Urban fowl! Squarefoot/bird

Greetings Toby and the Urban Farmer community!

I have a quarter acre in Tacoma, WA. I have listened to almost all of Paul's podcasts, read his Chicken 2.0 and Chicken Forage articles, and read Toby's Gaia's Garden. I may not have done my due diligence, in that I have only briefly, and some time ago, perused the boards for the answer to this question. (Another quick search of "chicken squarefoot" got nothing.")

I ask your forgiveness, if this has indeed been asked and answered. (I also ask that someone link the discussion for me!)

I am working on using Paul's best bird practices - 4-5 paddocks, lush forage on textured land, guard dog, etc..., I'd like to have Buff Orps and Muscovy ducks. Someday, I'd like to add rabbits, but don't get distracted by that!

I need to know, how many squarefoot do I need per bird? With or without supplemental feed. I want it better than humane, but I also want to know what my upper limit is. Birds primarily for eggs, sometime down the road I may be willing to let the ducks sit on a clutch a year for meat harvest.

Due to my property size and distance from my neighbors, I can exceed the quick answer from the city of 6 birds per yard.


I am about 1-2yrs from getting fowl. I've started suppressing grass with burlap and woodchips. I'll start spreading perennial and annual forage seed come spring.

Hi Corky,

This is no simple question: too many variables!! However, lets look at some of the parameters.
1. I've been told "organic" standards say 4 sq ft/bird. This may work in huge barns with 100+ birds, but I don't agree that if is at all suitable for small flocks. I've read that chickens can recognize up to 60 other "chickens", but tend to form strong pecking orders up to maybe 30 - please don't quote me on this, as I don't have the references to check on it right now. The important point is not the exact number, but rather that fact that at 4 sq ft/bird, the bottom bird in the pecking order has no place to hide and if anything disturbs the established pecking order, bad things can happen very quickly. Once you have a bully habit established, it can be difficult to impossible to cure, so prevention is essential.
2. Gail Damerow (see her Story's Guide or other books) recommends 8 sq ft /bird and I consider this much more realistic as a starting point. For close confinement of a small flock, I still think it's on the low side.
3. Daytime vs full-time density: If you're intending to have a secure night lock-up and daytime runs, you can have higher density for night-time. However, consider whether there will be *any* occasions when the shit hits the fan before you use that as your only guide. Some people have a secure lock-up with an almost as secure run that can be the back-up system when letting them out into less secure paddocks can't happen. A deep mulch system in this paddock is likely the only way to go, but putting down sections of 2x4 frames covered in hardware cloth and growing fast-growing greens like wheat or oats is great for the entertainment value. When the greens are exhausted from being mowed, move the frame to a new spot and re-seed and let the birds dig up any bugs that collected over the old spot
4. Entertainment value: The more stimulating/entertaining their environment is, the less space you have to have. But, to keep the environment entertaining, you need a low density or the chickens will just destroy it, so it's a catch 22. Some people put chicken plants in old tires to protect the roots in paddocks +/- using the screen idea to increase the food and soil protection if there's an area getting too much attention.
5. Mulch - chipped and shredded tree or dead leaves - help any system you use. Chickens produce a *lot* of high nitrogen poop. One of Joel Salatin's books has a chart on animal density based on their nitrogen output and that info can also help guide you. Too much nitrogen kills the soil and risks dangerous run-off, so it must be avoided.
6. I do hope you go for 5 paddocks, because if you do the math correctly, at 7 days/run, day one overlaps in the first run at 22 days rather than 29 days if you only have 4. Of course, seasons and eco-systems affect whether the 28 days of recovery works in the first place. I believe it was Paul who suggested that was why an attached deep mulch run was useful as a back-up so if you felt your paddock needed more recovery time, you wouldn't be forced to use it regardless. (if it was someone else, my apologies)
7. Multi-species - now you're getting even more complicated. Some stacking may happen as different birds like different plants although if they're all feathered there's going to be a lot of overlap.

Unfortunately, I've got to run, but hopefully this will get the discussion started. I've had chickens for years and mostly use a portable shelter system due to high predator pressure, but there are definite downsides to this - particularly the work involved). From that experience though, *always* have back-ups and spare infrastructure. You never know when you may have a sick/injured bird, or unexpected gifts (will you please take my son's 4H birds?) that need at least temporary housing.

J.

go for 5 paddocks, because if you do the math correctly, at 7 days/run, day one overlaps in the first run at 22 days rather than 29 days if you only have 4. Of course, seasons and eco-systems affect whether the 28 days of recovery works in the first place.

The main reason that 28 days is the 'standard' for keeping the birds off of a pasture is because of the life cycle of most parasites. One complete moon cycle will help assure that anything they might have left behind in the paddock will no longer be viable when they return.

Most backyard chicken raisers grossly overstock their birds, in my opinion. It is not just about the crowding, but many other factors as well.

With a wide variety of plants to peck at, they will first eat their favorites, then the rest, with the woody ones last. Because the least desirable plants are eaten last, they will eventually begin taking over the paddock. Not good for the paddock (nor chickens).

Their poop probably won't get to a toxic/hazard level, but if overstocked, there will be enough there to deter new plant growth.

Large flocks will consume so many bugs, worms, larva, etc. that your bug population will get so far out of balance that you will have trouble growing healthy fodder.

For a sustainable operation, I have heard numbers between 40=50 birds per acre. Since an acre is 43,560 sq.ft., I have 'rounded' that number to 43.56 birds per acre -- 1,000 square feet per bird. Anything less than that, they will eventually begin degrading the land.

Hi John,

I like your numbers! So if Corky has 1/4 acre and we assume a 2000 sq ft house footprint and another 1000 sq ft for paths/driveways, that would be 43560 / 4 - 3000 = 7890 sq ft which would mean a maximum of 8 birds. That's certainly enough for a functional backyard flock and if he were to start with only 5 birds, he'd have a little room to add some fresh blood in two or three years when the older birds start laying less frequently, assuming his system is really working in a sustainable, or better yet, restorative manner. This may work if he is really careful about stacking functions so that the birds have many healthy choices of forage and if areas are protected from over-use. The danger is that he'll be restricted to tree crops for his own food production. If he wants "human" garden area, he'll have to subtract that square footage off his bottom line. People often underestimate just how damaging chickens can be - they love to dig holes! I've seen way too many "free range chickens" in moonscapes with not a speck of green growing. I'm still a bit worried - do you feel that the 1000 sq ft/bird rule will cover most ecosystems or just the most productive ones?

Your comment that chickens could potentially reduce the insect loading below ideal levels is a unique observation. North American Humans have been so programmed to think of bugs as "bad" and something we should be constantly trying to "reduce", that we tend to overlook the positive, essential side of bugs. I do know that some people try to increase the bug levels by "growing bugs in compost", but one of my chicken loving friends is very wary of allowing chickens free access to a compost bin as she believes that the molds the chickens are exposed to can be harmful to their lungs. Can you confirm that? Is it something you'd worry about yourself? I know the concept of wanting "more bugs" may be foreign to most people, but as the only farm I'm aware of locally that imports slugs from friends to feed our Runner Ducks I do believe I'm at least trying to see the good and use in all creatures. (I know I'm weird - I'm also known to transplant dandelions to areas my chickens can access from locations I happen to want something else to grow.)

J.

North American Humans have been so programmed to think of bugs as "bad" and something we should be constantly trying to "reduce", that we tend to overlook the positive, essential side of bugs.

Some bugs are bad, and some are good. In a balanced system, the vast majority of them are beneficial. Even the bad ones play a role in the natural balance (they may be food for the ones you want). Too many birds for too long will throw the bug population out of whack. A balanced bug population is essential to soil health...where the chicken's food is grown!

Fencing can be key. Not fencing them in, but out of certain areas. A week before planting your vegetable plot, running the hens in there will reduce the bug population. And after harvest, letting the birds back in will help wipe out the eggs that the bugs have laid, thus reducing next seasons pest load. But you do not want them running willy-nilly through the vegetable patch during the growing season - they'll destroy everything.

I am not convinced that mold in a compost pile would be a serious problem for the birds. But, better safe than sorry if that is a concern. The most common chicken ailments are respiratory. Chickens neither sweat or piss. They eliminate excess liquids through their lungs, and also use their lungs to assist cooling in hot weather. Proper lung function is necessary for healthy birds.

Jay and John,

(On my phone and can't quote or refer to posts to correct myself.)

Thank you for your feedback!

At a backyard fowl class offered at our state university extension office, we were told not to allow the birds access to the compost pile due to the risk of botulism!

I kept thinking, "I want my chickens to scratch my compost!" Food for thought!

My house is only 1000sqft, but we have a 1 car garage and a shed. We also have some areas we hadn't planned on running the chickens through - some pre-existing zone 5 and probably our zone 1, so the estimates are probably sound.

We have 5 mature fruit trees and 10 young ones, including a mulberry, 15 blueberry plants, a 20x10ft garden (I want to rework the garden idea), a sunchoke patch, and a lot of intention to increase perennial and annual forage in each paddock (entire yard).

I do want an area of hypersecurity for unexpected containment needs. I want a portable hutch, but may start with a stationary hutch in the secured area and move them daily in their weekly paddock and back. I do want to avoid a moonscape, unless in one sacrifice area and no free range - only I poop on my sidewalk!

I plan on using the maggot bucket on a tripod as I can, to supplement their bug needs.

Going with 1000sqft/bird = 8 birds in my yard, with 5 paddocks = 8000/5 = 1600ft paddocks.

I like the info on pecking order and the poor bird at the bottom's need for sanctuary!

It's important that I do this as well as I can, as I've been critical of friends and neighbors with backyard birds, thanks to Paul's high standards.

We have 5 mature fruit trees and 10 young ones,

This area can be treated as I suggested for the vegetable plot. When the trees leaf out in the spring, let the hens in there for a week or so. They will drastically reduce any pests/larva that have hatched since winter. Again after harvest, and fallen fruits are on the ground. They will take care of most of what the pests have reproduced. With controlled intervention at both ends of the pest's life cycle, you should be able to keep pest populations well under control.

At a backyard fowl class offered at our state university extension office, we were told not to allow the birds access to the compost pile due to the risk of botulism!
I kept thinking, "I want my chickens to scratch my compost!" Food for thought!

There are many chicken owners (including commercial ones) who routinely run their hens through the compost. Chickens are great for 'turning your pile' for you - they speed up the process. I believe that the botulism concern would be valid if your compost pile has a lot of kitchen waste in it. If your compost pile is predominantly yard waste, I don't see a threat. I don't want to scare you, nor lull you into hazardous operations. In my opinion, if we raise birds in pristine conditions, it is not natural. I feel that some exposure to 'the real world' actually helps the birds develop a healthier immune system. Clearly, we do not want to expose them to danger, but by the same token, exposure to the real world can actually improve their odds of maintaining their health.

It's important that I do this as well as I can, as I've been critical of friends and neighbors with backyard birds, thanks to Paul's high standards.

Observation, observation, observation. Keep a close eye on the birds, and their environment. At the first sign of anything going in the wrong direction, either change something, or move them to a new area. After you have had the birds in your system for awhile, you will start seeing these things before they happen. You will begin making changes before problems arise.

Good luck with your fresh eggs new adventure. Having hens can be a wonderful experience.