Russian Fruit Trenches

Not sure if this is the best section to post this...

Fruit Trenches: Cultivating Subtropical, Russia

I found this very interesting. I never realized this was done on such a large scale so long ago. I've wanted to build a similar style "greenhouse" for a long time. I would love to know how they handled drainage in their trenches.

Fascinating read. Growing in trenches and ditches seems to be the way to go

Thank you, OP for this article. I'm in zone 1b, so this topic is always on my mind. I've often wondered if cold hardiness is a fixed trait or if it can be adjusted. Is the article telling me that the latter is true?

"The method, developed following the observation that young plants started from seed adapt to the conditions of the new environment, also proved successful for citrus fruits – which retained high yields and high quality fruits."

So, a tree can adapt to a harsher climate, but not big changes? This would make sense given that seeds in nature could travel a moderate distance via bird, etc. I find this exciting.

Michael I would suggest looking into the ideas and studies of epigenetics, specifically relating to plants.
I think with enough selection over enough generations you should be able to adapt anything to any condition. The question is just how much time and work is it going to take to get there.

Michael Helmersson wrote:
"The method, developed following the observation that young plants started from seed adapt to the conditions of the new environment, also proved successful for citrus fruits – which retained high yields and high quality fruits."

So, a tree can adapt to a harsher climate, but not big changes? This would make sense given that seeds in nature could travel a moderate distance via bird, etc. I find this exciting.

Two (and three) years ago when we had a hot summer with little rain, I collected water in the sink when rinsing dishes etc., including the citrus press. i then used this water for my plants outside like tomatoes. The waste water must have contained some lemon or tangerine seeds, because in both following springs I found little citrus seedlings in the pots outside which had germinated in autumn and survived all winter long with long periods of frost (although protected a bit because the tomato pots are standing sheltered against the southern walls of the house).
Still I found it extraordinary. As I don't have the space for indoor plants I gifted these little citrus plants. Maybe I should have done some experimenting!

J Youngman wrote:Michael I would suggest looking into the ideas and studies of epigenetics, specifically relating to plants.
I think with enough selection over enough generations you should be able to adapt anything to any condition. The question is just how much time and work is it going to take to get there.

Thank you again, J. I'm moderately familiar with epigenetics in terms of human health (thanks to Dr. Bruce Lipton), so your suggestion is very intriguing. Yes, the time it will/would take to produce meaningful results is daunting but that should motivate me to get to work sooner rather than later.

I noticed that Chris Holcombe posted about this 5 months ago ( https://permies.com/t/155259/Atypical-Ideas-Cold-Weather-Tropical ), so I guess I should acknowledge him too.    

I have taken my first tiny step on the path laid out in the Russian Fruit Trenches article. My goal is to breed apple trees that are hardy in my zone (1b-ish) by taking seeds from established trees in a milder zone and growing them out here. The first step was acquiring seeds, and I have to thank Cam Haslehurst for being such a generous donor. My fingers are crossed for some sort of success within my lifetime, but that isn't absolutely necessary.

Thank you, Cam and thank you J Youngman for posting the article!

Anita Martin wrote: I found little citrus seedlings in the pots outside which had germinated in autumn and survived all winter long .... As I don't have the space for indoor plants I gifted these little citrus plants. Maybe I should have done some experimenting!

I have been growing stuff that won't survive like store or hybrid melon seeds for the flower buds and also citrus seeds.

I let them all grow, make amazing tea with them, and then after the tea I chop them finely and throw them in chilli

Blueberries and cranberries grow wild in Iqaluit. They are super small and low to the ground, presumably where it is warmer. I imagine it is possible to achieve the same effect as trenches with sufficient earth berming?

It is really cool to see how the trees are persuaded to stay low -- perhaps bonsai sort of on a huge scale

I know our zones in Canada aren't like USDA zones or Europe for that matter, but with global warming, earth sinking, and higher humidity it will be interesting to see what happens

I'm wondering what would make more sense in a cold climate, or as many will be experiencing more often, a too hot climate compared to historic norms, that is trenching or geothermal heat pumps, or perhaps a combination? The trench makes some sense as presented in the Russian citrus growing along with the other citrus plant modifications they employed. I would surmise that the geothermal heat pump method would require a structure and adequate insulation, air/water circulation and passive solar in cold climates. Perhaps a trench would be helpful in hot climates, although a structure might be equally effective (?). Where I live any trench deep enough to have fairly stable surrounding soil temperatures would need to be at least 30 feet deep. That might need some special means to have sunlight or grow lights. A geothermal loop would have to be about 200 - 300 feet per system ton. I'm just not clear on all of the trade-off costs, conveniences and efficiencies. The Russian system wasn't designed to provide somewhat stable temperatures but was instead designed primarily for only not freezing temperatures. Interestingly, stable temperatures would eliminate the necessity of plant adaptations through selection. Stable temperatures would be quicker but plant attribute selection might be more adaptable to changing climate?

Mary Haasch wrote:I'm wondering what would make more sense in a cold climate, or as many will be experiencing more often, a too hot climate compared to historic norms, that is trenching or geothermal heat pumps, or perhaps a combination? The trench makes some sense as presented in the Russian citrus growing along with the other citrus plant modifications they employed. I would surmise that the geothermal heat pump method would require a structure and adequate insulation, air/water circulation and passive solar in cold climates. Perhaps a trench would be helpful in hot climates, although a structure might be equally effective (?). Where I live any trench deep enough to have fairly stable surrounding soil temperatures would need to be at least 30 feet deep. That might need some special means to have sunlight or grow lights. A geothermal loop would have to be about 200 - 300 feet per system ton. I'm just not clear on all of the trade-off costs, conveniences and efficiencies. The Russian system wasn't designed to provide somewhat stable temperatures but was instead designed primarily for only not freezing temperatures. Interestingly, stable temperatures would eliminate the necessity of plant adaptations through selection. Stable temperatures would be quicker but plant attribute selection might be more adaptable to changing climate?

The temperature don't have to be stable and in fact it doesn't even have to even above freezing/frost line. It just needs to move you from say zone 5 to zone 8 in the winter. The plants can still be dormant, heck their could even be some dieback as long as it will survive and fruit the following season.

Ra Kenworth wrote:Blueberries and cranberries grow wild in Iqaluit.

I wonder if this is the first time anyone has mentioned Iqaluit on Permies. I spent a bunch of time there, and around Baffin Island, but I wasn't tuned in to plants or growing back then. That place would be a great permaculture challenge for someone.

Michael Helmersson wrote:

Ra Kenworth wrote:Blueberries and cranberries grow wild in Iqaluit.

I wonder if this is the first time anyone has mentioned Iqaluit on Permies. I spent a bunch of time there, and around Baffin Island, but I wasn't tuned in to plants or growing back then. That place would be a great permaculture challenge for someone.

There are people who sprout, some people growing in greenhouses here, and also there's a community greenhouse run by volunteers, and the spent hops from NuBrew recently started giving them to a neighbor who is decontaminating a site left the military had contaminated in the 50s, but yes, I totally agree -- and a worthwhile challenge.

Fascinating. It kinda ties in with something I’ve been dreaming about. I’m eager to move out of Florida and want to be in New Mexico but I’ll really miss my mango tree…his name is Glenn.
I don’t have the budget for my dream house but if I did it would be an Earthship style house with a greenhouse big enough for a lap pool and an espaliers mango tree, like Glenn.
There’s a lot of things about Florida I don’t like. Eating my weight in sweet, fleshy, delicious mangoes from my yard every day for over a month each summer is an absolute treat!

Kel Rock wrote:... my dream house ... would be an Earthship style house with a greenhouse big enough for a lap pool and an espaliers mango tree, like Glenn.

Sounds heavenly! I would settle for a safe place offline with a Wapiti greenhouse with a big kitchen and a small loft, but I could make room for Glenn!

Yeah Ra, I’m hoping to land somewhere between the dream house I described and a shack. Think: Unabomber shack on the cover of Dwell Magazine. lol

Kel Rock wrote:Yeah Ra, I’m hoping to land somewhere between the dream house I described and a shack. Think: Unabomber shack on the cover of Dwell Magazine. lol

😆  so I looked up dwell magazine and understand that but unabomber shows me some unsavory specimen one probably would prefer not to have living next door...

So what do you mean? A bomb shelter style hovel ?  🤣

So somewhere between your dream house and a first attempt at the $50 underground house?

OK so where does this fit in with Russian Fruit Trenches before we get completely sidetracked?

Oh yes, it must be close to the arctic circle so clearly below grade,
How about we set of a fusion bomb just because dirty bombs aren't nice, but so it away from caribou trails and somewhere people aren't living which should be easy, ideally on the northwest passage.

Collect all the styrofoam from a community, iqaluit might be willing to volunteer, and fill the hole like a donut, and grow some mycelium for a dome roof, with pre framed slabs that can be removed when there is close to 24 hour sun, to be replaced with greenhouse pieces.

Since it will be big and warm, we could have a fish cleaning station or two. And guest accommodation.

Pllant our trees in the bottom, crafting them elf style, with hammocks attached, natural steps, hanging baskets, and use the pallets from the shipping containers for the rocket mother of all mass heaters while using the shipping containers to assemble a huge boat house / docking port.

Then we invite fishermen to come and use our facilities and warm up, dock their boats. We can buy arctic char with fruit! And help the fishermen because in Nunavut there is still only one deep docking station for all that huge land!

My comment was just a bad joke. The Unabomber lived in a very tiny shack. It became something of a morbid symbol of an incredibly small house (long before the current “tiny house” frenzy). I just meant that my budget is closer to that kind of house where my desire is for the kind of aesthetics you would see in Dwell.
I dream of a slick, minimalistic, eco-friendly house with the lap pool and mango tree growing in the high desert enclosure (thousands of miles from where a mango would normally grow). My financial situation means I need to aim much lower but I’d love to try to achieve some elements of the dream in a more humble house.

Mine was also a joke: I don't even buy lottery tickets!

But I would love to build a modified igloo with big mycelium blocks that could withstand mighty cold conditions

I know a little about mycelium but not how to build with it. I saw a story on the news where someone was using it to replace styrofoam peanuts used in packing boxes etc. sounds very interesting.

Your earlier comment made me think you might not be in the US. It was just an assumption and I know they are often wrong. Do you mind me asking what part of the world you’re in?

Of course not: if you click on my name, details are shared for all! Iqaluit Nunavut zone 0

Many buildings that are older around here have been boarded up because of mold, and meanwhile there's a housing crisis! So I keep thinking igloos, mushrooms, you actually build an igloo in an upward spiral.
(Meanwhile, some cardboard is used in the incinerator for garbage, no composting. It would be nice if those buildings could be converted.)

Since sunlight is under 4 hours and the sun hovers just above the horizon in winter, a winter window position is vertical. And mushrooms don't need much light. The idea of growing mushrooms inside a mushroom igloo has occurred to me.

I would love to go to Montana this June and learn more about the mushroom insulation, but I can't manage that for 2 years, but perhaps you can.
Anyway that's why this post was of particular interest to me and other than bananas, fruit costs a small fortune. But blueberries and cranberries grow here.

I’m new to the site and didn’t know you could click on a name and get info about the person. Anyway, you and I seem to be as far apart as we could possibly be and still be in the states. lol. I’ll probably still be in the same place in June/July so maybe I can send you a few mangoes. Not sure how long it would take to get there but if I sent green ones they might be ripe when you get them. I promise they would be a treat! We can get them in the grocery store but they don’t compare to Glenn’s fruit. My mouth is watering just thinking about them. lol

After sending the message I realized you’re not in the states. Still far away

Welcome and no problem
If you try desktop view on your mobile we should all show up with apples, other fun icons, and those that show our locations beside our name will be apparent (scroll down to the bottom and find the Itty bitty writing saying desktop view to get even ittier bittier writing)

J Youngman wrote:Not sure if this is the best section to post this...

Fruit Trenches: Cultivating Subtropical, Russia

That was an epic read. Thanks for sharing.

The willow in the arctic never gets higher than a few inches: same as the blueberries, cranberries, ligonberries, but since I read this post, I frequently look at the willow and wonder if a willow leaching bed, based on the willow feeder idea, would be possible

Nonetheless, a trench or depression might be a good place to start a fruiting crop that can withstand wet feet like domesticated cranberries, where the zone is borderline.