• Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic
permaculture forums growies critters building homesteading energy monies living kitchen purity ungarbage community wilderness fiber arts art permaculture artisans regional education experiences global resources the cider press projects digital market permies.com all forums
this forum made possible by our volunteer staff, including ...
master stewards:
  • Nicole Alderman
  • raven ranson
  • Jocelyn Campbell
  • Julia Winter
stewards:
  • paul wheaton
  • Burra Maluca
  • Devaka Cooray
garden masters:
  • Anne Miller
  • Pearl Sutton
  • Joylynn Hardesty
  • Shawn Klassen-Koop
gardeners:
  • Joseph Lofthouse
  • Bill Crim
  • Mike Jay

Interested in Forming a Community in New Hampshire, White Mountains National Forest Area  RSS feed

 
Posts: 18
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
This is more just a question than a topic but (it could become a lot of topics I guess)...
Is there any interest in the permies world into collaborative development of land that is not being used but is owned by someone else ("squatting")?
potentially nomadic habitation
 
pollinator
Posts: 554
Location: SW Missouri, Zone 7a
77
books chicken dog duck food preservation forest garden goat homestead cooking trees woodworking
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Alex Michaud wrote:This is more just a question than a topic but (it could become a lot of topics I guess)...
Is there any interest in the permies world into collaborative development of land that is not being used but is owned by someone else ("squatting")?
potentially nomadic habitation



THOUGHT #1:
If I am reading this correctly, you are suggesting developing land that does not belong to you merely because the present owner is not using it? You may call that squatting, but I would call it trespassing and illegal occupation. As a landowner whose land is primarily "not being used" because I like it the way it is and want it to remain a natural space, I find this sort of thing (especially if it catches on) alarming. Casual observers do not, indeed, CANNOT always know what a landowner has in mind for their land and have no right, in any case, to decide that it is not in use or that their own vision for it is a better one.

Even if, by some stroke of luck, you could get by with developing some sort of collaborative (not sure what you have in mind there--growing vegetables, fruit trees, building a village?) on someone else's property, would you really want to live and potentially profit from something so tentative? You might just get to a stage in the development where all the work is done and you are beginning to reap the rewards of your investment in money and labor, only to have the owner come out with the sheriff and evict you. Have you considered contacting the owner about openly purchasing the land instead of trying to squat on it? Or have you looked around in the same area? There may be other, similar properties for sale. Buy your land instead of "borrowing" it from an unsuspecting owner, then you won't have to worry about being shut down just as you're gearing up.


THOUGHT #2:
I realize that your intention may not be long term, however, based on your "potentially nomadic habitation" ending to the comment. Are you suggesting "squatting" in more than one place and moving say, seasonally, to take advantage of naturally produced crops like wild berries, nuts, acorns, etc. (in the way our hunter/gatherer ancestors did)? I think this is an intriguing idea, but I would still stay away from unauthorized squatting. Maybe you could find a way to locate suitable properties across the country and make some sort of registry of owners who will allow the temporary/seasonal use of the land--so long as it is respected and not damaged by your considered use of it.

For example, where I live, many people have black walnut trees in their yards or along fence rows. They hate them! (I do NOT understand that mindset, but there it is.) They actually pay people to come out and rake up the "messy" walnuts and haul them off to the landfill. You could volunteer to do that job but keep the nuts for your own use--in exchange for being allowed to camp out in their field for a week. I'm sure you could find similar situations with other nuts and berries that modern, grocery-store only eaters, would find annoying. (I hear people complaining about berries near their driveways, for instance, because the birds eat the berries then defecate on their cars, leaving big purple piles of excrement all over.) Or maybe you could become a summer goatherd--moving with the flock and camping out to protect them while they clear brush in a remote area. Farm working is another possibility. Most places that employ migrant help also offer a place to stay during the harvesting season. Heck, I would let you come spend a summer camping here if you would help me pull weeds, clear brush and cut firewood!

Anyway ... If a nomadic lifestyle was my aim, I think I would locate properties and potential situations to exploit (in a win-win way) across the country, then work out a schedule for being in the right place at the right time. Work your way through a year, then start over.
 
Alex Michaud
Posts: 18
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
My thoughts regarding squatting were more along the lines of living in the national forest and moving between multiple shelters made of natural materials with a small group of people essentially trying to support the ecosystems present there and increasing the presence of species which provide appropriate foods for humans. That came from reaching out to multiple communities over the course of years and being ignored by nearly all of them combined with the fact that ownership is an invisible structure that can easily be dismantled by a variety of environmental changes and it doesn't make sense in my opinion to spend the amount of time it'd take to get money to spend on the concept of ownership when I could just try to find somewhere to live where my presence won't disturb anyone. Then of course I think it would be exceedingly difficult to live in that manner alone so I thought, why not try and find other people who may be in a similar situation as myself even though that seems really unlikely?

Since I made this post I have fortunately found what seem to be a couple promising connections near where I was hoping to go to help other people with their regenerative design projects in exchange for a place to camp during the warm season.
since those things came up I definitely would prefer a collaborative arrangement rather than going alone into the mountains and either surviving somehow or dying out there alone.
 
pollinator
Posts: 1223
Location: northern northern california
88
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
i must admit i have had the thought. in my thought though you need a critical mass of people.  at least a few thousand.
maybe the vision is more performance art/protest than actual long term viability.

i can say that the area of northern california where i have lived for the last 5 years, people are able to do what you are talking about legally. most of the klamath siskiyou mountains are national forest, and people are allowed to camp out for free, legally and openly, in any one spot for 2 weeks.

i suppose that would really be 2 weeks from when youre first seen, and i have known some people to stay in a remote spot for a few months at a time.
and theres a lot of tiny dirt roads to explore, old homesteads and awesome spots by the rivers.

it's a pretty intense way to live though.

this is one of the things i like the most about the klamath siskiyou mountains, one of the only places you can just pick out a spot and just be, no one asking you what youre doing ...like you can just be somewhere, enjoy nature.
 
Deb Stephens
pollinator
Posts: 554
Location: SW Missouri, Zone 7a
77
books chicken dog duck food preservation forest garden goat homestead cooking trees woodworking
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Alex Michaud wrote:My thoughts regarding squatting were more along the lines of living in the national forest and moving between multiple shelters made of natural materials with a small group of people essentially trying to support the ecosystems present there and increasing the presence of species which provide appropriate foods for humans. That came from reaching out to multiple communities over the course of years and being ignored by nearly all of them combined with the fact that ownership is an invisible structure that can easily be dismantled by a variety of environmental changes and it doesn't make sense in my opinion to spend the amount of time it'd take to get money to spend on the concept of ownership when I could just try to find somewhere to live where my presence won't disturb anyone. Then of course I think it would be exceedingly difficult to live in that manner alone so I thought, why not try and find other people who may be in a similar situation as myself even though that seems really unlikely?

Since I made this post I have fortunately found what seem to be a couple promising connections near where I was hoping to go to help other people with their regenerative design projects in exchange for a place to camp during the warm season.
since those things came up I definitely would prefer a collaborative arrangement rather than going alone into the mountains and either surviving somehow or dying out there alone.



I admit that living a primitive life in the forest is very appealing--it has occurred to me to do this very thing since I was 16 and lived near the Withlacoochee forest in Florida. I spent most days there wading through swamps and palmettos, just enjoying the lushness and complexity of the natural system far from human habitations. At 61, I currently own land adjacent to Mark Twain National Forest in SW Missouri and spend a great deal of my time wandering and pondering there. So ... I understand the urge to go into the forest and become one with it.

What I wonder about--and what worries me--is what you envision as "support [for] the ecosystems present there and increasing the presence of species which provide appropriate foods for humans". Forests are complex systems within which a great many species--plant and animal--have evolved together. Changing those systems in any way that disproportionately favors provision for humans is bound to mean lessening the provision for something else. By creating a habitation for yourself and others, you also alter established systems--such as plant communities you invariably cover up with your dwelling; you create paths or use existing paths and establish a presence that may alter the way wildlife feels about that area and which could cause them to leave or change their habits--possibly to their detriment. (They aren't going to like you there, even if you mean them no harm. If you intend to hunt them, you will definitely alter that habitat for them!) There is also the obvious problem that what YOU may think of as "supportive" may have very little to do with what a dynamic ecosystem needs or can handle.

I also wonder why you feel the need to do this en masse. The burden you, as only one human being will lay on a given area through building, planting and hunting will be increased disproportionately by bringing along a group to help you with the enterprise. If being alone in a natural, unaltered wilderness disturbs you, why not just live in town or collect a group of people together and buy a farm where you can build and plant whatever you like with minimal impact to existing natural systems? (And I absolutely reject the notion that Leila postulates ... specifically, that living as you envision would require a "critical mass of people ... at least a thousand". THAT is a town, not a wilderness camp.)

You mention that the effort and money it takes to purchase something is not worth your time-- you said, "ownership is an invisible structure that can easily be dismantled by a variety of environmental changes and it doesn't make sense in my opinion to spend the amount of time it'd take to get money to spend on the concept of ownership when I could just try to find somewhere to live where my presence won't disturb anyone". First, and please pardon my bluntness, but that just sounds like babblespeak for laziness to me. Of course, things change. So what? And of course, ownership of land is more like renting or borrowing (as most native peoples see it) but in this day and age, there are conventions that more or less have to be followed whether we personally agree with them or not. There is only so much space to go around and what little there is generally is either already claimed by someone or it belongs to everyone (aka public land like national forests). When you elect to take something that belongs to all of us and make it your own, it's a bit like shoving your way to the head of the line. By what right should you get to forego the hard work of earning your chunk of Earth like the rest of us, and then altering our common property to suit yourself? Who says your "presence won't disturb anyone"? If you decided to set up your village in the forest next door to me, where I have spent the last 25 years wandering and enjoying nature alone, I would definitely be disturbed! The last thing I want to find in a forest is a subdivision, however primitive the dwellings may be.

I know you probably don't want to hear these things, but in my opinion, you should find a place you love, buy a piece of land (with a group, if you feel it is necessary to make it happen faster) and pursue your dream of simple living there. Leave the public forests to nature and to those of us who prefer not to encounter squatter villages on our walks.
 
steward
Posts: 4409
Location: Zones 2-4 Wyoming and 4-5 Colorado
284
bee books forest garden fungi greening the desert hugelkultur
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Alex, sort of like THIS MAN ?
 
Posts: 71
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I thought of this guy when I first read the thread.
2076835_mossy-mess_7hqdjmj4am3d2cszxsyeykq4xpncurxrbvj6lwuht2ya6mzmafma_610x457.jpg
[Thumbnail for 2076835_mossy-mess_7hqdjmj4am3d2cszxsyeykq4xpncurxrbvj6lwuht2ya6mzmafma_610x457.jpg]
 
Alex Michaud
Posts: 18
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
the beauty of reality pales in comparison to imagination, unfortunately. but I'm not still trying to do this.
 
Don't mess with me you fool! I'm cooking with gas! Here, read this tiny ad:
DIY solar dehydrator - have you built one?
https://permies.com/t/90672/DIY-solar-dehydrator-built
  • Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic
Boost this thread!