If space was no issue, what would be the ideal tree spacing?

Some specifics here, we are on ~100 acres, but I've selected one hill (basically everything's a hill, or cool air drainage which will negatively affect the peaches that I'd like to grow eventually) to be my primary orchard site, however the portion of the hill that will work for the orchard is roughly 5 acres.  I don't intend to make this a commercial endeavor, and frankly even 1-2 trees would probably produce more fruit than we are capable of eating, so excess will go to the future pigs, cattle, hens, and deer.  I've selected apple trees on a dwarf rootstock, keeping in mind the shallow soil on this hill (everything is pretty eroded) recommended spacing for the apples is 8', and my pears are a semi-dwarf rootstock, the recommended spacing is 18 feet, they'll be sited further down the hill where the soil is deeper.  I intend to plant the trees on contour.  Do I space the trees at 8' (and 18' respectively) on contour or is there any benefit to planting them further apart?  Obviously driving through them would be easier with more generous spacing and from a distance, they'll look a little less clustered if they're further apart.  Basically, I'm not even kind of limited on space, anything that's not orchard will be pasture, and I also have plenty of that.

I'd give them 6+ feet of space between.  They sometimes grow bigger than they're supposed to and then it's a pain to weave between them.

I'd also suggest putting in some semi dwarfs and standards as well since you have the room.  They might root just fine in that soil and be more productive.

Might be a fun time to experiment, depending on the # of trees you'd like to plant. Doesn't have to be all at one time. 5 ac is pretty big area to play in...I do like the idea of being able to drive among the general orchard area. That could mean, a truck? Then the design would be at least 8' road across the hillside first, that loops around, or with a sufficient turn around. Maybe it cuts essentially right through the middle so you can have equal access to the walking areas up or down between the trees from any point on the hill?

If you are just planning on using a 4x4 tractor or atv to access the area that will save you some road making Earth works.

Not sure if I'll be ready for plantings this year, but I plan on taking an approach of basically following the common most known spacing suggestions for 1/3, squeeze 1/3 closer, and spread 1/3 further :) That way, over the years, hopefully the "best" ways will reveal themselves by staying alive, and producing!

I figure it's pretty easy to toss my little battery powered push mower and string trimmer on the back of the atv and drive over to the orchard area for some closer maintenance by hand instead of worrying about fitting the tractor anywhere between the trees. I guess the scale of things is a determining factor but sounds like your staying small.

Oh and I wanted to add one more thing...I'm in the planning stages too and pondering between these two things.

Plantings more "clustered" like you said, in patches maybe 50'x50' made into the hillside, just off the main access road.

Or...

Plantings on contour in more of a "line" like fashion along the road. And, I guess along contour like that in as many rows as you desire across the whole hillside?

I'm really into the "1/3" 's idea of things and that applies to roads too...a high road, middle road, and low road system would be ideal to meander through your 5ac hillside!!

I too am in KY and the slopes of old hay fields and spotty woody sections are just ripe for a beautiful food forest experience...trying to make mine where people with less mobility can still get to the wild areas without mountain climbing!

I'm trying to get some trees in, and I expect that since I'm not into much pruning, the trees are going to grow larger than what the "experts" suggest. The two apple trees I just got in are a good 20 ft apart, but there's a baby Saskatoon berry in between. This will hopefully allow enough sun as they grow for the pair of Black Currents that are already in to the west of the line between the trees, and a 3rd I'd like to get in. Similarly, I've planted some strawberries as ground cover and they like sun also, so part of your decision could rest on whether you want to give your fruit trees some bushy friends to keep them company and spread out the pollinator feed. In my area, many of the more commercial organic orchards have gone big into dandelion as the ground cover (is that a shift from recent patterns or what???). However, in my area, the big reason for that is the increasing understanding of how endangered our pollinators are.

In general for poor or thin soil you want a vigorous rootstock not a dwarf one, dwarf rootstocks require near perfect condition with good and rich soil to grow.

What do you want to use the ground under them for? Spacing them wide apart will mean you have to maintain a lot more land, if you're intending on mowing I would space them some multiple of common mower widths. My trees are on MM107 which is nearly full size so they will get to about 16ft high and round so my trees are spaced 16ft apart, the canopies should just touch at full size. I don't grow anything under them deliberatly there is in effect a wildflower meadow there.

Go look at hogtree.com.  Eliza has a lot of experience in using fruit trees to feed livestock.

It may be too late if you have already bought your trees, but I would second Skandi's comment about tree size.
I'm not precisely in apple tree paradise here, but have planted a few trees anyway. There are two schools of thought for sites like mine - you either get a dwarfing rootstock and give the tree as much coddling and shelter as you can, or you get a vigorous rootstock and give the tree as much coddling and shelter as you can (!). I did the latter, most of mine are on M25 rootstock, which is the most vigorous that seems to be available in the UK, I only managed to get one tree on it's own rootstock. I created earth mounds to try and give the trees more soil and drainage, the shelterbelt is still developing. Five years on and the trees are only a little bigger than they started. The one on it's own roots is actually doing more poorly than the others.  I'm hoping they will all do better in future (I did actually get a few apples this year at least!) but there are many factors in how big the trees will grow.
If you have neighbours with apple trees it may be worth seeing how they grow near you, and help visualise the trees full size. I'm sure you will get miles better growth than me anyhow if you have sufficient moisture.

Some other resources:

Mark Shepard, New Forest Farm, author of "Restoration Agriculture", "Water for any Farm"

Stephan Sobkowiak, Miracle Farms, "The Permaculture Orchard" on YouTube

Mike Haasl wrote:I'd give them 6+ feet of space between.  They sometimes grow bigger than they're supposed to and then it's a pain to weave between them.

I'd also suggest putting in some semi dwarfs and standards as well since you have the room.  They might root just fine in that soil and be more productive.

I second the notion of standards and semi dwarves. They're longer lived, more drought tolerant, and in general much more resilient trees

James Landreth wrote:I second the notion of standards and semi dwarves. They're longer lived, more drought tolerant, and in general much more resilient trees

If you want some quick results and can afford to spend the money on dwarf stock, have you considered marking out short-term and long-term locations and starting a bunch of seeds in the long-term locations?

Kenneth mentioned Mark Shepard, and I believe he planted many trees from seed, but he used the inter-tree areas for annuals and short-term crops while he waited for the fruit/nut trees to sprout and produce. That way he had food and profit to support his land while he waited for production. I recall he uses fruit for cider and animal feed on top of selling as fresh fruit, so he isn't concerned if a tree produced fruit that wasn't useful for eating or baking.

What I'm suggesting you consider is dwarf trees for quick production, and direct seed for longer term production.

If you do go the dwarf direction, I'd also suggest you start stockpiling punky wood that isn't allelopathic. I bought an espalier dwarf Asian Pear because I had a spot where a short tree would work that something bigger wouldn't. I keep adding more wood chips around it's base, but also bigger chunks on the path north of it, and unlike a commercial orchard, I now only need to water it about once per month during our drought. The fruit is smaller as a result, but there is enough that with just 3 people eating it, there's still plenty. The fruit has a more intense flavor if it has to work for a living!

I recommend the peaches Bea zone 2 tree at the most. Close enough to enjoy the bloom and observe the ripening, perhaps sheltered by evergreens and buildings.

Cole Tyler wrote:Oh and I wanted to add one more thing...I'm in the planning stages too and pondering between these two things.

Plantings more "clustered" like you said, in patches maybe 50'x50' made into the hillside, just off the main access road.

Or...

Plantings on contour in more of a "line" like fashion along the road. And, I guess along contour like that in as many rows as you desire across the whole hillside?

I'm really into the "1/3" 's idea of things and that applies to roads too...a high road, middle road, and low road system would be ideal to meander through your 5ac hillside!!

I too am in KY and the slopes of old hay fields and spotty woody sections are just ripe for a beautiful food forest experience...trying to make mine where people with less mobility can still get to the wild areas without mountain climbing!

Yeah, I'm pretty set on planting on contour, but I'd like the ability to get our mower between trees, so I'm considering adding at least the width of the mower ((and by default, the side by side) between trees just to ensure we can get through without running through the branches of the trees in the future.

Our land is almost completely hills, so finding flat spaces to site anything on is a struggle and ends up being a balancing act of retaining our stunning view, my husband's target shooting lines, and still putting things where they'll be useful.  

Of course i don't have any good photos of the hill, but it's the slope you can see in the background of this photo of our pond from last winter.  That profile is by far the gentlest slope, it drops off along the ridge, and the slope down towards the pond is ~30%.

Skandi Rogers wrote:In general for poor or thin soil you want a vigorous rootstock not a dwarf one, dwarf rootstocks require near perfect condition with good and rich soil to grow.

What do you want to use the ground under them for? Spacing them wide apart will mean you have to maintain a lot more land, if you're intending on mowing I would space them some multiple of common mower widths. My trees are on MM107 which is nearly full size so they will get to about 16ft high and round so my trees are spaced 16ft apart, the canopies should just touch at full size. I don't grow anything under them deliberatly there is in effect a wildflower meadow there.

Thanks.  I'm going with the recommendation of my county extension horticultural agent in regards to rootstock.  If they do not work out, I'm happy to replace trees that do not perform with a larger rootstock.  Since it seems there is not a real consensus in regards to spacing, I will probably add 5 or 6 ft (the width of our mower and SxS to the standard spacing to make access easier (this also makes it easier to add larger trees in the future if we have failures among our dwarf population.

The ground underneath the trees is currently fallow pasture.  It is mowed somewhat regularly to maintain line of sight and easy access to other areas of the farm, so we will just continue mowing underneath it.  The grass has a decent amount of clover mixed in, so we will leave it as a meadow until I come up with some other hairbrained scheme.  

Nancy Reading wrote:It may be too late if you have already bought your trees, but I would second Skandi's comment about tree size.
I'm not precisely in apple tree paradise here, but have planted a few trees anyway. There are two schools of thought for sites like mine - you either get a dwarfing rootstock and give the tree as much coddling and shelter as you can, or you get a vigorous rootstock and give the tree as much coddling and shelter as you can (!). I did the latter, most of mine are on M25 rootstock, which is the most vigorous that seems to be available in the UK, I only managed to get one tree on it's own rootstock. I created earth mounds to try and give the trees more soil and drainage, the shelterbelt is still developing. Five years on and the trees are only a little bigger than they started. The one on it's own roots is actually doing more poorly than the others.  I'm hoping they will all do better in future (I did actually get a few apples this year at least!) but there are many factors in how big the trees will grow.
If you have neighbours with apple trees it may be worth seeing how they grow near you, and help visualise the trees full size. I'm sure you will get miles better growth than me anyhow if you have sufficient moisture.

Thanks!  The dwarf rootstock the trees I've ordered is a G41 and G11 rootstock which are considered somewhat vigorous and most importantly extremely disease resistant.  I'm using this rootstock at the recommendation of my local extension agent, so intend to give it it's best shot before conceding that we might have had better luck with a larger tree, however based on concerns, I guess I'll adjust spacing to accommodate larger trees should I have a lack of success with any of these trees.  

Jay Angler wrote:

James Landreth wrote:I second the notion of standards and semi dwarves. They're longer lived, more drought tolerant, and in general much more resilient trees

If you want some quick results and can afford to spend the money on dwarf stock, have you considered marking out short-term and long-term locations and starting a bunch of seeds in the long-term locations?

Kenneth mentioned Mark Shepard, and I believe he planted many trees from seed, but he used the inter-tree areas for annuals and short-term crops while he waited for the fruit/nut trees to sprout and produce. That way he had food and profit to support his land while he waited for production. I recall he uses fruit for cider and animal feed on top of selling as fresh fruit, so he isn't concerned if a tree produced fruit that wasn't useful for eating or baking.

What I'm suggesting you consider is dwarf trees for quick production, and direct seed for longer term production.

If you do go the dwarf direction, I'd also suggest you start stockpiling punky wood that isn't allelopathic. I bought an espalier dwarf Asian Pear because I had a spot where a short tree would work that something bigger wouldn't. I keep adding more wood chips around it's base, but also bigger chunks on the path north of it, and unlike a commercial orchard, I now only need to water it about once per month during our drought. The fruit is smaller as a result, but there is enough that with just 3 people eating it, there's still plenty. The fruit has a more intense flavor if it has to work for a living!

Thanks!  I'm considering picking up full sized trees and planting them on the opposite side of this hill (I'd consider it the back side just because it's not visible from much of the property) which is also the area that deer will first hit before getting near my orchard site, however the idea of an apple lottery with seeds is so enticing I fully expect to start some trees from seed just to see what they produce.  Once my kitchen garden is "settled" I'll likely have a lot more wood chips available, however at this point I plan to stick with just the grass in the area while maybe seeding some legumes in areas where I disturb soil.