I have a few considerations (perhaps foolish, do tell!) in regards to pooling the water. But for the moment I'd like to hear any feedback/interest before I go blathering on . Oh I should also mention that apparently there are large ones of these that have been built in Africa to serve the purpose of irrigation.
There are instances where elevating the water makes sense. Tidal power is often abundant at the wrong time of day, so water is pumped to storage ponds where it waits for peak load. Niagara falls is drained of most of its water at night when the tourists are asleep. This water is stored until needed. There are losses in both of these examples. No energy is gained by pumping it up hill. There are frictional losses and a small amount of evaporative losses.
Cj: The lift comes from the changes in pressure within the pump, these pumps are particularly good for slow moving rivers where other hydro would not suffice. You get high lift from very slow RPMs, the distance it can pump is only limited by the number of coils within the pump, which increase the pressure of the water/air as it passes through towards the exit. I am not aware of any slow turning water wheel type run of river hydro that is capable of generating a substantial amount of electricity (other than this), if you have any links I'd love to see them. There is a bonus alone in the lift due to the air decompressing as it travels out of the tube, according to the calculations on the website I linked in my OP it's about 25%.
Dale: I couldn't say for sure but I would imagine the frictional losses of water in a pipe are fairly minimal? Perhaps I'm in error there. A reservoir at the top of the hill was part of the idea (I did not share it in the OP because I figured I had been confusing enough lol), I have a couple ideas in regard to that, which I will try to blather out in as rational a form as I can! I'll start with the less elaborate one and then try to explain the other.
Plan 1: The pump carries the water to a reservoir (probably at a distance shorter than its maximum lift) where before its added to the reservoir it passes through its first turbine. Since the line is pressurized I imagine it will turn it just fine, however since it will be coming out in spurtz (water, air, water, air ect) I wonder how effective this will be. Perhaps the air will also be enough to spin the turbine. I imagine at any rate there are devices with capacitors that could even out the fluctuation in energy provided there. It then pools in the reservoir (possibly multiple sets of pumps can congregate at one) where it is channeled back down to the riverside to the second turbine before being released back into the river. The advantages of this would be you could harness it twice, and someone please correct me on this because I might be in error but my assumption is that the weight of the water in the reservoir (provided it is big enough) will help the acceleration as it travels down the pipe to the river?
Plan 2: Is the same as plan 1 except this time (and feel free to call me crazy) the line carrying the water up the hill from the pump is suspended in air by cables from nearby tree's (providing of course that there are any). This get up allows for yet another (although smaller) chance to capture power from the water. The first turbine meets the cable 30 or so feet in the air (on a tree or tower I guess you could build if you really wanted to), this turbine is powered mostly by the fact that the line is pressurized (just like the first turbine in plan 1), you then get to add a 2nd turbine near the reservoir for when this same water drops via gravity from turbine 1 to turbine 2. It wouldn't be as much as turbine 3 (by the river) since its only a 30 foot or so drop. So in theory you could potentially harvest the energy of this water three times.
Rick: I am pretty darned confused about what you are saying, but maybe its the hour of the day, I'll re-read it after a nap.
I am willing to draw diagrams if these descriptions have been sub par, and I apologize for any confusion I am casting as I just got out of work and am rather fatigued. I thank all of you for your continued interest it is nice to have someone other than the GF to bother with this haha.
I was equally baffled by an earlier reply. I think it may involve magic and fairy dust. And possibility some ganja.
if electricity is what you're after, though, I'm not sure this is the answer. seems like it would be much simpler to generate directly from the water wheel and forget the Wirtz pump. the pump would add a layer of complexity that wouldn't provide any more usable energy. and Pelton wheels aren't cheap.
but do build a Wirtz pump for the water. I think they're great and I hope to build one myself.
Edit: Oh I forgot to add, that for purely water pumping potential I have a separate thought to perhaps use it in conjunction with large mycelium mats ect. I am just in love with the idea of the river supplying its own power to clean itself. Thoughts?
Oroborus Hatfield wrote:I disagree with you a bit there tel, I think there's more potential than you think. In what I outlined in plan 2 it seems possible to capture the water three times. And while that might be a bit more on the overkill side of things, in plan 1 you can still capture twice. Now I'm not saying that capturing it just from the water wheel isn't a viable option, but I don't know what sort yields are possible from that, I'll have to look into it. And it just occurs to me that it may be possible to both pump the water AND capture the power from the turning of the wheel (course that might be pushing it as to what the rivers capable of doing).
you would be capturing and transforming the kinetic energy of the water three times. the trouble is that all the kinetic energy of the water comes from the kinetic energy provided by your water wheel (which comes from the kinetic energy of the river). you can't get more energy out than that water wheel puts in, which is why I figure it would be so much simpler to just use the water wheel coupled directly to your generator. that way you've only got the one (or two, counting river to wheel) opportunity for loss instead of four (or five, counting river to wheel).
Oroborus Hatfield wrote:Edit: Oh I forgot to add, that for purely water pumping potential I have a separate thought to perhaps use it in conjunction with large mycelium mats ect. I am just in love with the idea of the river supplying its own power to clean itself. Thoughts?
sounds like it has potential. the only issues I see are that it would probably warm the water. this would only be a problem if the scale is fairly large, but that's also probably the scale you would need to clean a significant portion of the river. placing the works in deep shade would mitigate both warming and evaporation. it should be very easy to take samples before and after the water passes through the mycelium to check for change. I think you should try it out.
In regards to the mycelium mats another consideration I have is perhaps having an artificial stream (fueled by the pumps) that perhaps just have innoculated straw bales along the edges
The net result is that you now have less energy available for power production at the river than you started with. To maximize your efficiency, you want to minimize your energy conversions. As other posters have said, you'd be better off driving your generator directly from the water wheel, rather than pumping uphill.
However, this pump is a good idea for getting irrigation water up to dry locations when you have a slow moving/low gradient river. If you have a higher gradient river, it may be easier and more cost effective to use a ram pump.
an alternative might be to build one water wheel and use it for both a Wirtz pump and to directly power a generator. might take a bigger wheel than either separately would, but you'll cover both of the objectives you've mentioned: moving water and generating electricity.
A lot more than you would ever get from hooking a generator directly to an under-shot waterwheel floating on a slow, lazy river. You pretty much eliminate the possibility of large debris damaging your turbine too.
That's what people are saying. It takes a lot of power to turn that Wirtz pump, so instead of converting it a few times and losing a lot of your energy, just convert it once.
1) if you can find a section of your river with 10' of drop you could build a sluice and use something like a Powerspout LH.
2) if you have a lot of flow but very little head, an undershot paddle wheel generator will still give you some power.
3) If you are set on pumping water, a ram pump is more efficient, easier to hide and has fewer moving parts.
4) The beauty of a coil pump is the low-tech components. Some wood and a couple hundred feet of PE pipe is mostly what you need. The sticky part is the rotating flange...
They would be linked in series but the actual wiring would be inside between the 2 tubes and thus out of the way of the water, and the ends (hermetically sealed into insulated cables leading from the tubes into hose, until reaching transformers on each side of the watercourse, having 2 coils (each leading alternatively to one side or the other for 2 phase generators) with both ends being each side leading to 12 volt batteries, sealed in waterproof boxes.
The batteries, also in series would be linked to a transformer system leading to the main installation on the property, where they'd store power by means of heat exchangers or a water pump lifting water to an overhead reservoir that could then release it's kinetic energy whilst also providing the land with water in dry spells or to use as a header tank for a domestic water supply. Other battery (12 volt leisure batteries, maintained) uses would be for storing electricity for eg communications and light, and charging low tech rechargeable batteries for gizmos. The reqson for maintenance ones is the cells can be recharged with electrolyte (using distilled water) and homemaintenance is possible when measuring eg specific gravity. I don't like the dependency on batteries per se (using minerals and exploitation of earth's resources for too many) but as a stored energy when other means of storage inappropriate (height of header tank, tank full) and lighting/ phone/ modem it could be useful.
The Indian trick of putting weak bleach solution into drinking water bottles and inverting them in the ceiling/roof to create cheap home made solar lamps is a great idea, and could save battery power.
The wheels would be immersed so energy would not be used lifting the wheel and weight of water above the flow. so they could turn quickly. advantage of small size to eg fish going uphil to spawn (we have mountains not far from the sea here in Brittany) and to operating in reduced flow conditions. mini turbines could also be made from eg semi rigid plastic sheeting (as in kid's windmills) pinned to a cenral ring and magnets place in the wings. As the electricity is collected in the isolated and insulated coil inside the tubes there should be no problem with water/electricity mix! Someone I'm sure can design this to more useful specs. I invented the idea just musing it I haven't seen it anywhere else yet But I did post it on another of these hydro-electric water wheel forums. As I'm in the process of buying 5km of sloping land (virgin woodland and pasture) with a river running through it this interests me greatly!
girl power ... turns out to be about a hundred watts. But they seriuosly don't like being connected to the grid. Tiny ad:
For the Love of Paw Paws Mini Manual - Kickitty-Kickstarterhttps://permies.com/t/76624/Love-Paw-Paws-Mini-Manual