• Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic
permaculture forums growies critters building homesteading energy monies kitchen purity ungarbage community wilderness fiber arts art permaculture artisans regional education skip experiences global resources cider press projects digital market permies.com pie forums private forums all forums
this forum made possible by our volunteer staff, including ...
master stewards:
  • Carla Burke
  • John F Dean
  • Nancy Reading
  • r ranson
  • Jay Angler
  • Pearl Sutton
stewards:
  • paul wheaton
  • Devaka Cooray
  • Leigh Tate
master gardeners:
  • Timothy Norton
  • Christopher Weeks
gardeners:
  • Jeremy VanGelder
  • Matt McSpadden
  • thomas rubino

Bulk cleaning and especially rust removal from bolts, screws, and other small hardware

 
gardener
Posts: 3545
Location: Central Oklahoma (zone 7a)
1257
forest garden trees woodworking
  • Likes 6
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Recently thanks to some shop space lent by my brother in law I have been consolidating and sorting all the rusty old cans of bolts, screws, plumbing parts, sockets, drill bits, screwdriver bits, small hand tools, and other small steel items that I've collected via my garage and estate sale habit.  There's enormous value in just sorting wildly mixed "junk" into collections of like items and storing them in labeled containers, and it's very soothing.  However, a lot of items are badly rusted -- if not beyond functionality, at least to the point where they are difficult and annoying to handle and use.  I do not simply want to give up on these items, but we are talking thousands and thousands of pieces.  It's not practical to hit each one with a wire wheel or a hand-held piece of steel wool.  I need something that can do a few pounds of small rusty objects per batch.  

So I've been doing my research and there are a bunch of internet-suggested approaches.  What follows are my impressions-from-research, could be wildly wrong:

1) Piecemeal hand work with wirebrush and steel wool.  Simply not an option for me due to volume.

2) Piecemeal hand work with wire wheel on an electric bench grinder.  Better, but again, not an option due to volume.

3) Chemical methods, acid: Commercial acids, vinegar, acidic soda pop, molasses-and-water solution with citric and organic acids, pick your acid.  Have not ruled out this approach using weaker food acids but I am not keen.  Stronger acids tend to remove too much, pit or weaken the work pieces.  Safe handling is an issue, plus disposal of spent solution is potential environmental problem.  Weaker acids take a long time and leave behind work pieces that still need substantial hand work.

4) Chemical methods, bases: strong caustic solutions, usually heated.  Can be jury-rigged but is typically done in an expensive machine-shop parts washing machine.  Hot caustic liquid is nasty stuff, posing safe handling and disposal issues.  Less likely than acid methods to damage the workpieces.

5) Chemical methods, commercial preparations: There are a bunch of proprietary goos that are less obnoxious to work with than strong acids or bases.   Unknown toxic gick in a can, literally.  Supposedly safe to handle and dispose, but that's as judged by non-permie marketeers I don't trust.   Supposedly these work pretty well.  They're expensive -- another strike against.

4) Bulk dry/air abrasion methods (sandblasting tanks and so forth).  Requires expensive equipment, sometimes expensive blasting media, can create respiratory safety issues unless pretty serious safety gear is used.  Tends to damage work pieces especially if lots of diverse pieces are being run at once.  

5) Bulk wet abrasion methods (like rock tumblers) where hardware is tumbled, with or without an abrasive medium, in a liquid (water with or without detergents, usually).  Requires expensive equipment unless you jury-rig something, reports are mixed about whether and how well it works on small rusty steel parts, reports are mixed on extent to which threaded surfaces are deformed and how tricky it is to tumble long enough to remove rust without damaging work pieces.   Noisy.

6) Bulk vibratory abrasion methods.  Similar to above but using a commercial vibratory cleaner vessel that just shakes, without tumbling.  Always with a purchased abrasive medium, sometimes with added liquid.  Noisy, usually requires an expensive purpose-built power tool, said to deliver pretty good results.

7)  Electrolysis.  Low voltage direct current (such as from a car battery or battery charger) passed through water with enough washing powder (sodium carbonate) in it to give it lots of ions.  Negative electrode (cathode) is an open steel basket with the rusty stuff in it.  Positive electrode is a piece of junk steel we do not love and don't mind depositing crud on.   In operation, emits small quantities of both hydrogen and oxygen gas, creating potential for "boom!" if not mindful about ventilation -- especially given that we are playing with spark-generating technologies.   However, the amounts are very small, thus likewise the risk if operator is at all times mindful.  Electrolytic solution to be disposed of is essentially water with particulate iron in it -- much less gicky than most of the chem-based approaches.   Internet demonstrations are impressive, and compare favorably to the caustic/acidic approaches.

8) Ultrasonic cleaning.  Requires an expensive tool, no jury-rigging.  Usually combined with heat and chemicals in the tank of the cleaning device.  Said to be wonderful on grease and oil and miscellaneous gunk, but quite ineffective on heavy rust, so worthless for my purposes.  Some people have claimed that it's a second-pass tool, for turning stuff that's already "visually clean" into "chemically clean" items suitable for having further finishes applied.

So, what is my question?

I'm not fundamentally asking "what is the most permie way?"  I think we all know it's to keep the rusty stuff in a bucket and hand-clean individual items at need.  Except, I'm trying to generate surplus here; I'm trying to repair/upcycle garbage into ready-to-use collections that other people can grab-and-go with.  We are already noticing substantially fewer hardware store runs to buy "new stuff" out of this shop, just from having my sorting boxes and bowls and containers full of useful small items spread out all over about eight linear feet of shop bench under a strong light.  (A side project has been refurbishing a variety of small parts bins and chests-of-drawers so that sorted material can be stored and accessed sanely.)  

No, I'm not starting from "the most sustainable, non-toxic way" question.  I want to know which of these methods is actually most practical and effective to use on a workbench scale to clean a few pounds of stuff at a time.  I'd really like to hear from anybody who has done this, routinely and happily, to many hundreds or thousands of items.  Tell me your methods!  What worked, what failed?  Help me avoid your mistakes so I can make new ones!  

My notion is that once I zero in on a method that works, I can worry about tweaking/managing/improving it from a toxicity and sustainability perspective.  I'm pretty sure that the net benefits will always pencil out, given the embodied energy and natural resource extraction cost of using new instead of refurbished stuff.

That said, I already know that I'm not going to be using any of the methods that rely on strong acids or caustic bases.  I simply am not interested in exercising the necessary care to protect myself, the workpieces, my work environment, and the broader environment from those ingredients.  Still, if that's what works, I'm interested in hearing your specifics, if only out of intellectual curiosity.

Now it's the time where I shut up and y'all start talking!
 
Dan Boone
gardener
Posts: 3545
Location: Central Oklahoma (zone 7a)
1257
forest garden trees woodworking
  • Likes 3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
There are a bunch of videos out there explaining how to do the electrolysis rust removal thing but most of them involve one piece of rusty metal at a time, directly hooked to the cathodic juice.  This one demonstrates using a conductive mesh basket as the cathode, so that you can just put a batch of rusty things in the basket, connect the basket to the juice, and go:




This video is more typical of the genre; it may explain things a bit better, but it involves de-rusting one item at a time:

 
Posts: 97
Location: Eastern Washington
25
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I'm also digging out a shop corner filled with boxes of miscellaneous fasteners.

For me, anything that takes too much refurb time goes in the scrap metal. But, if I was going to clean rust off bulk nuts and bolts, the only way to go is #6; dry media tumbling. Dump them in, come back later, dump through sieve, blow off with compressed air, coat with light oil, done.

But I have to keep asking myself, "when would I choose this used fastener over a new one?"
And as one predisposed to hoarding, I have to keep reminding myself that the empty space is more valuable than this stuff.
 
Posts: 8696
Location: Ozarks zone 7 alluvial, clay/loam with few rocks 50" yearly rain
2298
4
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I grew up believing that cocacola would clean the rust off of plowshares...I don't ever remember seeing it in action and have wondered more recently if it was just a 'lie' planted by my dad to keep me from drinking soda? ...and it worked as I've always associated that drink with rust removal.

Could be the ingredients have changed from sixty! years ago? and what might have worked then won't anymore.

Well, here it is...look for something and of course google will find *something*
How to Remove Rust with Coca-Cola

The same carbonated cola drink that refreshes you can be put to work to remove rust. Phosphoric acid in most soft drinks interacts with iron oxide to dissolve rust. Phosphoric acid is also found in commercial cleaners, but of course, the amount in cola is less, so people can drink it safely. While using cola for rust removal is a green cleaning solution, its relatively low level of phosphoric acid means it works more slowly than commercial rust removers.



There you have it
Now, I want to know if it really works...and I don't want to get caught buying a bottle of coke after all these years.
 
pollinator
Posts: 4958
1194
transportation duck trees rabbit tiny house chicken earthworks building woodworking
  • Likes 7
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Electrolysis is your best option out of all of them for bulk cleaning. That really works well...

You could also try putting the rusted parts in a solution of acetone and transmission fluid. I have always used this to break bolts free...a homemade WD-40 but works a lot better. Let it soak for a day or two, and then just wipe the parts free of rust when you pull them out of the jug you are using, and then place them into the proper sorted bin.

Incidentally I think you are doing the right thing. For years I thought my grandparents were silly for sorting this kind of stuff and keeping it, I mean the store is just down the road right? But as I have gotten older I have found myself doing the same thing. It is amazing how often I grab the stuff that my Grandparents separated and kept. A roofing repair job just needs a few roofing shingle nails. Sometimes I need five screws 3/4 of an inch long and no longer. And my bathroom door is a barn style door that slides effortlessly on a barn door track that we had on our old tractor shed...from the 1940's! All that stuff has costs to replace new, especially when you calculate the time and money just to get to the store.

The key is to organize it, so you can find it, but if you do, it is really convenient, and saves you a lot of money.

As for the Acetone and Transmission Oil trick...I was proven right. Popular mechanics did a test on all kinds of WD-40 type lubricants and found that on a rusted bolts, of the same size, situation etc; the bolt sprayed with WD-40 took 130 pounds of torque to break free (the worst tested), but the Acetone/ATF homemade lubrication, took just 40 pounds of torque to break (the best tested). It is not very often that homemade is better, but it is in this case.

BTW: I love WD-40, but I tend to use it as a cleaner. Nothing takes grease off clothes like WD-40!
 
steward & bricolagier
Posts: 14298
Location: SW Missouri
9699
2
goat cat fungi books chicken earthworks food preservation cooking building homestead ungarbage
  • Likes 5
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Judith Browning wrote:I grew up believing that cocacola would clean the rust off of plowshares...I don't ever remember seeing it in action and have wondered more recently if it was just a 'lie' planted by my dad to keep me from drinking soda? ...and it worked as I've always associated that drink with rust removal.

Could be the ingredients have changed from sixty! years ago? and what might have worked then won't anymore.

Well, here it is...look for something and of course google will find *something*
How to Remove Rust with Coca-Cola

The same carbonated cola drink that refreshes you can be put to work to remove rust. Phosphoric acid in most soft drinks interacts with iron oxide to dissolve rust. Phosphoric acid is also found in commercial cleaners, but of course, the amount in cola is less, so people can drink it safely. While using cola for rust removal is a green cleaning solution, its relatively low level of phosphoric acid means it works more slowly than commercial rust removers.



There you have it
Now, I want to know if it really works...and I don't want to get caught buying a bottle of coke after all these years.


Yes, it still works. Coke (And other sodas) have carbonic acid (to make the bubbles) and/or phosphoric acid (to add a tangy/sour taste to it.) Coke has both, so it's more effective than some of the other sodas. So soda fits Dan's category of  #3 Chemical methods, it would be classed as a food grade acid.

And your dad was wise to scare you off drinking the stuff, nothing like using facts to make people think!
 
Judith Browning
Posts: 8696
Location: Ozarks zone 7 alluvial, clay/loam with few rocks 50" yearly rain
2298
4
  • Likes 3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator


And your dad was wise to scare you off drinking the stuff, nothing like using facts to make people think!



....soooooo do you think the 'floor sweepings in candy bars' one is true also?  
 
Pearl Sutton
steward & bricolagier
Posts: 14298
Location: SW Missouri
9699
2
goat cat fungi books chicken earthworks food preservation cooking building homestead ungarbage
  • Likes 6
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Judith Browning wrote:


And your dad was wise to scare you off drinking the stuff, nothing like using facts to make people think!



....soooooo do you think the 'floor sweepings in candy bars' one is true also?  


I'm derailing this thread, but yes, there are a certain number of "contaminants" allowed in foods, and if you want to be horrified, look it up...
Back to cleaning bolts

I have done the acid bit, and added shaking them in a big jar with said acid, and had fair results, about 90%, I declared most of the 10% left as not worth salvaging, which gave me pretty high good results numbers. I used CLR, which is a commercial acid that is not horrifyingly strong, but still MUST be treated with respect. I have tried vinegar, and the commercial stuff is not high enough acid for me, if I need to do this again, I'll make a batch of strongly acid vinegar, and use it instead of commercial vinegar or CLR.
 
No more fooling around. Read this tiny ad:
A rocket mass heater heats your home with one tenth the wood of a conventional wood stove
http://woodheat.net
reply
    Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic