Growing Apple Trees from Seed Naturally

hey doug
check out
zero fox trees
they are in bc

james cox wrote:hey doug
check out
zero fox trees
they are in bc

Thanks for posting this, James. It's amazing how many nursuries are lurking on the web, but not easy to find. I've searched many times in order to accumulate a list of links, but never saw this one.

Thanks for posting this, James. It's amazing how many nursuries are lurking on the web, but not easy to find. I've searched many times in order to accumulate a list of links, but never saw this one.

i posted this in another thread, may be something there too

https://permies.com/t/71390/buy-fruit-nut-trees-Canada

at the time i only had an inkling that they might be permies, turns out the owner actually spent a bit of time at wheaton labs.

Theres alot to read here. I'm going to have to come back to it later. I think that the old advice that seedling apples are bad is partially nonsense. All naturally derived apples started out as a seedling apple before they were named. Not knowing exactly what you are going to get is exciting IMO and a fun game to play if you have the space. Will it be astringent and mealy or delicious and worthy of its own cultivar name? Who knows unless you try it?

I recently purchased some asian apples grown in China from a asian market. I noticed the seeds were sprouting inside the apples so I figured why not and potted them all. I plan on planting them in the orchard in this fall. The variety translates from Chinese to English as Honey Core Snow Apple.

Another of our seedlings flowered and fruited last year. It's about 6 years old I think. I wasn't too impressed by the few apples- they were tiny and not much to taste. But maybe I'll try watering it this year. The flowers are so pretty too- giant, bushy petals and bigger than any of my regular apples.

Awesome picture Jenny! Those flowers do look amazing!

It's funny how fast time goes by.

When you hear, "Oh, growing an apple from seed can take about 7 years from seed to get fruit! That's too long and not worth it because you can't guarantee the fruit will be any good."

But it seems like we just planted that seed just the other day! I was surprised when I stopped to think about it and realized it had been six years! I had just had a baby and set two little pots with the apple sprouts on the edge of our driveway, intending to move them out to a nursery bed. But they were never moved and grew down through the plastic pot. One died but that one survived. I cut the pot off of it as much as I could a couple of years ago.

Every year since then I just randomly stick apple seedlings in places I know I won't accidentally mow them. A lot die but there's always one or two each year that survive. It's kind of like investing money. If I do it continually, the losses aren't a big deal because I have the successes that are maturing and remind me why it's so fun and rewarding to experiment with seeds.

It is my understanding that Antonovka apple grows "true" from seed. It's long been used a rootstock for grafting
as it withstands -50 below winters. It also sets a tasty yellow apple. Other "true" (or true-ish) apples I have found are
"Dolgo" crabapple, Fameuse a.k.a. Snow apple, and "Nickajack" (from North Carolina)

Kary Webb wrote:It is my understanding that Antonovka apple grows "true" from seed. It's long been used a rootstock for grafting
as it withstands -50 below winters. It also sets a tasty yellow apple. Other "true" (or true-ish) apples I have found are
"Dolgo" crabapple, Fameuse a.k.a. Snow apple, and "Nickajack" (from North Carolina)

I used Antonovka as rootstock for a few of my first grafting attempts last year. I figured that if I messed up the graft, I'd still get a yummy apple tree.

Some of this year's apple seedlings, mostly from crosses done by Steven Edholm.  I left them in the fridge too long this spring, so they were overgrown before I got them planted, but I think they've straightened out now.  I'll repot the community pots in early spring, before they leaf out again, and expect to get some good whips then.  I may do some bud grafting to get earlier fruit evaluation if I get ambitious.

My own collected seed this year will get potted in the cold frame next month.

My husband has grown some apple trees from seed. One is producing good sized apples that look good, are juicy and crisp, and have really underwhelming flavor (I'm hoping that improves with time, as some apples do). The second one seems to have gotten the worst of the drought this year and the apples are much smaller than last year's crop. The third is a very slender tree with little brown apples the size of gooseberries, which we haven't tasted. Those are the three that bear fruit so far. Some trees are "shy bearers" and take longer, so we'll keep watching the others.

The thing about growing apples from seed is that you have no idea what you're going to get. Apples have more genes than humans do, and any combination of the genes can show up in the fruit from a seedling/pippin. That's likely why so many people think apples from pippins are largely worthless, because of the unpredictability.

When you plant a seed from say a Gingergold apple, which is a cross between Golden Delicious and Newtown Pippin, the resulting seedlings aren't limited to just producing Gingergold, Golden Delicious, or Newtown Pippins, but literally any of the ancestors of those apples can show up, including whatever naturally grew on the rootstock of the ancestor trees. It's fascinating stuff!

You could plant 1,000 seedlings and end up with only one that produces good eating apples, but the wealth of variety and biodiversity in those 1000 trees would be amazing! Disease resistance, unique adaptation to climate, hardiness and long life, what kind of treasures are hidden in those seeds? Only one way to find out...plant those babies!

I went apple picking with my nieces and got a tote bag's worth of a mixture of apples.

We spent three hours today peeling, coring, and chopping apples to be frozen for future dishes. I have a crockpot of apple slices cooking down into applesauce that I'm hoping to have done here in the next few hours.

I took to peeling while my partner did the knife work and she was kind enough to save all the seeds she encountered.

It is my intent to find places to spread these seeds for the sake of spreading apple trees. It is my hope to add some diversity to the area through it!

Good, bad, or indifferent. I like playing the genetic lottery and see what might be on the other side.

Paul Wheaton is a great proponent of sowing apple seeds directly into the ground rather than planting saplings, for all the reasons mentioned here and more. They even have a half-assed holiday where they do just that. A bit of fun in the serious pursuit of infecting minds with permaculture!

In 2023 the apple tree grew vigorously and produced lots of spurs on second year wood. Does it look like the tree is going to bloom for the first time the coming spring? If so I plan on buying another apple tree in bloom from the store for cross pollination.

Those spurs look very promising! I'll bet you get some apples this year!

This thread is one of my favourites at Permies.. I found Permies while searching for information about growing apple trees from seeds!

My project of apple trees from seeds is still in the starting line. I did plant a few seeds last fall but I don't have huge hopes for those.. More seeds this fall it is!
Hopefully 2025 is the year when I have a bunch of tiny, tiny seedlings growing on my property.

I just got an extra push on this topic, as Paul just published a new video about carbon footprint by the ton. Planting apple seeds can have a huge impact! Here's a link to the video if you are interested:

I did this years ago with my Grandpa

Go to Cider Mill
Grab seeds preferably from variety you want
Sift top 25% of seeds toss the rest in the compost
You want the fattest healthiest seeds

Dig huge 100-500 yard trench... toss them all in... Then start saving the most vigorous..
Here we grafted on what we wanted.
But you could start seeing which produced what.

It's likely that 98% of population has never eaten an apple grown on it natural root stock.
What different minerals would a Natural root stock provide? Worst Case you graft a ton of apple trees.

Scott Foster wrote:The problem with liberty is finding pollinators that are also resistant to rust. (Liberty is a triploid)

https://elizapples.com/tag/fruit-exploring/
Eliza Greenman of HogTree has a great list and the story of Triploid Apples

“The large majority of US cultivars known today as being able to tolerate fireblight, apple scab, powdery mildew, and loads of other issues while still persisting in the Southern landscape for decades upon decades are triploids! Including the Dula Beauty, my sturdy family apple cultivar.”

“Here is an incomplete list of confirmed triploid apples. Many of these are from the UK and do so-so in my climate. The ones with asterisks are what I have seen as old relic trees in the Mid-Atlantic:
Arkansas Black*
Ashmeads Kernel*
Baldwin*
Belle De Boskoop
Blenheim Orange
Bramley’s Seedling
Buckingham*
Bulmers Norman
Canadian Reinette
Catshead
Close
Crimson Bramley
Crimson King
Crispin
Dula Beauty*
Fallawater*
Fall Pippin*
Frösåker
Genete Moyle
Golden Reinette von Blenheim
Gravenstein*
Hausmuetterchen
Hurlbut
Husmodersäpple
Jonagold
King David*
King of Tompkins County
Lady Finger
Leathercoat*
Margille
Morgan Sweet*
Mutsu
Orleans Reinette
Paragon*
Red Bietigheimer (Roter Stettiner)
Rhode Island Greening*
Ribston Pippin* (struggles with brown rot)
Roter Eiserapfel (Has 47 chromosomes rather than 51)
Rossvik
Roxbury Russett*
Shoëner Von Boskoop
Spigold
Stäfner Rosenapfel( Has 48 chromosomes)
Stark
Stayman*
Stayman Winesap*
Summer Rambo*
Suntan
Tom Putt
Transcendent Crab
Transparente Blanche
Vilberie
Vixin Crab
White Astrachan*
Winterzitronenapfel
Winter Pearmain
Washington Strawberry”

https://www.suttonelms.org.uk/apple-vitality.html
“Six apples as "ancestors" of the 500 examined varieties
In 274 species (55% of those investigated) the six "ancestor varieties" are represented twice or more in the family tree, in 140 varieties (28%) at least three times, in 87 varieties (17%) at least 4 times and in 55 varieties (11%) 5 times or more.

By far the most common used `ancestor variety´ for breeding is Golden Delicious (347 times crossed into a total of 255 of the examined 500 varieties), followed by McIntosh (252 times cross-bred into 174 varieties), Jonathan (167 times crossed into 154 varieties) and Cox Orange (157 times crossed into 150 varieties). Following this is Red Delicious (95 crosses in 90 varieties) and James Grieve (101 crosses in 75 species). McIntosh and Red Delicious dominate American breeding programmes, and McIntosh has had a central role in developing Columnar varieties. Cox's Orange Pippin and James Grieve are more commonly used in the European breeding programmes.”

“When the six "ancestors" are observed in non-fungicide-treated orchards and compared to other apple varieties, their defects become obvious:

- Golden Delicious is extremely susceptible to fruit and leaf scab and viruses
- Cox Orange is highly susceptible to cancer and scab , susceptible to aphids, powdery mildew, fire blight and viruses
- McIntosh is highly susceptible to scab, susceptible to cancer and mildew
-Jonathan is very susceptible to mildew and susceptible to `Jonathan-spot', fire blight and scab. Untreated foliage looks sickly.
- James Grieve is susceptible to canker, sap and leaf aphids, red spider, fire blight, and scab
- Red Delicious is moderately susceptible to scab”

“There are however orchards growing old varieties which thrive for decades relatively free of scab, even in unfavorable climatic regions or at sites where the modern dessert apple cultivars will not grow successfully. Such apples include Brettacher, Edelborsdorfer, Eifel Rambur, Finkenwerder Prinzenapfel, Jacob Fischer, Lohrer Rambur, Luxembourg triumph, Martens Seedling, Prince Albrecht of Prussia, Rhenish Winterrambur, Rote Sternrenette, Seestermüher Zitronenapfel and Zabergäu-rennet”

“Genetic predisposition is only visible in fungicide-free orchards
Two years of non-fungicide growing were carried out at Dresden-Pillnitz about a decade ago (Fischer, 2003).

Four modern varieties were found to be scab and mildew-free: Rebella, Reglindis, Remo, and Rewena.

Of the older varieties, some were found to be equally resistant, e.g. Red Sternrenette, Bittendfelder, Börtlinger wine apple, Erbachhofer, Engelsberger, Early Victoria and Cardinal Bea.”

Apple trees grown from seed have the advantage of potentially having resistance to some or all of the common diseases. And if the seeds come from the same region where they are being planted, they can be better adapted to the soil and climate there. It just seems like such a big advantage, but it comes with uncertainty about the fruit quality. I wish we could set aside our impatience and unwillingness to take chances, so that we can let apple trees regain their true nature. What if our fixation on growing the best grafted varieties is keeping us from discovering far better ones?

I am excited to announce that my apple tree is blooming! It was sprouted from seed in 2021 and only takes 3 years to flower. I bought a pink lady apple tree from the big box store and hand pollinated both of them. I am anxious to see what the fruits are going to turn out.

That's so exciting May! It really looks like it is going to produce quite a few apples so I bet you'll get a good sample!

Due to a warm February and March, the apple tree started to bloom in early April and the blossoms on the south side got cold damage. After cross pollinating with a store-bought pink lady apple, it set several fruits on later blooming branches on the north east side. It also bloomed much later on some first year growths but by that time the pink lady had no flower left.

I have four apples growing rapidly and I am eager for a taste test later in the summer.

This year we had a once-in-13-year emergence of the periodical cicadas and they loved this apple tree. The damages are seen mostly in the end of second-year wood. Smaller branches might die off later. Bigger ones may heal but I would expect a reduction in next year's crop.

Does anyone have photos of fruit growing off a store bought honeycrisp seed? I have a pretty large tree started and it’s two years old now. Just curious what apples come from these seeds.

L Isenhour wrote:Does anyone have photos of fruit growing off a store bought honeycrisp seed?

It'll depend on the characteristics of the pollen-donor. From a commercial source, that's probably a crabapple.

Welcome to Permies!

I got up this morning and the biggest apple is gone! I guess squirrel stole it so I picked the rest smaller ones. I lost the one a month ago so these two are my harvest from this 4-year old apple tree grown from seed.

They are 3 " wide and average 6 oz (170g) in weight. The color of the skin looks like that of a gala apple. I tried one, it's juicy and sweet, comparable to store bought apple.  It may needs a few more days to get sweeter but I am super happy with the outcome.

Those are awesome apples May! That growth is incredible too, I'm hoping to select for high vigor in my seedlings. So cool to see the results!

I've had some setbacks with deer and rabbit damage, but hope to taste my first seedlings in maybe two years!

In 2023 I directly sowed apple seeds into cages and still have 2 nice trees. I don't do much weeding, so I decided the trees should be at least 6" before they are placed in cages and left on their own.

I make the cages out of 1/4" hardware cloth and use them for any perennials that voles and woodchucks like to kill.
In the beginning of 2024 I made a hot house for safe seed starting and season extension. It is vole proof and easy to work in (the roof is hinged on both sides). I grew mostly apples from seed in the hot house and transplanted into pots at about 3-6". The apples stayed in pots until late summer/ fall, then some were planted in cages, given to friends, or kept in pots to overwinter in the hot house.

As of right now, I have planted 17 apples in my small yard (out of 50+ trees and over 70+ edible annual/perennial varieties). I plant everything extremely close and maintain year round living mulch by cover cropping. Most of what I grow is chop and drop soil building with plenty to bring meals into the kitchen.

I've acquired 2 acres that extends from my back yard and have already started clearing space for more planting. I've built and buried about 50 more cages and have them spaced about 3-4' apart. I will alternate planting with seedlings, cuttings, mature trees and bushes, and cover crop/ annual crop in between these rows.

I work at a restaurant and have been added hundreds of apples seeds to my hot house this winter and expect to have another 100+ seedlings to plant this coming summer.

I don't have any particular goals for what I'm doing, it's more of a compulsive curiosity. I don't mind pruning or even lethaly chopping any of my plants. I do what I need to to maintain paths and maximum photothinsasis. I will come back next winter to show this year's apples and report on their growth and habit.

Has anyone tried planting apple trees using seed balls? I'd like to plant some apple trees in places where I have easy access in winter via snowshoes and wondered if it'd be possible to have success by burying them under the snow (or just tossing them on the snow?).

We have a pill bottle we put apple seeds in. The grand daughters will plant them in spring. Then grow them out for cheap root stock for cheap bare root tree we graft. We'll them cheaper as there is no size control, disease resistance is unknown.  And fruiting is likely years off typically.

Sales of these trees reward the girls through buying them things. We have two young apple ladies now.

I was planning to start a thread, but found this one here, so it makes sense just to add to this one.

Over the last two years, we've stuck some cores in a small berm from local apples (Goodland was one of the varieties - a seedling of Patten Greening that was developed in Morden here in southern Manitoba).  With other stuff going on, I didn't confirm whether any of them grew last year...hopefully this year I'll take a closer look.

I also have some cores stored in the crisper of the fridge here as they were eaten too late to plant out.

This week, I've eaten a couple of Pink Lady (hardiness zone 5- from the store and the cores popped open and lo and behold, some seeds had germinated.  At the moment I have them in moist paper towel.  I was going to put them in potting mix, but thought it better to wait until spring planting is closer (we've just gotten another dump of snow).  Now, I think I'll peruse this thread to determine what the general wisdom may be.  While the parent wouldn't be hardy here, perhaps some of the seedlings will.  Worst case, none survive and I gain some experience and learn something.

Michael Helmersson wrote:Has anyone tried planting apple trees using seed balls? I'd like to plant some apple trees in places where I have easy access in winter via snowshoes and wondered if it'd be possible to have success by burying them under the snow (or just tossing them on the snow?).

In your neck of the woods, I'd definitely bury them under the snow to give them a better chance.  That may invite critters, but they'd be better prepared for a cold snap.  I'd imagine that most seed from fruit fall would primarily be under the snow (but I can't speak to the viability of seed from fruit that overwinters on the tree without falling).  If one is looking for success in our cold zones, I'm of the opinion to give the  young plant the best chance at success...if it turns out not to be hardy enough to survive long term it wasn't meant to be.

Good luck.

Hi, new to this thread.  I've read (ok skimmed) the whole thing.  Great info!!

We're in the PNW and have a large property we've been on for almost 5 years.  Our orchard is young, about 4 years old but we got our first fruit last year: pristine, wynoochie early, liberty, and spartan.  All tasted really good.  

I'm very intrigued at the idea of growing seedling apples (and in the meantime learning to graft and propagating rootstock to expand my orchard).  Goodness knows I have a the space and I should do it!  I've read through this thread and been scouring the internet for information but I've got questions I haven't found answers to.

First of all, everyone is talking about how growing from seed could lead to finding a wonderful new variety that does well in your local conditions.  Awesome, great, yes.  So, then.... what next?  It seems obvious you could take scionwood and then graft onto rootstock.  But then that's just propagating the same system we want to get away from, right?   Wouldn't it be better if you could just propagate the entire tree (fruiting top and roots)?  This seems obvious to me yet I'm not seeing anyone discussing the mechanics of how this is done.  How do you just propagate the tree itself?  I read some about air layering.  Is that what people are doing (or planning to do if they got a great new tree?)  If the tree was young enough would you just dig it up and create a stool bed with it?  Something less drastic I would hope?

Another question: from what I've read it seems like it's been "debunked" that apple trees just grow randomly from seed like Michael Pollan told me in his book all those years ago.  Is that true?  What I think I'm understanding from my recent reading is that if you get seeds from apples in your orchard where you have tasty varieties, and no crabapples, etc nearby, you're going to likely get crosses from those varieties, correct?  And/or you could hand pollinate somehow and know exactly what you were crossing?  

Thanks for helping set me straight!   And if anyone is in the PNW and wants to send me promising seed, I'd love to grow some out.  

Thanks,
Courtney
Oakville, WA

Welcome to Permies, Courtney!

Courtney Munson wrote:Another question: from what I've read it seems like it's been "debunked" that apple trees just grow randomly from seed like Michael Pollan told me in his book all those years ago.  Is that true?  What I think I'm understanding from my recent reading is that if you get seeds from apples in your orchard where you have tasty varieties, and no crabapples, etc nearby, you're going to likely get crosses from those varieties, correct?  And/or you could hand pollinate somehow and know exactly what you were crossing?

I wouldn't say it's debunked, but I think it's overstated and lacks nuance. As you allude to, most commercial apples are fertilized with high-pollen crabapples in order to increase yield. The result is that the seeds tend to produce undesirable trees. I think that's the main reason this idea has taken such strong hold.

The apple organism (even if we limit our discussion to the regular diploid members) displays extreme heterozygosity so that any phenotype (what you actually get in the plant and its fruit) is likely to be hiding wildly divergent genes on recessive alleles. This means that the children of a crossing often come out quite different than the parents. But still, if you have a quality father plant and a quality mother plant, and you plant a bunch of seeds, you're pretty likely to get some good trees. And if you get a healthy tree with fruit you don't like, you can graft something onto it to get apples you do like, so it's not a total loss. And you might find the next billion-dollar cultivar!

Seeds grow as their genetic coding allows them to. Highly dependant on their Ploidy type, they can have many sets of code.  In a normal diploid; you get classic egg and pollen parent sets.

I do not have time for daddling in growing seedlings for maybe something decent. There are more choices of already proven apples then most folks have land to grow them on.

Do not get me wrong. Yah for the seed planters doing the hard work of creating new apples. However compared to modern breeding they are hopelessly out gunned.

Final caveat is I will grow certain seedlings for rootstock on budget priced apple trees. We plan on Bittenfelder for a medium size tree with really good, juicy and tasty frit.

Thank you both.

Darren Robertson wrote:Final caveat is I will grow certain seedlings for rootstock on budget priced apple trees. We plan on Bittenfelder for a medium size tree with really good, juicy and tasty frit.

Tell me more about Bittenfelder and/or other varieties like it.  I have been trying to understand why Antonovka was being used so commonly as rootstock.  Is it because it apparently comes true from seed?  (How does that even work?  Does it not matter what it's planted around?)  Is that the same for Bittenfelder?  

Courtney Munson wrote:Thank you both.

Darren Robertson wrote:Final caveat is I will grow certain seedlings for rootstock on budget priced apple trees. We plan on Bittenfelder for a medium size tree with really good, juicy and tasty frit.

Tell me more about Bittenfelder and/or other varieties like it.  I have been trying to understand why Antonovka was being used so commonly as rootstock.  Is it because it apparently comes true from seed?  (How does that even work?  Does it not matter what it's planted around?)  Is that the same for Bittenfelder?  

Bittenfelder is mostly known as a cider apple . But also makes a decent eater and cooker. It is very much like Ulm Police Apple and Jadernicka. The above description fits all three. Each has flavor different. All 3 are used for their strong growth and long lives. At some point I'd like to have all three growing. All have been used for seedling rootstock for many hundreds of years.

Antonova is more of a class of apples. Not a single variety. The version sold as a rootstock here makes a medium sour cooking apple if allowed to grow. It is very cold hardy and tough. Though it is not blight proof. More like just tolerant.

Borowinski is yet another Russian apple with use as rootstock.

There are an army of crabapple around.