• Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic

1859 ish american chestnut barn... Help!!  RSS feed

 
Skye Alexandra
Posts: 26
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I had this inspected when I bought the farm ( by a so called timberframer at that) and they said no worries... But I was right, the peg was gone (removed?) and the beam has moved!!! How do I fix this? The barn is only about 13 funny typo wide.
image.jpg
[Thumbnail for image.jpg]
image.jpg
[Thumbnail for image.jpg]
image.jpg
[Thumbnail for image.jpg]
 
Skye Alexandra
Posts: 26
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Adding the rest of the pics
image.jpg
[Thumbnail for image.jpg]
image.jpg
[Thumbnail for image.jpg]
image.jpg
[Thumbnail for image.jpg]
 
R Scott
Posts: 3358
Location: Kansas Zone 6a
32
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Do you have a couple more wide angle shots, that help see the big picture?

The redneck right way is a come along or ratchet strap to pull it back in and replace the peg. Drill the old one out and drive a new one home. Redneck because it isn't necessarily safe.

Let's see what the real experts on here say...
 
Jay C. White Cloud
Posts: 2413
46
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Hi Skye,

Is this the one we talked about on the phone last year? More pictures will help...

Regards,

j

p.s. send me an email if you would like...
 
Skye Alexandra
Posts: 26
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
The four pics after the one of the beam are from the same side of the joint, I'll send more. Yes Jay, it's the same barn, I was hoping you'd get to see it on here. I'll get some we'd angles when I go out today.
image.jpg
[Thumbnail for image.jpg]
image.jpg
[Thumbnail for image.jpg]
 
Bill Bradbury
pollinator
Posts: 684
Location: Richmond, Utah
32
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Hi Skye,

It looks to me like someone removed the peg intentionally in order to install the new roof framing when they built the addition. I'm just guessing here, but I think you may be alright with another post tied to the first and the collar beam. While this is a somewhat dangerous situation that never should have gotten by a reputable inspector, I don't think it will actually be a very difficult repair. I'll let Jay take it from here as he is the real deal, but I thought I'd throw my 2 cents in.
 
Jean Becnel
Posts: 5
1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
More pictures. The chain and come along mentioned is likely your best bet.
 
Skye Alexandra
Posts: 26
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Here is a wide angle. The first has the spot I am worriesd over the second is the other side of the beam, and the third is looking up at the beam.
image.jpg
[Thumbnail for image.jpg]
image.jpg
[Thumbnail for image.jpg]
image.jpg
[Thumbnail for image.jpg]
 
Skye Alexandra
Posts: 26
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
The two pieces of wood In tge for ground of the second pic are part of the ladder to the loft
 
Skye Alexandra
Posts: 26
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
The blue insulation is recycled jeans, it works really well... I had wanted to wash and card out waste wool, but couldn't get it all lined up in time.. Here's a pic of the opposite wall for reference.
 
Skye Alexandra
Posts: 26
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Oops, here's that opposite wall!
image.jpg
[Thumbnail for image.jpg]
 
Skye Alexandra
Posts: 26
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Once the beam is fixed... Will my barn be strong enough for real plaster walls? Metal or wood lathe?? Jay?
 
Scott Strough
Posts: 299
Location: Oklahoma
21
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Skye Alexandra wrote:Once the beam is fixed... Will my barn be strong enough for real plaster walls? Metal or wood lathe?? Jay?


You are going to need to put in at least 2 Cable eye lags on the upright, both above and below the crossbeam. Then 2 more cable eye lags on the crossbeam itself, top and bottom. Then you need to make a cable complete with eyes and a tensioner. All this can be gotten from most good hardware stores.

Pull it together with the tensioners top and bottom. See if you can get it pulled together enough to install a new peg. You can even leave the cable and lags in if you are worried.

Here is a link describing how to rig the cable:
Wire rope and cable

Keep in mind you'll need to have the cable looped through the Eye Lags and the tensioner first, then clamp together the cable.

Here is a link to show you a turnbuckle style tensioner.
Turnbuckles


All you do after that is tighten it up till the peg hole lines up.

If you run out of tensioning capability and still have more to go. Simply loosen the bottom cable while leaving the top cable tight. Then shorten the cable and re-rig it. Keep alternating until you have it.

PS I am a trained Marine engineer and I have rigged many cables like this. But you'll never get anyone on the internet to say for sure the building will hold the weight without an inspection first. As a general rule this will both work to pull it back together, and even you can leave the cable in place for extra security if you are cautious. It will also GENERALLY be strong enough for your other additions ... but I haven't inspected it. So it is just a guess.
 
Jay C. White Cloud
Posts: 2413
46
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Hi Skye,

Hope the kids and critters are all doing well and growing nicely. I know I owe you a phone call, but have been really busy...

O.k....questions...

Once the beam is fixed... Will my barn be strong enough for real plaster walls? Metal or wood lathe??


First let me apologize if I counter anyone else's views, but when I do, I will try to explain what and note that it is from a long history of training and experience that I do so. There is much to these many crafts of traditional/natural building that seem "really easy" and simple common since "fixes" or "methods." To a great degree that is very true in a "big picture sense." Nevertheless, when digging into the "nitty gritty" of it all what "seems obvious" isn't always...or...as easily solved as some think or hoped it would be...Kind'a like the old adage..."its never as easy as it seems and it always takes longer than we think..."

First..."cable eye lags" are absolutely not a devise to use for much more than hanking a very light close line or perhaps a wind chime. They are not meant for "dynamic or structural loads," unless of a "through member form with fixed nut assembly" and a "welded eye." They also must be meant for and rated for "critical loads!!! They are not meant for any type of "live load" rigging or "structural repair" found in traditional Barn Wrighting. I would also note that few "hardware stores" carry these types of "rated hardware assemblies." These are "special order items."

Even among organization like the OSHA, AMGA (american mountain guides association), ACCT (association for challenge course technologies) or NFPA (national fire protection association) and other related organization that ascertain and give guidelines for "wire rope," it should be well understood that there is much more to just going out and "getting some" because it "seems strong enough." There are clear guidelines for "load limits" ranging from basic none critical (usually 5:1) all the way up to double backed up systems with a 15:1 LL. Not know and understanding these limits and standards are one the leading causes to "critical incidence" on job and project sites...3/8 GAC is a minimum standard for most "live load" and dynamic load situations...

Like "eye lags" and everything else..."turnbuckles" are not typically meant for "dynamic loads" and the one that are, have ratings, are expensive (usually) and very robust. Again it is not a matter of just buying something that "looks strong enough." If (with safety ratios understood) one can not engineer and calculate all loads, and/or understand the basics of them...It is doubtful they should be doing these types of repairs. These are not the "average" or even "above average" DIY repare jobs...and I only recommend that a qualified person do this type of work and/or outline the parameters, modalities, means and materials for carrying out such work..

All you do after that is tighten it up till the peg hole lines up.


I apologize again, and mean no disrespect for anyones view points, but there is much more to this type of repare to an old timber frame structure than the above and then "...peg hole." I have seen so many "bad repairs" and "poor applications" as thus described in barns and other vintage buildings over the years, that allowing this type of information go passed without some "additional information" would be unprofessional on my part.

If you run out of tensioning capability and still have more to go. Simply loosen the bottom cable while leaving the top cable tight. Then shorten the cable and re-rig it. Keep alternating until you have it.


And this has killed folks more than once!!!

By following these guidelines and placing a "dynamic tensioned load" into an old frame that has not been evaluated by a PE with timber framing experience and/or examined by a Master Timberwright, while using "unevaluated tension rigging" has not only caused building to come off their foundations, and timbers to fail...but caused catastrophic injuries!! Something as simple as the tenon "popping" back into its housing can "jar" the "tension rig" and without back ups systems and other critical load path evaluations, the next event is often a cascade effect of failures through not only the rigging but the frame itself.

In short, the barn can be repaired, but needs to be evaluated and done by a professional with historic restoration experience with such timber frame structures...

Respectfully submitted and apologizes for any "counter views" shared..

j



 
Scott Strough
Posts: 299
Location: Oklahoma
21
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Jay C. White Cloud wrote: Snipped

In short, the barn can be repaired, but needs to be evaluated and done by a professional with historic restoration experience with such timber frame structures...

Respectfully submitted and apologizes for any "counter views" shared..

j
All that is true. On the other hand rated cable and hardware is indeed very easy to come by too. It is possible to DIY this in the way I suggested. However, you are correct that using too small of cable or hardware will potentially cause a failure. (The welded eyes tip is in fact a very good idea that I accidently omitted.) Even if you did have a hardware failure, it is very unlikely to cause the whole structure to fail though, judging by the photos of the situation.

I would agree though, having a professional do the work is always preferable to a DIY, just in case. However, that can get quite expensive for some and is not always an option, far more than the hardware. I have repaired both barns and wooden boats using the technique I mentioned above. It can work for sure. Once you get the peg replaced you are golden. Oh and I also forgot, using a tapered metal rod to help line up the hole is sometimes needed too.

I guess it boils down to whether this needs to be a DIY, or whether a professional repair is an option.

Oh and no need for apologies. This isn't a trivial repair, as it is load bearing. So a cautionary approach, even if DIY, is required. I agree entirely.
 
Jay C. White Cloud
Posts: 2413
46
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Hi Scott,


Again apologies for countering your advise before...and now perhaps a little bit as well...

On the other hand rated cable and hardware is indeed very easy to come by too.


Not for such applications as this and not at the average "hardware store" as suggested. For these critical applications I have to order on line or go to "specially supply stores" for such things in my experience...

...It is possible to DIY this in the way I suggested...Even if you did have a hardware failure, it is very unlikely to cause the whole structure to fail though, judging by the photos of the situation...


Again, speaking as an experienced Historic Restoration Artisans and trained Timber Wright...this is not a DIY project by any means, and I am speaking from direct knowledge (more than once) of frames being dynamically loaded as suggested and have something in the system...fail, shift or move...out of the expected load paths...and cause either the frame to come down or critically fail...This has in more than one occasion in the past 30 plus year I have been doing this caused deaths...Again...this is not a DIY project (not even a little bit) in my professional opinion and I really can not in good faith suggest to folks that may read this that it is...We will have to politely disagree on that point, as I have seen the outcome of such endeavors and they are both tragic and avoidable...

I would agree though, having a professional do the work is always preferable to a DIY, just in case. However, that can get quite expensive for some and is not always an option, far more than the hardware. I have repaired both barns and wooden boats using the technique I mentioned above. It can work for sure. Once you get the peg replaced you are golden. Oh and I also forgot, using a tapered metal rod to help line up the hole is sometimes needed too.


Scott I agree about this potentially being expensive, but many states (like NY which Skye is in and others) have matching "Barn Grants," to cover such expenditures for "conservation efforts."

I would suggest that a "human life" or even the life of our livestock is worth more than taking the risk for a DIYer or someone that "thinks they know" what they are doing to try and "maybe think their way" through such critical repairs as "drawn bent joints."

I believe that many have, such as yourself, survived doing such "patch work" to old frames. I see it all the time in my professional life and spend a large amount of time "undoing" such work and/or having to re-evaluate something that was only partially repaired and not "restored" by the proper methods as prescribed by "good practice" standards of historical conservation, and restoration ethos and principles. It's far from just being..."once you get the peg replaced you are golden..." and this clearly reflects only a parochial understanding of what needs to take place. I don't mean that to be harsh or disrespectful but there is much more to it than "just" replacing the peg.

1.) What is the species and condition of the timber in question?

2.) Does the failed timber need to be replaced?

3.) Was there "relish failure?" If so...why?

4.) Will the tenon need to be repaired or replace and can it be in situ?

5.) By what method is it best to do so? (i.e. Free tenon with wedge, splice tenone, etc.)

6.) Can the repare be effectively done in situ or does the project warrant disassemblage of the challenge bent.

And these are just the beginning evaluation criteria...We haven't even come to current load dynamics of the frame as it may currently be under, load shifts that may have taken place, unseen alterations...and the list goes on....

It "boils down" to a lot more than whether this needs to be a DIY, or whether a professional repair is an option....it simply is not a DIY project under any conditions...No more so than someone without medical training resetting bone and/or performing multilevel dermal suturing.

At this point, I should also illustrate the difference between a "conservation patch" and an actual "restoration repair," within the parameters of both historic restoration and good practices in timber framing. The "metal rod" you referenced is called a "draw pin" and its application is much more involved than just using it to "make holes line up." Again, I know many that do just as you prescribed and "think" it's o.k. to do so. Undoing and repairing this type of work is something I would rather avoid in the future as I (and others like me) have to "undo" it all to often...

At this point, I should make it clear, that repairing a frame like this would never involve "eye lags" or turnbuckles" or even cable other than perhaps in a "backup" come along. It would involve (but not limited to) redirected load path chain hoist, cable/rope hoist with continuous feed, block and tackle pulley systems (both compound and complex), and multiply back up systems to each loaded vector path used to tension and untension the frame, and again...that is just the basic starting point to rigging for this type of repare...

Sorry to be so "nitpicky."

Respectfully,

j

 
Skye Alexandra
Posts: 26
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Hi, its great to see replies! Thank you Jay for the careful advice. & the kids are all great! Twins are huge and proof of how great nursing is (no 'food' yet!!)!!!

The whole barn is american chestnut (according to old old original family next door) The peg was pulled out (god only knows why) but the timber was intact at the time when I had it first looked at. The 'expert' who visited thought he could see a peg, He also thought that the dinky stick built additions on either side would "keep the building in place regardless". I did not really agree, but left it alone.

Two heavy snow loaded winters later (2014 I couldn't get in there.. ) I noticed and posted that there was a problem. If you can see the back wall, upper left, the beam seems to be splitting due to the pull that the peggless beam allowed. So, really, HELP!

I have access to a real come-along with chains (courtesy of my electrician, who is all around handy.. but a little too 'don't worry' for my taste on these things) and we were talking about running right through the outside wall to circle the upright beam we want to pull, and the same on the other side, so that we would be pulling the two uprights to each other. (he wanted to do something like Scott said on the beam to rig the other end to, but I want to be comfortable about this) and then pull the frame together.

If we went forward on this, what do I do about the far wall? Pull it at the same time, to be sure it doesn't torque ? And do I then add some detail to strengthen the now weakened beam attachment?

Jay, are you in this area some time, on a fancy job you can take a moment away from?
 
tomas viajero
Posts: 47
3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I'm surprised no one has mentioned this... have you noticed your roof sagging? Your gable end walls are probably holding weight just fine, but with the failure of the peg on the tie-beam your roof should be sagging a bit. If so, you're going to have to put some upward pressure on the ridge area (by way of a jack or two and a beam) at the same time that you pull the side walls together with a come along. Because once you start pulling the side walls together with a come along the roof is going to either go up at the ridge (good) or rip out at the rafter feet (bad). Of course, once everything is in its proper place, you should be able to remove your jack, temporary beam, and come along. Just my observation.
 
Brett Hammond
Posts: 76
Location: Maryland, USA
5
solar tiny house woodworking
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Hi Skye. Have you successfully made repairs yet? If so, I would love to hear about it.

If not, I'll add my two cents. I agree with Jay and Tomas. This is a very serious structural problem caused by the weight of your roof pushing out your side walls because your beam is no longer attached, and requires structural engineering. That is a long span of wall without something tying the opposing walls together to counteract the lateral force from your roof. I hope you can get temporary supports in place to keep the walls from falling outward before snowfall.

And I would agree that you could do far more damage in attempting to repair it without an engineer accounting for all the forces imposed during the repair. Buildings can twist and come down like a house of cards during a structural repair because temporary supports were not in place to account for all the dynamic loads. Make sure whoever does the work has their insurance paid up to date.  

Also, as Jay mentioned, this has to be evaluated in person because there may be other forces at play that you may not have noticed yet. And I think you were wise not to take the advice of the people you talked to locally. If Jay can't get there, find a local licensed structural engineer that does this type of work regularly.

Best of luck!
 
Destroy anything that stands in your way. Except this tiny ad:
Complete Wild Edibles Package by Sergei Boutenko (1 HD video + 10 eBooks)
https://permies.com/t/70674/digital-market/digital-market/Complete-Wild-Edibles-Package-Sergei
  • Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic
Boost this thread!