, farm programs and culture of immigrants (with many 3rd and 4th generation americans being around and even the majority) I feel I'd be comfortable to live in if/when times get tougher and people start talking about some brown people taking American jobs and people begin acting crazy 

CrunchyBread wrote:
Nobody WANTS to be poor.  They just need an escape hatch.  People want a hand up much more than they want a handout.

I am so happy you said this; I IRL often but in with my current experience of a teenager from the suburbs of the North Bay to being homeless in SF. Now I am in a 2 year housing program and hope to leave this summer for NYC, its been a challenge and have seen people come back to the shelters month after month (Some of them year after year) and just the traps and dead-ends people get into that crushes some.

I swear permaculture really helped me out and got me to work on my zone 0 and working at Permaculture farm helped me get to where I am now 

Nerdmom wrote:
There are lots of people in cities guerilla gardening, rooftop gardening, or going the way of hydroponics.  DH has some theater friends who have a garden collective in Brooklyn.  I also know lots of folks in Denver that do a lot of community gardening.  Permaculture actually works really well in urban settings.

A thousand or even ten thousand people in a city of two million still leaves a lot of people scrambling.... I wouldn't want to be living close to it.... even if half of them are growing a good portion of their food, you still have a million starving, angry, desperate people. Don't advertise your food production.... If you can make it through the first little while, you may find lots of spare land to grow things on... probably quite fertile land. Water may be a problem, rain catchment and filtering is probably mandatory unless you have a clean river nearby (as we do). Power is probably going to be gone, but that is probably not too big a problem if you at least have a basement or a wood stove. Empty houses make good firewood. There probably won't be much in the way of bylaws to worry about if you wish to build a rocket mass heater either. The good thing about permaculture in the city is that it makes the yard look unkempt and maybe not a likely place to find food.

I'm not sure if I would like to be right or wrong... I certainly have no wish to see personal devastation, but a return to a simpler life style would be nice.

Ahipa wrote:
My needs are more cultural; so long as its not overly conservative, racist, homophobic, and as a bonus contains a Jewish and a black/African community I have no issues on climate...
However that cuts out most of the country.

Among other places, do consider the great Northwest!  Absolutely wonderful place here, as far as moderate/liberal values are concerned.  We even have polite drivers on our freeways! 

Ahipa wrote:I'd like to do a sharing farm which surprisingly Peakmoment did a video on; and I'd like to bring spices, herbs, and produce from all over the world to that location and grow them (Japanese Mountain yams for fufu! The thought is mouth-watering .)

I saw that episode!  It was inspiring.  What a great idea to build community!   I think isolation and fear are our biggest obstacles to growth as humans today.  Anything that helps bring neighbors out of their houses and talking together is a good thing, and working together can do a lot to build mutual trust and respect.

I 2nd what nerdmom said. West Missouri and eastern KS is blessed with generally good soil and good rainfall and it borders zone 5/6 so growing many things is quite a good possibility. Also there is high usable limestone content in the subsoil which makes the soil a bit sweeter (lower PH) which most growies love