Meat rabbit kindling question

Here is the scenario, we have 3 meat rabbits. We traded a few laying hens for 2 unrelated does and 1 unrelated buck. I had no meat rabbit experience when we got them in SEPT '24. I read and refer to "Raising pastured rabbits for meat" by Carangelo. The breeders are a mix of a few different breeds and kept on wire. Each have their own homemade 4'long by 2' wide cage. I need to get as much mileage out of the winter and the rabbits as I can. The lady we got them from is about 30 mins away and her advice was to breed for the last time in March or beginning of April at the latest and not try again until Sept or Oct because of the hot humid summers here.

Doe 1 was bred but not doe 2 because she was still too young. Doe 1 kindled 5 kits. 1 was dead outside the nest box and partially eaten, 1 was a runt that died about a week after birth. The remaining 3 are growing out and weaned. Doe 1 spent a decent amount of time on her nest and pulled lots of fur. She seemed to take good care of the remaining kits. I waited 5 weeks to rebreed. I had read about mortality rates and this behavior in the book I referenced.

Doe 1 was rebred and doe 2 was bred for the first time. A day apart. Doe 2 kindled 4 kits 2 days ago. All 4 are in good shape and covered well in the nest box. Doe 1 kindled last night. She had 8 kits, 3 dead kits outside the nest box. 2 partly eaten, 1 intact but dead by the time I got to it. The remaining 5 are covered well in the box and appear fine.

I plan to keep 6 breeders over the summer for line breeding this coming fall. 2 bucks and 4 does.

Is doe 1 a candidate for culling or should I keep breeding her through winter? I think I'll have time to breed her 1 or maybe 2 more times if I do not cull her before summer. She breeds well, handles easily and takes care of the kits that are in the box but man the carnage of the last 2 kindlings makes me ask the question. After seeing doe 2 kindle with no issues, I do not want this mothering to be passed on if it will continue but I could also grow out all her kits and only keep 1 buck. I also do not want to exclude the possibility that those kits were DOA and she was following her instinct to get rid of them or got a little overzealous when cleaning them. I read both of those things are a possibility in the book.

I asked my husband. He says that he usually gives a doe three tries, if she keeps rejecting one or more of her kids, then she is done and get replaced. Some does are just not meant for breeding.

If Doe keeps losing kits, it might be best to stop breeding her.
But I think it's better to wait and watch her next time to decide what’s best.
If her next litter is healthy, you can try breeding her again.

I would cull doe 1. Mothering for me is an inherited trait and that is a problem here. I would also put a wildlife camera on the cage, because i'd want to know what chewed on the newborn kits. The doe herself or a rat/whatever. Might also answer the question of stillborn or killed after.
Since the mothering trait can be passed on via a buck to his offspring, i'd say no to keeping any for breeding from her.

Note : there are plenty of breeders that do the 3 chances thing on this, it tends to keep such traits going. So ask about the mothering abilities of the doe you get a kit from. Good from first litter on or losses first and why.

tamara dutch wrote:I would also put a wildlife camera on the cage, because i'd want to know what chewed on the newborn kits. The doe herself or a rat/whatever. Might also answer the question of stillborn or killed after.

I would also want to see how the babies are getting outside the box. Maybe the nest box needs some improvement, or the babies need some more protection (did they die from exposure, were they stillborn, etc etc)

Tereza Okava wrote:

tamara dutch wrote:I would also put a wildlife camera on the cage, because i'd want to know what chewed on the newborn kits. The doe herself or a rat/whatever. Might also answer the question of stillborn or killed after.

I would also want to see how the babies are getting outside the box. Maybe the nest box needs some improvement, or the babies need some more protection (did they die from exposure, were they stillborn, etc etc)

Given that this happened during kindling, the doe likely started outside, rabbits don't move their kits.

tamara dutch wrote:

Tereza Okava wrote:

tamara dutch wrote:I would also put a wildlife camera on the cage, because i'd want to know what chewed on the newborn kits. The doe herself or a rat/whatever. Might also answer the question of stillborn or killed after.

I would also want to see how the babies are getting outside the box. Maybe the nest box needs some improvement, or the babies need some more protection (did they die from exposure, were they stillborn, etc etc)

Given that this happened during kindling, the doe likely started outside, rabbits don't move their kits.

My train of thought was the same. I thought that maybe she was surprised by it and finally moved to the box. If so, it has happened twice now.

I made my boxes based off of https://www.tealstonehomestead.com/blog/diy-wood-rabbit-nest-box

I made mine a little bigger because I made my cage door large enough for a 12"x12" box to fit. It is 22" long.

Correction to my original post is that doe 1 had 10 total kits. I miscounted. 3 dead outside the box. The other 7 are in the box doing well so far.

Update: Having watched Doe 2 mother her kits, I can say there is a very discernable difference in quality of mothering. I rebred both does and they are due to kindle next weekend. I will update what the outcome is. I am betting the consensus of the replies here is correct in that Doe 1 will need to be culled.

Final update.

Doe 2 successfully kindled 11 yesterday, which are all safe in nest box.

Doe 1 kindled 8 this morning. 2 cannibalized outside of the box, 1 dead in the box. The other 5 appear to be okay.

End of the line for Doe 1 and all of her kits, once they finish growing out.

Lessons learned:
1-No second (or third) chances on poor mothering behaviors.
2-Due to the limited breeding season (heat), we will keep an extra doe through the summer if there are unproven does. That way, lesson 1 can be implemented and the freezer quota can be met or exceeded even if we have to cull a doe after her first kindling.

I agree on culling the Doe 1 line, I think that's the right call.  FWIW, I do the same with most of my animal lines as well (sheep, goats, chickens, geese, etc) when I find traits I need to remove.

I would reiterate on the rat investigation.  Over-grooming does will usually nip off toes or ears, but not gore their kits.  If she was over-grooming you'd likely see it in occasional missing toes in otherwise healthy kits.  Rat feeding would also have the goring on the underside of the kits, or rotating and trying to pull them through the floor wire.  You can also look for rat poop in the J-feeders or alongside your rabbit poop in the pans.

Just my $0.02.

Dave Lucey wrote: I would reiterate on the rat investigation.  

This time the kindling with Doe 1 was later in the morning than usual. I get up at 530 and take one of my kids to do the animal chores when it is light enough out.

I went in and she had not kindled yet. I went back to bring some kitchen scraps to the chickens about 30 mins later and made the discovery. The rabbits cages are off of the ground and in the chicken coop/run.

I have never seen any rat evidence and since this period of time was what it was and the chickens were out and under the cages, I don't have a doubt that she was the issue.

It is a shame, but that is how things go. I never cease to be amazed at how these behaviors are instinctual and passed on through the generations.

Jackson Bradley wrote:Final update.

Doe 2 successfully kindled 11 yesterday, which are all safe in nest box.

Doe 1 kindled 8 this morning. 2 cannibalized outside of the box, 1 dead in the box. The other 5 appear to be okay.

End of the line for Doe 1 and all of her kits, once they finish growing out.

Lessons learned:
1-No second (or third) chances on poor mothering behaviors.
2-Due to the limited breeding season (heat), we will keep an extra doe through the summer if there are unproven does. That way, lesson 1 can be implemented and the freezer quota can be met or exceeded even if we have to cull a doe after her first kindling.

So this makes me truly think about whether to even rebreed my young doe anymore. I was thinking I should give her a second chance, since that is what so many people recommend. It's just hard to think about starting over with another young doe but I suppose that's the thing to do after reading all this again. With 'fresh eyes' of a little more experience.

I wanted to update and share a few things that we've learned over the year because interacting here https://permies.com/t/367559/Rex-doe-kits brought some things to mind.

Sometimes a first time doe will have a kit outside of the box. This has happened and if I catch it fast enough, I move the kit into the box with the others. That has not been an indication of bad mothering skills as long as it is not happening every time a doe kindles. I think having a kit outside of the box can lead to the instincts kicking in for the doe to cannibalize the kit. I check the expected mother does out every 30 mins to every hour on the expected morning especially if I have a first time mamma.

The does we keep as breeders have 10+ kits reliably. Sometimes, that same doe who gives up 10+ kits later may only have have 4-8 the first time she kindles. We wait for a few rounds to see what we have as far as number of kits.

I like to breed 2 does on the same day if I have 2 bucks or a day apart if I have 1 buck. Especially if I have an unproven doe. If a doe only has a few kits, I combine them all together with a proven mamma and rebreed the other doe a little faster than usual. This is a two edged sword because if you have a bad mamma, you want to be able to identify those kits if you have combined them so that you grow them out and cull if you have a bad mamma.

I believe we have retained all good mammas and this has been passed down in our short experience so it does not concern me to combine the kits. Otherwise the best way I found to identify them is with a fat red marker mark on their backs. Again, I think we are passed that point but we'll eventually need to bring in some unrelated animals unless we decide to line breed.

We try to keep a moderately intensive breeding schedule due to not breeding in the hot summer months. We breed a doe, let her kindle, rebreed 4 weeks after kindling, remove the kits around 6-7 weeks old and repeat. We do not breed from May-Sept.