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Land-rover golf cart dropping moringa seeds with an air well on board?  RSS feed

 
Joshua Myrvaagnes
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I just had this idea, I was thinking what could someone with lots of money actually do that wouldn't cause harm or maybe I was thinking about wanting to air condition the planet a bit since we've already heated things up more than I like, and I had this thought. It's probably been thought of before but I wanted to put it out there before I got distracted by other ideas or obstacles.

You put a solar panel on a golf cart (small panel, just to locomote) and a some kind of remote control to power it by satellite smartphone with a camera. You drive it through an area that's not habitable by humans, a desert area that no one calls home, and drop moringa seeds and some other cover crops (for variety), and then come back and water it just enough. You have people drive these every day, kids with time on their hands, over the internet. They get points for keeping a tree alive. We all get points. I think anyone over 3 understands the concept that we're all in this together anyway.

Once it's reforested a bit you can then get other species in there that are better air wells (water accumulators) themselves.

This idea has an almost total ignorance of how greening the desert operations actually occur, but I want feedback on it.
things I don't know:
* Are there any areas that are truly home to no one? the Sahara? places in the Southwest US?
* how much energy to power a satellite phone? can you operate one off a small solar panel?
* if the solar panel is big enough that it shades part of the air well will the air will still heat enough during the day to --oh, never mind.
* if there were two golf carts, one that had the smart phone and one dragged behind it with just the air well would that work?
* could a golf cart be engineered easily with a simple arm to drop a "grobox" every ten feet?
* can a MOringa actually grow in sand or is that an exaggeration?
* anything else I haven't thought through here or don't have information about
* carbon cost of shipping some golf carts overseas from Europe to Africa or from Phoenix to deserts in the Southwest
* legal or political obstacles
* a name--the Wangaari Appleseed?
* monoculture?
* has someone already come up with this exact idea only better and implemented it and I can just go to www.xxxxxx.com and contribute?
* is this too high-tech a solution for this and therefore counterproductive?
* other problems?
Thanks geniuses!
 
Steve Farmer
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Some interesting ideas. I think I see your fundamental point is how can we propagate trees in a treeless area using the resources at hand. We're discussing ideas on how to do that here http://permies.com/t/14353/plants/Reforestation-Growing-Trees-Arid-barren

I think the aim is so worthy that we can afford to burn some diesel and use some manpower rather than try to use a not yet available automated machine. You could certainly build such a machine but I think an equivalent amount of resources invested in traditional manpower and ma hinery would create so many more trees, easily offsetting the fossil uels used

The basic reason the planet has unused land where there could be trees is that people with money and time on their hands who care about this issue do t live in the desert. People who do live on unfertile treeless lands are more focused on their immediate survival than long term survival of the planet.

I think this has potential to turn into a great discussion and I'll comment more on some of your bulletpoints when I'm not typing on a touch screen
 
Steve Farmer
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What have you got in mind for a towable air well? I've theorized that an off grid dwelling with a domestic electric dehumidifier would need approx 10 sq metres of solar panels to produce 30-40 litres of water a day. I guess this could be trailerised...
 
Steve Farmer
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Just some quick comments on moringas before I go back to sleep...

I'm a couple of hundred kms from the sahara desert and I grow moringas but they're only a part of the solution. I've found the shelf life of the seeds are not great compared to other desert trees. They have low water needs but they aren't as drought tolerant as leucaena, gliricidia or certain acacias. These other trees have the added benefit of being nitrogen fixers so I would start with those instead of, or at least as well as, moringas. Have a look at the link in my signature to see some of the trees I'm planting in arid lands.
 
Joshua Myrvaagnes
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Good question, I left that part out--I was going with the basic design of the ethiopian reeds and polyester thingy that looks like modern sculpture:
Steve Farmer wrote:What have you got in mind for a towable air well? I've theorized that an off grid dwelling with a domestic electric dehumidifier would need approx 10 sq metres of solar panels to produce 30-40 litres of water a day. I guess this could be trailerised...


http://thumbs.media.smithsonianmag.com//filer/07/a0/07a0f6be-b0b5-4a4b-97c0-c0a5e9e2b846/warka_water.jpg__800x600_q85_crop.jpg

This one is supposed to do 25 gall/day; I think a smaller-sized one would be adequate.

diesel--great idea. i just don't know when it'll run out and there's no way to refuel, with PV it's always got a the Big Gas Station in the Sky.



 
Joshua Myrvaagnes
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Location: Massachusetts, 6b, urban, nearish coast, 39'x60' minus the house, mostly shady north side, + lead.
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Awesome work that you're doing Steve! and that's exciting that you're really near the Sahara. I think this helps me refine what my idea is for--it's specifically to capture a surplus of money and philanthropy into trees. It's not to design good ecosystems, to build check dams, to do other important stuff. It's probably not a very good idea; it's more like a pretty dumb idea that can be replicated in great numbers without causing harm, and where there's enough chaos inherent in it that it can't become over mono-cultural. Like that documentary Fast, Cheap and Out of Control.

I just thought of the downside--rusting electric golf carts in the desert--rusting because they have an air well capturing water and giving them something to rust about, and also because they themselves will capture a certain amount of dew in their own flywheel-effect-age over night...d'oh.
 
Joshua Myrvaagnes
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btw to be clear I think making check dams is a great idea and great use of resources, and is at a more leveraged leverage point.

Another question--where do those non-profits that plant a tree for you to offset your carbon guilt plant those trees?
 
Joshua Myrvaagnes
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Now i'm thinking there needs to be a human being there. (A human on a golf cart can go farther than one on foot). The easiest thing would be to reforest areas that are recently de-forested (go after the clear-cutting company has been, since it's closer to civilization, water and food (for the humans), etc.

Goal is to reduce carbon in the air as much as possible while also healing land and allowing humans to be happy. Many many ways to skin that cat.

 
Steve Farmer
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Joshua Myrvaagnes wrote:where do those non-profits that plant a tree for you to offset your carbon guilt plant those trees?



I dunno but I wonder if they plant them where they were going to plant them anyway and the money you send them is just extra beer, but then I'm a massive cynic
 
Steve Farmer
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Joshua Myrvaagnes wrote:It's probably not a very good idea; it's more like a pretty dumb idea that can be replicated in great numbers without causing harm, and where there's enough chaos inherent in it that it can't become over mono-cultural. Like that documentary Fast, Cheap and Out of Control.


The most practical sensible ideas aren't necessarily going to give the greatest effect. The automated/remote control golf cart idea can be picked apart and reduced into something much more boring, that would work better in theory but would never happen cos it is too boring and doesn't inspire anyone. We, as a species, have more than enough manpower and resources to forest all the deserts, quickly, without solving any engineering problems that are more difficult than humans solve routinely on a daily basis. It's just that not enough people are inspired to do it.
 
Steve Farmer
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Joshua Myrvaagnes wrote:The easiest thing would be to reforest areas that are recently de-forested


Defintely. In some places you can drop a tree seed and it will grow, those places are perhaps where you will get most bang for your buck in terms of number of surviving trees. Kostas (in the permies thread I referenced previously) has had much success just dropping seeds and letting them fend for themselves, but it doesn't work in my area.

I have to plant seedlings rather than seeds, then I have to protect the seedlings from wildlife and wind, then I have to water them during drought until they have established enough roots to make it thru a dry season on their own.

I think we have to demonstrate to people what is possible. I look forward to the day I can show before and after pictures, or more simply say look at my land and look at my neighbours land, then see if my neighbour wants a forest too.
 
Joshua Myrvaagnes
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2 things. Mmmmmmmmm, beer, and 2 I may look it up. It's true that working at the edges of what still has growth is probably easier, the soil isn't dead yet. And that's also true about the need to inspire people with a goofy idea as well as make more practical ones that work better. Hm...what about the air well thing with your project? your growoaisis-box-type-thingies have some of that effect, but what if someone donated some of those reed-polyester air wells?

Another tack I thought of was drop a person plus tent and air well and food supplies in the desert and then they stay there for a few weeks getting moorings damnyouautocorrect Moringa Oleiferas et al. growing and then come back in a year and now there's at least something to eat and they can do more...

the time delay is a drag. It would be super-nice to sequester large amounts of carbon before 2017, according to the research Dancing Rabbit shared, it's only about a year left before things will be noticeably uncomfortable.

If any one wants to steal the golf cart idea and run with it (or putt with it?) please do. We could call it Golfing the Desert.


Steve Farmer wrote:
Joshua Myrvaagnes wrote:where do those non-profits that plant a tree for you to offset your carbon guilt plant those trees?



I dunno but I wonder if they plant them where they were going to plant them anyway and the money you send them is just extra beer, but then I'm a massive cynic
 
Joshua Myrvaagnes
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From a website of a nonprofit that plants trees--this was illuminating:




PLANT-IT 2020 COMPETITIVE ADVANTAGES:

PLANT-IT 2020
THE COMPETITION
Our United States reforestation program plants seedlings with priority for non-harvest areas and provides customized city tree-planting events. Two other reforestation groups plant in both forest and city locations but in their forest locations, seedlings are routinely planted in logging areas, and their city tree-planting events offer little or no customization.
We offer the largest selection of countries worldwide where we plant trees (US and abroad) Most reforestation groups focus on one location or area - either within or outside of the United States. Two other organizations plant in both the United States and abroad but their abroad program is practically non-existent. There is one other group offering many abroad-only locations
Contributors pick the tree-planting location from our list of worldwide locations. Zero contributor control over where their funds are directed
Very low overhead It varies from low-to-exceptionally high
Many customizable urban projects worldwide where we invite various community groups and leaders who normally do not interact to get together and side-by-side plant trees. We also jointly create reforestation projects with cities. Zero customization is the norm. One other group does work extensively with numerous US cities regarding reforestation projects and education.
Our reforestation events attempt whenever possible to reduce human hunger and thirst; save endangered species; reduce the greenhouse effect; and stop desertification. US focused reforestation projects rarely directly benefit people except for the commercial financial aspects.
First and only nonprofit tree-planting organization to post online a detailed 'Code-of-Ethics' explaining what we do and do not do. Competitors do not post online their ethical standards. One wonders why.
First and only nonprofit tree-planting organization to post online a paper detailing how contributors may be deceived and/or 'ripped-off' by nonprofit tree-planting organizations. Competitors prefer to downplay or ignore scams and deceptions in our industry as doing so may lead to hard questions and less contributions received.
First and only US nonprofit reforestation foundation to distribute biochar cook stoves for needy families. These reduce poverty, eliminate demand for wood as fuel, and can be carbon-negative in their use. No other US reforestation nonprofit distributes biochar cook stoves.
SELECTING A REFORESTATION ORGANIZATION
How do you select the best reforestation organization to meet your needs? How do you determine the quality of a reforestation organization? The following is important information you need to answer these questions.
ABOUT US-BASED REFORESTATION GROUPS
US-based tree-planting groups differ in many ways and you need to know what those differences are in order to provide the 'best match' for your needs.

TREE-PLANTING LOCATIONS
US based reforestation groups fall into three categories in regards to where they plant trees.
The tree-planting group plants large city trees only in US cities and towns very close to their business location. This is by far the most common group - perhaps 96% of all US based groups.
The tree-planting group only plants tree seedlings in 1-4 non-US countries (one group has more locations). There are under ten US based groups fitting this description.
The tree-planting group plants tree seedlings and large city trees across the US; and claim an international reforestation program as well. This consists of three tree-planting groups but two of the three group's international reforestation programs are exceptionally small-to-non-existent.
Corporate sponsors need to first determine if they desire for trees to be planted in US, non-US or both types of locations. For example, if the sponsor desires to engage in reforestation projects providing one or more of the following benefits - greenhouse gas reduction (carbon offset), reducing human hunger, saving endangered species, stopping encroaching deserts, reducing human thirst, planting trees in rainforest areas and stopping landslides - then they need to either choose a group from category two above or a particular group from category three above. If the sponsor desires to engage in one-to-several US city tree-planting events then groups within categories one and three above are suitable. If the sponsor desires to plant trees in both the US and in several other countries then they would select a particular group within category three above.

SURVIVAL RATE/HARVESTING
Trees being planted are later cut down for timber harvest
Trees being planted are coppiced (branches are cut-off for use as fuel but the tree rapidly re-grows them)
Trees being planted go into non-harvest areas
The tree-planting project may combine one-to-all of these approaches.

If the trees are planted for later selective thinning then it is ideal that poor, indigenous people must specifically financially and otherwise benefit; and the forest must be proven to be sustainably managed. Quality tree-planting projects in Latin America and Africa do this.

Be aware that almost no reforestation organizations advertise which projects and to what extent the trees are harvested, coppiced and/or planted in non-harvest areas.

The survival rate concern is that you can plant lots of trees but if many of them quickly die then there is little benefit. A quality reforestation organization is focused upon maximizing long-term survival rates along with having credible methods for objectively determining what the survival rate is. The short term survival rate relates to the first several years after the tree is planted. The long term survival rate refers to how many trees live out their life expectancy. Obviously, trees planted to be later harvested in forests not practicing sustainable management will have an exceptionally poor long term survival rate so if the goal is to plant trees that best offset carbon then you want a long-lived tree that will not be harvested later on. Potential corporate sponsors need to ask what the survival rate is of a particular project and how that is calculated. Some locations such as mountaintops will naturally have a lower survival rate than fertile plains. The best method of determining survival rates is satellite analysis combined with personal inspection but usually personal inspection is all that nearly all reforestation groups are logistically able to do.

Another issue regarding survival rate is how seedlings are grown; and then transplanted and maintained after planting. The older the seedling, the more likely it is to be better transplanted. In some locations, seedlings need water, deer and weed control after transplantation so a maintenance plan and money to cover the maintenance must be in place before the planting begins. Thus, the reforestation organization should be willing to go into detail about both the survival rate and harvesting aspects of the tree-planting project. They should be able to justify why the trees will be harvested (if they will be) in a way that is both ecologically and politically correct. If you are not perfectly satisfied with their answer, go with your gut and select another tree-planting nonprofit.
SOLELY REFORESTING vs. REFORESTING AND PROVIDING OTHER SERVICES
The tree-planting group only plants trees
The tree-planting group not only provides a quality reforestation program but also may provide such things as better cooking stoves, micro-loans, and other services that are proven to significantly help a human community shift from basic survival to becoming a thriving community.
Groups only or predominantly planting trees in the US, Canada or other 1st world countries tend to focus solely upon reforestation. Groups focusing their efforts in Latin America, Africa and SouthEast Asia tend to be the ones providing these additional services and approaches. It is a more comprehensive and integrated approach towards improving both human and nonhuman ecological systems while providing greater PR value.
BASIC INFORMATION
The goal is greenhouse gas reduction/carbon sequestration You plant large-boled, leafy, fast growing, long-lived, non-harvested trees South of the US closer to the equator. Anything less may not do the job while simultaneously earning negative publicity.
The goal is to sponsor a US city tree-planting event. Be prepared to 'shell-out' $3,500 to $6,000 to be the sole sponsor of a typical small event. Expect to plan and pay for it the year before to avoid 'snafus' along with necessary ordering and other timing issues. Most reforestation groups provide few choices and customization so you need to find out what different groups are willing to do. Projects also vary in PR value so you need to pick your project carefully. High PR cannot be guaranteed as weather and other unforeseen situations can suddenly change at the last minute a high PR urban reforestation event into a low one. If the group is a 501(c)(3) nonprofit then you can write-off the cost as a contribution.
SUMMARY
Plant-It 2020 provides both city and public forest tree-planting events; US and abroad locations; the largest selection of locations; contributor selection of locations; priority for non-harvest in the US and abroad tree-planting; carbon sequestration reforestation programs; custom corporate programs; science-based tree-planting; reforestation events with a 'Human Improvement' emphasis; and PR assistance for corporations - all with a sterling reputation in the industry.
 
Joshua Myrvaagnes
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Which trees sequester carbon the fastest? My thought in picking Moringa was that since it grows fast it must be turning a LOT of carbon into a bunch of tree, and fast. So that even if it's not the hardiest, it's one to favor. What about the other candidates?
 
Steve Farmer
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Joshua Myrvaagnes wrote:My thought in picking Moringa was that since it grows fast it must be turning a LOT of carbon into a bunch of tree, and fast. So that even if it's not the hardiest, it's one to favor


Good point, the Moringas ARE FAST. I plant seeds in plastic incubators (ok they are sandwich boxes from the chinese shop) on the terrace at home then move the seedlings into pots or bags in my garden, then transfer them to the desert plot after a week or 3. The garden is higher up the mountain (the island is one big mountain - in fact it's Spain's highest peak and the world's third largest volcano) and gets more cloud, lower temps and less wind than the desert plot. I also apply water from the hose pipe as needed at home.

The moringas in the garden are noticeably faster growing than the supremely easy-to-germinate-and-keep-alive Leucaena Leucocephalas. The moringas have thicker stems and at least 25% more height. But, and this is pretty important, ALL the moringas at the desert plot are DEAD. And the vast majority of the Leucaenas are still alive. I take that as a hint that I have lots to learn about keeping moringas alive so I won't put all the blame on the trees, but they really could have tried harder. There ccould be unknown factors at work like my soil PH is right for one tree and not for the other, apart from the fact that I don't have any soil. Maybe moringas just don't like rock and would do better in sand, more experimentation needed. I haven't given up on them, and I do like the fact that you can start eating them when they are less than a month old.

If you're looking for fast growing you will love the OP 367 hybrid poplar. These slightly outpace the moringas but they need a little more water and go dormant and leafless for 4-6 mths of the year. Massively easy to propagate from cuttings.

Would I like a reed-polyester airwell? Depends if they work, I haven't seen anything that says they work or anything scientific that suggests they might work. I'll keep an open mind but if given the choice I'd go for the PV panels plus electric dehumidifier. Perhaps better I've got a paper design for a solar recharged desiccant based atmospheric water condenser that I might even try to build one day.
 
Joshua Myrvaagnes
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Cool. Also have you tried putting a rock next to the seedling on the south side? a little condensation and shade. I think the air well thing is worth making in a quick-and-dirty fashion, if you have reeds or scraps and can get anything going. It's smart to be skeptical, I will see if I can find out anything about those air wells. What seems reasonable is that that amount of water can be sequestered from that much air. Oh, fake trees, that was my other idea, for shade. Oh--OR you plant the poplars or the leucanas first to make shade, then interplant with Moringa so they can take advantage of the shade and maybe a little dew drop-off or trees-helping-trees-with-masonic-handshakes-system thingy. You know,the mother tree thing. Just throwing stuff at the wall to see if anything sticks.

thanks for all the information!
 
Steve Farmer
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My species strategy is...

Leucaena Leucocephala - they are drought resistant nitrogen fixers and grow like weeds in my garden where a removed-by-previous-occupant tree dropped loads of seeds.
Acacia - similar to above.
Gliricidia Sepium - supremely drought resistant, nitrogen fixers that grow fast and supposedly easy to propagate from cuttings. Seeds suffer from rotting so I'm getting low germination
OP 367 Hybrid Poplars - fast growing, somewhat drought resistant and I've got enough on hand to make cuttings from, each tree makes tens of new trees every year.
Figs - very drought resistant, create food, big root system, and baby fig trees keep popping up for free around the base of the fig trees in my and my neighbours gardens.
Delonix Regia - fairly drought resistant, look nice, and there are loads of them about locally for me to take seed pods from, tho the seed pods have to go to the workshop to be opened in a vice with hammer and saw.
Moringa, fairly drought resistant, leaves are good food source, quick growers, seeds cheap to buy tho fussy about how they are kept and how soon they are planted.
Prickly pears - can go 12+ mths without water, good for boundary as forms impenetrable barrier, gets left alone by wildlife, easy to propagate.
Blackberries - fairly drought resistant, fruits are healthy and taste great, wildlife leaves it alone mostly, easy to propagate.
Plocama pendula - native tree growing at plot already without help, but only growing a couple of feet high, I have been encouraging these by watering them to see if I can get them to proper tree height.

Yes its a case of throwing lots of mud and seeing what sticks. Basically I'll grow anything that will grow, there's no such things as weeds here. My enemies are bare ground and solid rock. I want whatever I can get above ground for shade and below ground to split the rock and deposit organic material. As the soil, shade and windbreaks grow, I'll be adding papayas, mulberry and banana trees, familiarizing myself with these in the garden already. There are a couple of palm trees but these are slow growing & relatively thirsty so they're experimental/decorative.
 
joshua cockroft
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Joshua Myrvaagnes wrote:

''You put a solar panel on a golf cart (small panel, just to locomote) and a some kind of remote control to power it by satellite smartphone with a camera. You drive it through an area that's not habitable by humans"

I have no experiance with a unmaned systems, but i have used a p.v golf cart for two week a year for four years on a massive dryed lake bed. we use 615watts of P.v and 300 amp hrs of batteries, in return we used the cart everyday on adverage 30 miles and powering tools, never once had to use any other engery source to repower the battery bank.
one time we did use to much power and had to ditch the cart a mile away from camp. in the morning we walk back and sun did out work for us while we had breakfest, so all we had to do when we got there was drive back to camp!
i love P.V carts!
http://d31erm66v9u4gr.cloudfront.net/sites/default/files/imagecache/installation_cover/installations/solar-car.jpg
 
Joshua Myrvaagnes
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Wow, thanks for this information, Joshua! That's great to hear.

One of the many things I haven't figured out is what surfaces the golf cart can actually go on--sand would be harsh on a cart, right?

It also makes me wonder why deserts form with sand, why doesn't all the sand eventually blow off and leave bare bedrock? what are the stabilizing or balancing factors in play in a desert system? observe observe observe

But back to you--did you use the cart for planting trees? are you trying to re-forest the lakebed? what's your goal with being there?

Thanks again
joshua cockroft wrote:
Joshua Myrvaagnes wrote:

''You put a solar panel on a golf cart (small panel, just to locomote) and a some kind of remote control to power it by satellite smartphone with a camera. You drive it through an area that's not habitable by humans"

I have no experiance with a unmaned systems, but i have used a p.v golf cart for two week a year for four years on a massive dryed lake bed. we use 615watts of P.v and 300 amp hrs of batteries, in return we used the cart everyday on adverage 30 miles and powering tools, never once had to use any other engery source to repower the battery bank.
one time we did use to much power and had to ditch the cart a mile away from camp. in the morning we walk back and sun did out work for us while we had breakfest, so all we had to do when we got there was drive back to camp!
i love P.V carts!
http://d31erm66v9u4gr.cloudfront.net/sites/default/files/imagecache/installation_cover/installations/solar-car.jpg
 
Joshua Myrvaagnes
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Cool, wow! what else do you need most at this point in your project?
curious also, do you have a system for evaluating progress? what measures can you use easily, what measures would be more trouble to come by than they're worth but it would be nice to have them? are there any ways of doing things "stupider" that would be more effective? any intuitions about it even without any seeming logic?

Had another idea for you but I'm forgetting it now...I did look at your Facebook page but I didn't read the summary, I'll take another look at some point.


Steve Farmer wrote:My species strategy is...

Leucaena Leucocephala - they are drought resistant nitrogen fixers and grow like weeds in my garden where a removed-by-previous-occupant tree dropped loads of seeds.
Acacia - similar to above.
Gliricidia Sepium - supremely drought resistant, nitrogen fixers that grow fast and supposedly easy to propagate from cuttings. Seeds suffer from rotting so I'm getting low germination
OP 367 Hybrid Poplars - fast growing, somewhat drought resistant and I've got enough on hand to make cuttings from, each tree makes tens of new trees every year.
Figs - very drought resistant, create food, big root system, and baby fig trees keep popping up for free around the base of the fig trees in my and my neighbours gardens.
Delonix Regia - fairly drought resistant, look nice, and there are loads of them about locally for me to take seed pods from, tho the seed pods have to go to the workshop to be opened in a vice with hammer and saw.
Moringa, fairly drought resistant, leaves are good food source, quick growers, seeds cheap to buy tho fussy about how they are kept and how soon they are planted.
Prickly pears - can go 12+ mths without water, good for boundary as forms impenetrable barrier, gets left alone by wildlife, easy to propagate.
Blackberries - fairly drought resistant, fruits are healthy and taste great, wildlife leaves it alone mostly, easy to propagate.
Plocama pendula - native tree growing at plot already without help, but only growing a couple of feet high, I have been encouraging these by watering them to see if I can get them to proper tree height.

Yes its a case of throwing lots of mud and seeing what sticks. Basically I'll grow anything that will grow, there's no such things as weeds here. My enemies are bare ground and solid rock. I want whatever I can get above ground for shade and below ground to split the rock and deposit organic material. As the soil, shade and windbreaks grow, I'll be adding papayas, mulberry and banana trees, familiarizing myself with these in the garden already. There are a couple of palm trees but these are slow growing & relatively thirsty so they're experimental/decorative.
 
Joshua Myrvaagnes
pollinator
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Location: Massachusetts, 6b, urban, nearish coast, 39'x60' minus the house, mostly shady north side, + lead.
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Wow, deserts are weird. Some are just rock, others are sand because of eroding rock and sand blowing across the rock eroding the rock more (this is Wikipedia). Animals can hibernate until the rare rains. Flash floods can occur.

Also of importance, there's shade possibly coming to the Sahara--Big Solar has decided to power Europe's energy by putting solar panels there. Or they're talkingabout anyway. But that would mean a lot of shade in the desert, and that would mean temperature differentials and that would mean...something condensing, I think. And the potential for planting trees in the shade of these. However, that is not low-hanging fruit politcally, since now the land is *owned* and desirable again and they don't want trees shading their PV panels.

ON the flip side, some professor estimates they only need %10 of the area of the Sahara to power the world's energy needs. So even if they do steal from Africa, again, they won't need the other 90%, so the land rover can go on planting over there.
 
joshua cockroft
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joshua cockroft wrote:I dont know how many permies have heard of burning man festival. A week long art festival in the middle of nowhere on a dry lake bed, every year there is a gaint pop up city built on a empty site to desapair and leave no trace at the end of the week. During the event there is a lot of examples of off grid tech ( every year i help build a 20wk termporary solar array) also interesting desert shelters, radical example of gifting economy and awe inspiring art. Burning Man is far from a sustainable and no way a permaculture event but it's a very interesting event!
holy cow.. To my point there are many P.V cart being used as transportion.

check out this link and be mind blown
im super proud of the solar array I work with , you can see it half down the page!

https://www.google.com/search?q=solar+art+car+burning+man&client=tablet-android-acer&prmd=niv&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAmoVChMI6JyGz8-JyQIVU-NjCh0mCg4V#tbm=isch&q=solar+art+car+burning+man+

 
Steve Farmer
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Location: South Tenerife, Canary Islands (Spain)
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forest garden greening the desert trees
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Joshua Myrvaagnes wrote:Cool, wow! what else do you need most at this point in your project?


MOstly I need rain.

But then I have a list of milestones in rough order - a water tank, fence to stop theft, a basic building with a toilet and storage, solar panels, maybe connection to the agriculture water supply, some ducks.
Obviously more trees in on the list but these are fairly easy to put in, its a case of planting them at a rate that is sustainable in terms of my available time to tend to them and the amount of water I can get to them until they have established roots capable of surviving solely on rainwater.

But at the moment I am stuck on a legality with the ownership paperwork and until that is sorted I can't get permission for a tank, a storeroom, connection to water or fencing. It's in the hands of a professional and should be reslved in my favour, but things move slow here.
 
Joshua Myrvaagnes
pollinator
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Location: Massachusetts, 6b, urban, nearish coast, 39'x60' minus the house, mostly shady north side, + lead.
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Cool, thanks for listing those out. OK, OK, for rain, what about full-grown sugar palms in pots, a large enough fleet of them to draw rain, create a little microclimate and jumpstart the area around them?
 
Joshua Myrvaagnes
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Location: Massachusetts, 6b, urban, nearish coast, 39'x60' minus the house, mostly shady north side, + lead.
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https://www.openpermaculture.com/permaculture-fundamentals/permaculture-ethics-3 -- you may need to sign up for their free membership thing -- Fukuoka apparently suggested flying planes over the desert with bags of a whole variety of seeds. (Larry Korn). Let nature do the selection. He said drop them where you see even a little water. So the general idea seems to have some support from him. Of course, if there's water there's already an oasis growth, no? I'm not sure whether this was a plan he had fully fleshed out or just a remark.
 
Steve Farmer
Posts: 397
Location: South Tenerife, Canary Islands (Spain)
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How about combining the solar golf cart with drones like these

https://www.facebook.com/futurism/videos/536922609820276

The drones do the work of planting seeds and the golf cart is a solar panel equipped base station where the drones land and recharge. If 20 drones can fit in a golf cart maybe 16 would plant seeds, 2 would be scouts and 2 would have laser weapons for deterring theft/vandalism and goats.
 
He loves you so much! And I'm baking the cake! I'm going to put this tiny ad in the cake:
Learn, Design, Teach, & Inspire with Permaculture games.
FoodForestCardGame.com
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