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permaculture

Are OG-certified heirloom seeds worth the cost?

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posted 13 years ago

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So I’ve been trying to find one good site to order all the quality heirloom seeds I want rather than going to multiple sources. I like the following site because of the variety they have however things start to get pricey when you pick the OG “certified organic” seeds. I could see someone buying soybeans in the US and wanting to be sure their seeds are certified but it seems a little redundant when considering older heirloom varieties. For example, the “Hearts of Gold Cantaloupe” goes for $2/g of seed whereas an OG gram goes for $2.75. I doubt any of the seeds are GM so does this mean that the OG seeds, or the plants they came from, have never come in contact with chemical fertilizers or pesticides? I can’t decide whether or not this is just some gimmick to support the costs to get the certification in the first place. So I have two questions:

A) Has anyone ordered from these guys?

B) Is the extra $0.75 in certification worth it?

http://sustainableseedco.com/home.php

Thanks,
CSR

Emerson White

Posts: 1206

Location: Alaska

posted 13 years ago

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If they are selling heirlooms you don't have to worry about GMOs, since they would not be the variety you want. Honestly there isn't much of anything that they could wind up spraying on the crop that would carry through the seed and then be in high enough concentrations in the seeds of that adult plant of the next generation to matter. I think that the impetus for it is for people to feed like their seeds are being produced in an environmentally friendly matter, even though USDA organic isn't necessarily the most green thing even invented.

Mekka Pakanohida

Posts: 383

Location: Zone 9 - Coastal Oregon

posted 13 years ago

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carl_sagan_returns wrote:
So I’ve been trying to find one good site to order all the quality heirloom seeds I want rather than going to multiple sources. I like the following site because of the variety they have however things start to get pricey when you pick the OG “certified organic” seeds. I could see someone buying soybeans in the US and wanting to be sure their seeds are certified but it seems a little redundant when considering older heirloom varieties. For example, the “Hearts of Gold Cantaloupe” goes for $2/g of seed whereas an OG gram goes for $2.75. I doubt any of the seeds are GM so does this mean that the OG seeds, or the plants they came from, have never come in contact with chemical fertilizers or pesticides? I can’t decide whether or not this is just some gimmick to support the costs to get the certification in the first place. So I have two questions:

A) Has anyone ordered from these guys?

B) Is the extra $0.75 in certification worth it?

http://sustainableseedco.com/home.php

Thanks,
CSR

Yes, it is worth it for more reasons then I could possibly write down over coffee in the morning.

GMO? More news how Corporations are enslaving our food.
http://www.naturalnews.com/031919_seed_day_farmers.html#ixzz1IHveqmAo

enslaving is a good quote from that article too.

Mekka Pakanohida

Posts: 383

Location: Zone 9 - Coastal Oregon

posted 13 years ago

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Oh and I use

http://rareseeds.com/

they have always treated me right for years.

Tyler Ludens

pollinator

Posts: 11853

Location: Central Texas USA Latitude 30 Zone 8

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posted 13 years ago

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I order my seeds from companies which have taken the Safe Seed Pledge which states they do not sell GMO seeds, but if you are going to sell Organic produce, you need to have the certified seeds, I believe.

Idle dreamer

Emerson White

Posts: 1206

Location: Alaska

posted 13 years ago

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Let me lay out my reasoning. All GMOs are mass market commercial varieties. If you are raising heirlooms then you have to rogue out other varieties. If you are roguing out other varieties then no commercial varieties will enter the gene pool. If no commercial varieties are entering the gene pool then no GMos are entering the gene pool. It's not as if certified organic seeds are all tested for GMO anyways, organic certification has a lot more to do with pesticide and herbicide use than pollen infiltration. Additionally re: certification, if you are growing commercially and you are using just 3 dollars worth of seed it's probably not worth it for you to get certified organic on your tiny tiny acreage.

Mekka Pakanohida

Posts: 383

Location: Zone 9 - Coastal Oregon

posted 13 years ago

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Emerson White wrote:
Let me lay out my reasoning. All GMOs are mass market commercial varieties. If you are raising heirlooms then you have to rogue out other varieties. If you are roguing out other varieties then no commercial varieties will enter the gene pool. If no commercial varieties are entering the gene pool then no GMos are entering the gene pool. It's not as if certified organic seeds are all tested for GMO anyways, organic certification has a lot more to do with pesticide and herbicide use than pollen infiltration. Additionally re: certification, if you are growing commercially and you are using just 3 dollars worth of seed it's probably not worth it for you to get certified organic on your tiny tiny acreage.

The link I provided does check for GMO contamination of organic seeds. Personally I would rather have food from heirloom seeds since they are more resistant to problems in the garden, and more often the not, the food tastes better then commercial / patented / GMO products.

..it's your health and your food.

Emerson White

Posts: 1206

Location: Alaska

posted 13 years ago

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How do you test every seed?

tel jetson

steward

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Location: woodland, washington

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posted 13 years ago

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there's an argument to be made that seed from plants grown organically will produce plants that are better adapted to organic practices than seeds from plants grown using synthetic chemicals. in theory, the more generations that have been grown organically, the better adapted the selected seeds will be. the impact this makes will probably depend on the plant and variety in question, but I suspect that it won't make a huge difference for most crops. that doesn't mean no difference, though.

the question of what practices you want to support with your purchase is, in this case, mostly separate from how the seeds will perform.

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Posts: 500

posted 13 years ago

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Personally as long as your not getting GMOs which you cannot readily get as a gardener unless you tried, I dont think it matters.

it is true that the seeds would be a bit better adapted to organic growing conditions, but which ones? are they your organic methods? it can make a huge difference.

I think whats most important is that they are varieties that are adapted to your location. further passive breeding could enhance that, but thats another topic.

but starting with the right varieties for a given location can be all important, and make all the difference in the world.

i would even include hybrids honestly. If you know a hybrid is good in an area, go for it. All a hybrid is, is the first generation of a cross of two varieties. Each time you make the same cross with the same varieties you will get the same hybrid. however after that first season which in the field is called the F1 generation you will get various line sups of the genetics of each parent. so you will be selecting the exact genetics within those parents that like your soil, and your climate etc. It would work a bit differently with each plant... and sometimes youll end up farther away from the starting point then you might of guessed, but youll always end up with something heavily adapted...

Old heirlooms are GREAT!!! they are often heavily adapted if you get one from a local source and its a local variety. they often store well, they often taste really good. Not to go o far off topic here, but what if you had all those traits but also bred in higher yields? or even better hardiness or cold tolerance, or whatever it is you desire.... dont get me wrong preserving the old things as they are is more then desirable, but even passively you could also choose to enhance them, and get the best of both worlds so to speak....

just throwing it out there as an option, along with the idea that without a doubt variety selection is one of the more important choices no matter what your goals are.

Emerson White

Posts: 1206

Location: Alaska

posted 13 years ago

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If you have the choice between something that's been grown organically for 5 years versus something grown on miracle grow for 5 years perhaps it could matter, but I seriously doubt that these seed companies are keeping appreciably distinct stock. I think that is an excellent reason to go with an heirloom variety over a moder commercial variety.

Mekka Pakanohida

Posts: 383

Location: Zone 9 - Coastal Oregon

posted 13 years ago

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tel jetson wrote:
there's an argument to be made that seed from plants grown organically will produce plants that are better adapted to organic practices than seeds from plants grown using synthetic chemicals. in theory, the more generations that have been grown organically, the better adapted the selected seeds will be. the impact this makes will probably depend on the plant and variety in question, but I suspect that it won't make a huge difference for most crops. that doesn't mean no difference, though.

the question of what practices you want to support with your purchase is, in this case, mostly separate from how the seeds will perform.

Excellent points, well said. For me it is also a matter of permie ethics. I want my money to go to a company like http://rareseeds.com over say Walmart seeds.

Posts: 500

posted 13 years ago

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Mekka Pakanohida

Posts: 383

Location: Zone 9 - Coastal Oregon

posted 13 years ago

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carl_sagan_returns wrote:
So I’ve been trying to find one good site to order all the quality heirloom seeds I want rather than going to multiple sources. I like the following site because of the variety they have however things start to get pricey when you pick the OG “certified organic” seeds. I could see someone buying soybeans in the US and wanting to be sure their seeds are certified but it seems a little redundant when considering older heirloom varieties. For example, the “Hearts of Gold Cantaloupe” goes for $2/g of seed whereas an OG gram goes for $2.75. I doubt any of the seeds are GM so does this mean that the OG seeds, or the plants they came from, have never come in contact with chemical fertilizers or pesticides? I can’t decide whether or not this is just some gimmick to support the costs to get the certification in the first place. So I have two questions:

A) Has anyone ordered from these guys?

B) Is the extra $0.75 in certification worth it?

http://sustainableseedco.com/home.php

Thanks,
CSR

Carl, et. all; this kinda goes for any forum, but when it comes to sensitive things such as the food you ingest, and your reasons for starting your road down permaculture I have one bit of advice.

Do not take anyone's advice as gospel (Even Paul's, Sepp's or my own). There are people out there, even on the PRI forums that post to steer you wrong on purpose, or argue for the sake of arguing. What it comes down with, reading everything with a grain of salt and figure it out for yourself since there is 2 truisms about Permaculture. Nature is your first and primary teacher. Second, it's you and your families permaculture, not some other persons permaculture.

Emerson White

Posts: 1206

Location: Alaska

posted 13 years ago

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My guess is that anyone who read any of Carl Sagan's books would be one step ahead of that advice. However It's wrong, I should be taken as gospel, now load all of your money into envelopes and send it to me, while your at it if there are any loved ones that you have who might amuse me you can put them in very large envelopes and mail them too.

George Lee

Posts: 539

Location: Athens, GA/Sunset, SC

posted 13 years ago

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Sustainableseedco.com is the shit! Love those guys. I do all my business with them. I've had great yields and excellent germination rates. They get seeds from the late 19th century and early 20th stored on Victoria island off Vancouver.

Peace -

South Carolina Hemp | Seed Swap via Letter | Livingwind.tumblr.com | sustainable seed co

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