building residual income streams

Nathan Hale wrote:What about rental property? And use a management company to truly make it as passive as possible. Or does that not jive with the mission around here?

Actually, that's not a bad way to go. But I caution anyone thinking about this idea, there will be consequences. Renting a property IS a business. It has expenses. And when you rent, something seems to ALWAYS be out of order- and you are on the hook to fix it. You should have a cash reserve ready before you rent any property. That cash reserve should be large enough to replace any one major system outage. For instance, a water heater can cost $800 to replace!!! An AC\heat system anywhere from $2,500 to $5,000! If you don't have those kind of reserves and are just looking for somebody to make your payment- you are a terrible landlord candidate. You never know when stuff will go out either.

Since I have been on the smelly end of that stick a lot lately, (had to move 4 times in 18 months!) I really know the difference between an honest, business minded landlord and a non-business minded landlord. Every business person knows there will be unplanned expenses. Renting a house to someone IS a business and if you can't treat it like one, please don't rent.

The WORST all time reason to rent property is to get someone else to make the house payment. People with that as their primary goal end up being no better than the cheap mortgage peddlers that caused our current economic problems. Don't get me wrong, that's not a bad idea, but make sure to not acquire property you do not have the means to make the payments on. Your tenant may run into financial problems and can't pay. It takes forever to evict someone, even if you are ruthless! Many a landlord has been sunk by a tenant that runs aground financially. Been there, done that, it's not a T-Shirt I enjoy wearing.

YLE

Ryan Workman wrote:Love the ideas here.

As a passive income stream I have been looking into various p2p lending services. I have signed up for Lending Club and I like it thus far, but haven't been doing it long enough to see how much it will yield. From what I have read the key is to diversify, look for good job security, and then look at the use for the loan. Loans for credit card refinancing, weddings, and vacations have the lowest default rate. If you have a little money sitting in a bank savings account getting 0.1% interest this might be something you want to look into.

Hey Ryan, I've been doing lending club for 4 years now, I do the minimum of $25 per loan and have over 500 loans as of now, the first 2 years I was over 13% 2012-2013 I was just under 10%. the big thing i've learned is staying with 3 year loans, more 5 year loans default, and I stay under $15K knowing that's easier to pay off then a $30K loan... by doing that I keep my defaults low, I've done some tests going for the 23+% with 5 year loans etc, but found that the defaults pushed the return too low.

I am about to open an etsy.com shop. I handspin yarn, crochet, knit, naalbinding, sew, quilt, carve, make atlatls,....
Havent sold much yet but i am sure once i get things up and running and get more up for sale.

I guess sustainability is the mission. I have a rental property accidentally, and I think it can be good. We were looking for land in a set price range for about a year before we found our current farm. I was not looking fora rrental, but the land was perfect, and had 2 houses. It was higher than our price range, but with the rental, we will be ahead in 10 years.

The Lab - quite a nice residual !

'Twas I who suggested the pre-paid rent deal for Paul's Lab property. I still think it’s a winning idea and even better than residual income as its pre-paid!

How many permies who have some land could do with some companionable people who share their aspirations. MEEE for one - 220 acres is a lot of loneliness!! People have to live someplace - and if they have some pet project that doesn't intrude on current operations maybe they can do it on your patch. Somebody like to grow some mushrooms ? I have water, land, access to growing media … come do it here. Maybe someone likes to make a delicatessen food. I once saw slow roasted pumpkin Selling for well over $30 a kilo. Pumpkin - come grow it here ! OK its about me, but I really mean about you.

Maybe some Rent holiday in return for helping to build the initial accommodation - maybe buying a trailer / caravan as short term accomm.

If Paul, the Duke of all things Permie, thinks its good idea - it probably is!

One that I've been looking into recently is investing in community owned renewable energy projects here in the UK. If I had more cash, and was more certain about the future, I'd have no problem tying up a few thousand quid for a couple of decades. A couple of local examples:

Llangattock Green Valleys - A hydro scheme offering a projected annual return of 5% for 20 years

Gwent Energy CIC - A company that installs PV arrays on farm and community buildings

There's a lot of examples in the UK...

This is possible due to the Feed In Tariffs that the UK government offers to people, companies and organisations that install renewable energy systems. It strikes me that, with such a tariff, that domestic renewables could form part of a residual income portfolio. Albeit one which requires up-front cash; the break-even point is typically 10-12 years for PV arrays with the FIT fixed for 20 (or is it 25?) years iirc, depending on the site and, I imagine, the size of the installation.

Garry Hoddinott wrote:How many permies who have some land could do with some companionable people who share their aspirations. MEEE for one - 220 acres is a lot of loneliness!!

Hi Garry,

I think that's a great idea. Even on my "small" ten acres, easy 75% is not used yet.

I am actually looking to put in a mini-house that takes only labor to build. Lots o rocks in the hillsides out there for anybody that wants them... County allows me to have a "granny flat" second house that I can rent out for income. Something small, say less than 400sqft. Perfect for a single, starting couple or even a family with a baby\toddler. That way there is someone to watch the place when I have to travel. If it's a small house and built right, won't have any expensive systems like high powered AC\heat. That might just be the way to go... Rent it out reasonable and make a decent profit and give someone a cheap place to live at the same time.

I really wish those pre-made "lot models" I see were not so expensive!!! They run upwards of $30,000! For that, I could build my own big house! Sure is convenient though, having that thing on wheels.

Still, with the info here and a rocket stove designed in, one could heat their place on twigs and old busted pallets. No gas bills. A small efficient window unit would be the only power consumption to speak of. Whoever lived there would have plenty of money for other things.

That's not a bad idea at all. Plant some new Permies too.

YLE

Google Helpouts:
It is not residual, and I have not tried it yet, but Google rolled out a teaching framework on top of Google Hangouts called Google Helpouts.
https://helpouts.google.com

For those here with teachable skills, a good internet connection, and a skill in teaching, I think this could be a good income stream.
I don't know if Google even gets a cut, but you could cut them out if you can handle the money yourself through Bitcoin and just do the training using Google Hangouts.
Maybe something like raising chickens, which I assume would be tough to cover completely with a single video due to the variances of climate and breed or whatever.
But maybe be the answer person for a range of answers and charge the callers to join in.

Permies is great if you can learn by reading, but for something like telling the sex of a chick, which I hear is hard sometimes, then maybe have a video class that covers a breed. $1 per person to attend.
The Teacher earns $20 by teaching 20 people and everyone is happy.
I don't know this subject, but fill in whatever subjects you like.

Maybe Ernie and Erica giving video RMH tweaking sessions. You took their class, you thought you understood, but now it smokes. $20 gets them on video link for 15 minutes and they point out your mistakes.

In the end it also saves a lot of gas and that sounds like a good idea too.

Richard Hauser

That's a good one Richard, I like that.

I have 25 years experience in Systems Administration & Help Desk. That might be a way to spend the hot summer days in Arizona! Inside & making money!

YLE

I sell baby chickens to towns folk, mostly as pets. There are ride along products, the chicks need a house, since I just supply them in a milk carton (minus the milk) most people choose to buy one of my 2 kinds of chicken houses, also sell a vegetable enhanced mash, and put chicken crumbles bought in bulk into my own packaging.

I just do it for 2 -3 hours per week - until my stock runs out. I think its important to be in the same place each week. I have return and referred customers.

Oh I should point out that many chickens outgrow their status as kiddie pet. I tell people I'm always prepared to offer them a good home if they are no longer wanted.

Chicks and Eggs - its not too smart, but it pays for my weekly shop and the important stop at the wine cellar!

Rental housing isn't a bad way to go. I purchased the 14 acres across the road from my two years ago for the extra fields and barns. It had a fairly nice main house (better than what we live in) and an old single wide mobile home. I fixed both up and rented them out and when things go well I can make a triple payment to the mortgage every month (I put 60% down at 15years so the mortgage is only $530/month). I have had to do major AC/heater work in both places and some other fairly costly repairs that had been put off by the previous owners.

The singlewide has been rented by the same family for the whole time and I have had no problems besides a few late pays, but that is mostly because the husband works out of town a lot. The hose on the other hand has not been so lucky. I have had one very bad tenet in it that conned me along for several months and by the time I finally got them out they owed over $5000 in back rent. The ones that just left yesterday started out ok, but it was really too much house for them since the husband was a partially disabled vet and they had no kids. They were struggling to make the payments and utilities and finally decided to break the lease and move in with family and then find an apartment. I wish they would have come to me instead of not paying the last month and up and leaving since I would have been happy to let them out of the lease without all the drama that comes with a no pay situation since figuring losing the security deposit makes it about a wash money wise.

Even with this I am still interested in getting 3-4 more rental properties since they do average out cash flow positive over time and I am looking at future income for when I totally drop out of the conventional workforce. My parents have three properties they bought as foreclosures a few years ago that make them about $14,000 in profits each year.

One thing to be aware of is that there are fairly strict standards that landlords must follow for rental houses and they basically must meet at least national/state building codes if not county or city specific ones. People talking about building a little 400sqft cob cabin and renting it may be in for a very rude awakening since that wouldn't even fit the code for most efficiency units. Flying under the radar is fine up to the point that there is a tenant/landlord dispute and then you get taken to the cleaners.

For anyone designing websites/ has anything to do with websites: become a reseller (of web space). Became a reseller around 10 years ago and although we do not have many client/friends sites, +-10, we only need 4 to pay of the reseller account. So beside make a few dollars every on the side, my wife and myself get free web space - always nice when trying out new ideas!

Although stocks/shares are really counted as an investment - dividends can be a great "income" especially if (like here) they usually grow at a quicker rate than inflation. Leave the capital growth for retirement.

so i hope this is the right outlet for this. i am just looking for advice and to see if i am on the right path. i dont mean to be long winded but i think a little back story is important here. it seems to me that everyone i meet in the organic farming and permaculture world came to it after discontent with their corporate rat race careers. after high school i had know idea what to do with my life. i worked a few different jobs making anywhere from $9 to $12 an hour and never enjoyed it. at 23 years old i had been working at a chain hardwood flooring store for about 3 years. that is about how long it took me to realize that i am not a money motivated. i searched for a career that i could fall in love with. i decided that if i could find that job it didnt matter what it payed. after many nights spending hours on the internet i found the maine organic farms and gardeners association (mofga). through this organization i found a farm in maine to apprentice on. it was probably about a week before i knew i found the love i was looking for. mofga puts on weekly workshops for apprentices. the workshops that not only interested but inspired me were on this thing called permaculture that i had never heard of before. ever sense then i have been learning all i can about it. after the season was over i went home to northern michigan to earn money over the winter. i did find much work so i moved to detroit and found a job making deliveries for a commercial plumbing company. the best part about this job is that i can listen to paul's podcasts while i dive around. several times i have heard paul use a quote from joel salatin that i really like, create your own unfair advantages. sometimes i catch myself thinking that i am at a disadvantage. it can feel like there is no way to get from where i am to where i want to be. this quote helps. i am young, i am strong, my two best friends saw my passion and now they are apprenticing on that farm in maine, and when i was in maine fell in love with an amazing women from germany who i have now been dating for almost a year. these can be my unfair advantages. i am leaving in a few weeks to wwoof in germany for 6 months. i plan to keep a detailed journal and learn as much as i can. when i get back i need to find a way to turn more of these unfair advantages into money that i can save and eventually buy land with. another unfair advantage of mine is these two best friends now on this path with me. our rough plan is to use land we dont own to both make money growing food crops and raising animals. if we can find the land we can start a youtube channel maybe a blog. maybe i can even turn all this into a kindle book. any thought, comments, or advice would be very welcome. thank you!

sorry those thoughts werent organized better

I've had dozens of people contact me to tell me all sorts of marketing advice. And I have to admit that all of them are probably right. And it is still a bit beyond me. I'm told that rather than selling 100 or 200 of a thing, if I just do some simple thing, I would sell 100,000 or a million of a thing. But it just seems to be something I don't quite fully understand.

I've set up about 30 residual income streams - and I've added to those by coming out with the electronically delivered DVDs.

And then I did something where I thought I would turn the reigns of the marketing over to people with marketing advice and they would roll in the fat money.

I put lots of stuff on scubbly with an 40% affiliate commission (off the gross - I paid for all the paypal fees and scubbly fees and stuff). The great thing about scubbly is that it was a TRUE residual income machine. I could go away, and my paypal account got fatter every month without one speck of effort on my part.

So if it is true, then a person with marketing savvy will go out and push the Wood Burning Stoves 2.0 workshop and move 100,000 copies and make .... $1,800,000 - wow.

Now that scubbly is shutting down (as of April 2017) all of my stuff is in the Digital Market here on permies. And I offer a 40% affiliate fee to those who sell my stuff.

Let's say somebody earns $25 per hour. And they go and work four extra hours for their savings and they invest it the resulting $100. Now, let's say that their investment pays back 5% per year. They are now earning $5 extra per year. In 20 years, they would have $100 (plus the $100 in the bank).

I wrote an article about ants and aphids in 2002. It took me about two hours. I may have spent another two hours telling folks about it. This is one of my least popular articles. It has a couple of ads on the page and has consistantly brought in about $60 per year every year.

So after twelve years that's $720. If things keep going then in 20 years that would be $1200.

So, with four hours of effort, good investing and 20 years you can have $200 or $1200.

4 hours let to $60 per year.

Working 40 hours per week, 50 weeks per year doing this would mean $30,000 per year of income but you wouldn't have to do any more work after the first year.

Let me say that one more time: Work 1 year, take the rest of your life off and you make $30,000 per year.

I guess I need a money flow diagram because I still don't quite get it.

I think the sad part about this beautiful theory is you have to rely on sales of things for it to work (advertisers will stop advertising on your article if they don't see any sales from it). Wouldn't it be nice if somehow this could work without promoting or relying on creating more waste?

What ad service do you use Paul? Google? Is there any way to control who advertises on your articles? This may be a way to avoid pushing more junk to the masses.

Peter Luitjens wrote:What ad service do you use Paul? Google? Is there any way to control who advertises on your articles? This may be a way to avoid pushing more junk to the masses.

To qualify as "residual income" - you set it up once, and the income keeps coming in, automatically, for the next 20 years.

So, yes, I set up the google stuff 12 years ago. And, yes, there is a fair bit of crap advertised there. But I think I do a very good job of keeping the advertising to less than 5% of the site (whereas most other sites keep ads in the 40% to 95% space).

Hey permies,

I just love getting Paul's daily emails, and now seeing something on marketing even! I love the idea of a permaculture-thinking-based approach to marketing. I have read only part of this thread, but I love the sound of my own voice so much that I want to throw in my two cents now before I read on. As a marketer who searched for years for ways of going about things that felt good to my insides, I think the most important thing is to believe in your way of marketing.

That may sound cheesy, or vague, but try focusing on the idea or a bit, unpacking what that means, in terms of subjectivity as well as objectivity.

_Your_ way of marketing, not anyone else's, is unique to you, has your own signature, your values, your purpose, your pleasure.

Mostly I would see visionaries (the clients I was looking to serve) trying to market like somebody else. In other words, they were excellent at what they did, they were excellent when being themselves, and then when they came to the thought "Now I have to market what I do," they would immediately start to think they had to look like someone else. And they didn't know much about marketing, so they often tried to imitate the worst, rather than the best, of the field.

The best marketers are the ones who don't market at all. So of course they're not very visible. But you can know then from intuition.

The best thing I could offer my clients was the validation--"You know how you want to communicate about what you do better than I or anyone else can know it, and I can best help you by supporting you in what you already know, in being who you really are. Ignore what anybody else is doing, it's fine to look different. The Wright Brothers did."

This is true of permaculturists too, of course, you're creating your own life, so it doesn't have to fit into anyone else's expectation. You may have too many interests, and 98 of them don't make any money--perfect! the two that do pay the bills for the rest, and the 98 that don't get something important done. Or maybe none of your interests pay the bills and something you can stand to do does, or the money comes from somewhere else.

Permaculture Kitteh sez "Ur doin it rite"

And study something about marketing, if there's anything about it that is inherently interseting to study. Find the marketing books that speak to you. The reason to do this is not to use what they say, but to be informed. Knowledge is power. When you know something about the field, and you acknowledge your preferences ("I like intuition-based management and I don't like SEO") then you can give yourself permission not to do things that you don't want to do. And that itself may make the most difference.

Sometimes I would see people give up on working with me, hire a more conventional marketer, get frustrated with that because it wasn't a fit, then finally give up on the whole project. And the fact was they didn't need to hire a marketer, certainly not to give their power away to the marketer, and they didn't need me either. I would have liked to see them not waste their focus on that outside influence.

Adrienne said it well, stack functions, let money come from something you're already doing easily or pleasurably, if you can.

And recognize how much of your interactions with the world are already a form of communication, a form of marketing (could be in the neutral sense or the manipulative sense, and no judgement but what do you want to be putting out into the world? what feels like you at your best?)

Marketing/communication can be, in every moment, of service inherently as well as leading to profit.

Permaculture attitudes are great for this--they work in this area as well as anywhere else. Work with nature's design. The problem is the solution. Earth care, people care, fair share. It might look like it's not working to everyone else, but if it's working for your insides, it's working. Period.

Hope this was helpful to some.

Joshua

PS the answer I finally found of "how to market that feels good to my insides" includes permaculture itself--that's a big piece of what my journey led me to. Gardening, people care, satisfying my soul more deeply and broadly.

It seems a lot of replies have missed the point Paul was making here. If you have a website, and are great at promoting it/have a lot of traffic, you could earn 40% from linking to Paul's stuffing the Digital Forum. That's a FAR higher percentage than Amazon or eBay affiliate stuff, plus it's more permaculture focused, and it's typically a better deal than Google (or other) ads, too (well, depending on the size of your website). As with a polyculture system, diversity is king, so adding the affiliate stuff into your web income mix could be awesome.

Paul - 40% sound substantial, but I'm aware of other high priced affiliate products that offer 60% or even 70% commissions. People work far harder when there is more riding on each sale and you may do better overall taking a lower cut per sale yourself. Maybe something to experiment with.

I don't think the stuff on Scubbly clocks in as "high priced." What sort of things are you talking about?

Hi all, thinking about writing a permaculture gardening eBook from a beginner's perspective (I am getting good results in my first year thanks to Paul Wheaton and Jack Spirko's teaching).  I want to coin a term "R.O.I. Gardening" and wondered if anyone had ever come across this term.

The idea of the e-book would be that the most production for the least amount of work is the way to go for people wanting to create a food supply for themselves and their families.  I have had a little success with a public domain e-book I put out last year, making about $35 a month for one long night's worth of work.  I think R.O.I. Gardening would appeal to the young father/mother whose primary concern is feeding his/her family with beyond organic food with minimal to no daily inputs. 

If R.O.I. Gardening is trademarked, "Gardening for CEO's" would be another interest grabbing title.  Would love to hear your thoughts!

Hi Chad,

I love the idea of the R.O.I. Gardening book. I think CEO's is a bit too narrow a niche, but if you're a CEO and that's your sweet spot then go for it.

For young parents, I think they'd want the emphasis on ease, idiot-proofness, stress-free-ness, security, and nourishing the soul/replenishing emotional energy.

Talking about the health benefits is a good angle, and making the idea of "return" broader than simply dollars--it is so much more, and it also is reflected in dollars (lower your doctor's bill, buy fewer health supplements, get some exercise and fresh air, have the satisfaction of sharing with neighbors and contributing to a better world, and most of all _food security_!!! I think any parent with sense today will want food security. To know your food supply is safe and healthy.

If you are aiming at urban gardeners, then you're going to want to make the lead issue (and arsenic and so on) really clear and do the extra research to make sure it's healthy. Parents will be not just thorough but paranoid about lead in their growing children's food supply. If carting in new topsoil and making a barrier between is necessary, then lots of specific info on how to go about this would be called for.

When a book or article says "get a bunch of logs and make a hugelbed" but doesn't go into _how_ you get the logs, _where_ you get them, hwo you make sure the logs you got aren't full of lead, how you'll transport them, etc. etc. etc., it lessens the likelihood that people will actually follow through. YOu don't want to simply sell your book, you watn to have people USE it. (An on-line sharing community for people to talk about it and get expert feedback from you would be a good value-add, and you could charge for monthly membership. Parents helping parents would be a nice add-on to that.) So for people, especially over-stressed budy parents to use it, it has to be really really carefully worked out to the point you barely have to think--OR that they can hire someone to do the work for them (that could even be you!) or hire unskilled labor to do it, perhaps...or have older relatives pitch in, so handling issues of people having bad backs, allergies, etc., all the mundane stuff, would help you make the usability of the book optimal.

That's my two cents, hope you'll post about it when you're done! And good luck!

Chad Givens wrote:Hi all, thinking about writing a permaculture gardening eBook from a beginner's perspective (I am getting good results in my first year thanks to Paul Wheaton and Jack Spirko's teaching).  I want to coin a term "R.O.I. Gardening" and wondered if anyone had ever come across this term.

The idea of the e-book would be that the most production for the least amount of work is the way to go for people wanting to create a food supply for themselves and their families.  I have had a little success with a public domain e-book I put out last year, making about $35 a month for one long night's worth of work.  I think R.O.I. Gardening would appeal to the young father/mother whose primary concern is feeding his/her family with beyond organic food with minimal to no daily inputs. 

If R.O.I. Gardening is trademarked, "Gardening for CEO's" would be another interest grabbing title.  Would love to hear your thoughts!

I love this idea--Create your own unfair advantages! What was the context of this? what's an example of something Salatin does that he calls an "unfair advantage" he craeted? is it about how he farms or how he communicates about what he does or...?

Patrickf Smith wrote:so i hope this is the right outlet for this. i am just looking for advice and to see if i am on the right path. i dont mean to be long winded but i think a little back story is important here. it seems to me that everyone i meet in the organic farming and permaculture world came to it after discontent with their corporate rat race careers. after high school i had know idea what to do with my life. i worked a few different jobs making anywhere from $9 to $12 an hour and never enjoyed it. at 23 years old i had been working at a chain hardwood flooring store for about 3 years. that is about how long it took me to realize that i am not a money motivated. i searched for a career that i could fall in love with. i decided that if i could find that job it didnt matter what it payed. after many nights spending hours on the internet i found the maine organic farms and gardeners association (mofga). through this organization i found a farm in maine to apprentice on. it was probably about a week before i knew i found the love i was looking for. mofga puts on weekly workshops for apprentices. the workshops that not only interested but inspired me were on this thing called permaculture that i had never heard of before. ever sense then i have been learning all i can about it. after the season was over i went home to northern michigan to earn money over the winter. i did find much work so i moved to detroit and found a job making deliveries for a commercial plumbing company. the best part about this job is that i can listen to paul's podcasts while i dive around. several times i have heard paul use a quote from joel salatin that i really like, create your own unfair advantages. sometimes i catch myself thinking that i am at a disadvantage. it can feel like there is no way to get from where i am to where i want to be. this quote helps. i am young, i am strong, my two best friends saw my passion and now they are apprenticing on that farm in maine, and when i was in maine fell in love with an amazing women from germany who i have now been dating for almost a year. these can be my unfair advantages. i am leaving in a few weeks to wwoof in germany for 6 months. i plan to keep a detailed journal and learn as much as i can. when i get back i need to find a way to turn more of these unfair advantages into money that i can save and eventually buy land with. another unfair advantage of mine is these two best friends now on this path with me. our rough plan is to use land we dont own to both make money growing food crops and raising animals. if we can find the land we can start a youtube channel maybe a blog. maybe i can even turn all this into a kindle book. any thought, comments, or advice would be very welcome. thank you!

sorry those thoughts werent organized better

Chad Givens wrote:Hi all, thinking about writing a permaculture gardening eBook from a beginner's perspective (I am getting good results in my first year thanks to Paul Wheaton and Jack Spirko's teaching).  I want to coin a term "R.O.I. Gardening" and wondered if anyone had ever come across this term.

The idea of the e-book would be that the most production for the least amount of work is the way to go for people wanting to create a food supply for themselves and their families.  I have had a little success with a public domain e-book I put out last year, making about $35 a month for one long night's worth of work.  I think R.O.I. Gardening would appeal to the young father/mother whose primary concern is feeding his/her family with beyond organic food with minimal to no daily inputs. 

If R.O.I. Gardening is trademarked, "Gardening for CEO's" would be another interest grabbing title.  Would love to hear your thoughts!

Good for you on your e-book last year!

I like the R.O.I Gardening idea. I think some real-life examples would be awesome.

You reminded me that earlier this year I found a post where a women sold enough baby goats to offset her feed/animal supplies purchases so that the food she fed her family was freaky cheap. It's Weed 'em & Reap's How much does it cost to run a small farm? post from April 2014. In searching for that one, I found another blog post where they thought the food they were raising ended up in the "not cool" price range (expensive): Counting The Cost: Is Keeping Milk Goats Worth It?

Neither of these places are permaculture, they might not even be up to organic standards, and the goats are not what I want to raise, but I still think the examples are incredibly useful. And there are a gazillion blogs like these two nowadays. If nothing else, these two examples show the power of growing your own food, especially in permaculture systems, which would/could mean buying less feed.

There's a thread here on permies, meat chicken return on investment, where Adam Klaus is amazingly generous in sharing what it costs him and how he is breeding and raising meat birds for sale. Truly excellent real world experience and numbers.

Oops, just realizing these are livestock systems, when you wrote beginning gardening. I do know there have been many folks tracking what it costs them to raise veggies, too, so I'm sure it still applies. Some folks also argue that if you're going by calories, meat/livestock systems are more efficient and cost-effective food systems than veg only systems.

You might already have examples picked at at the ready for your e-book, though I appreciate the reminder about costs of our homegrown food systems as I wanted to share the Weed'Em & Reap link.

I certainly enjoy when my royalties on my books come in every six months. Still for hours of work in for $ out, articles online with banners a way more efficient approach.

Intersting. Does anyone who's published books know if having published books attract more readers to articles? or gets you more speaking engagements? I would assume so...I'd just write what's inspired and something will stick.

Eric Toensmeier wrote:I certainly enjoy when my royalties on my books come in every six months. Still for hours of work in for $ out, articles online with banners a way more efficient approach.

Great thread. Seems dormant for awhile. Bumping it hoping that there's some fresh ideas or there... and it seems that helpout.goolge.com is dead. Are there any alternatives to that?