• Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic
permaculture forums growies critters building homesteading energy monies kitchen purity ungarbage community wilderness fiber arts art permaculture artisans regional education skip experiences global resources cider press projects digital market permies.com pie forums private forums all forums
this forum made possible by our volunteer staff, including ...
master stewards:
  • r ranson
  • Nancy Reading
  • Carla Burke
  • John F Dean
  • Jay Angler
  • paul wheaton
stewards:
  • Nicole Alderman
  • Pearl Sutton
  • Anne Miller
master gardeners:
  • Christopher Weeks
  • Timothy Norton
gardeners:
  • Nina Surya
  • Matt McSpadden
  • thomas rubino

Can I recharge a climate battery with a rocket mass heater?

 
Posts: 40
2
2
  • Likes 3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I'm building a 20'x34' passive solar greenhouse with a climate battery, that I want to grow in all year.  To keep the climate battery from getting discharged around January or if there isn't as much sun as it needs, I'm hoping to use a rocket mass heater.  

I see three options:
1. run the exhaust pipe through the middle of the climate battery and let it vent out the other side.  I'm not happy with this idea though.
2. heat the greenhouse during the day when needed, to produce the same kind of heat the sun would have.  This could make it hard to regulate the temperature, especially if I want the greenhouse cool, but not too cold.
3. somehow vent the heat into the climate battery intakes.  Maybe run a larger pipe around the exhaust pipe so the surrounding air is heated, then with a fan, blow it into the climate battery intakes?

I should explain my problem with #2 better.  I'm going to have three of these greenhouses, attached in a row.  I plan on keeping them at different temperatures depending on what is growing in each.

I'm new to rocket mass heaters, but I hope to make good use of them.  I'm adding an additional 10' of space on the other side of the north wall for a kitchen/work area, storage, aquaculture, etc.  I can put the RMHs in here, along with additional RMHs so heat these rooms.  
 
master pollinator
Posts: 5215
Location: Canadian Prairies - Zone 3b
1424
  • Likes 4
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Hi Diane. Welcome to Permies!

Interesting question. Can you give us some specifics on the "climate battery" you have in place?
 
gardener
Posts: 5259
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio,Price Hill 45205
1047
forest garden trees urban
  • Likes 3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Welcome to Permies!

I like your idea.
You might want to plan on little or no mass for your rocket stove, considering that a climate battery is itself a  thermal mass.

If you are going to build that room on the north side of the greenhouse, giving the rocket stove a dedicated mass will let you use that entire room a a heat reservoir for the greenhouse.

The thermostaticly controlled fans of the climate battery should take care of moderating tempatures.

The heat transfer that happens in a climate battery is air to earth but it also involves condensation, so you could direct and control the heat from the rocket hearer by boiling water and directing the steam into the climate battery.
Just boiling water off into the atmosphere of the greenhouse might work, but it's liable to create condensation on the glazing, where you do not want it.
 
pollinator
Posts: 1178
Location: Boston, Massachusetts
515
6
urban books building solar rocket stoves ungarbage
  • Likes 3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Diane, we have a non-passive solar greenhouse almost the same size as you have. (metal bows, double layer, inflated poly skin, propane heat) I find that during the day, even on overcast days, the temps inside rise to the 70's or 80's*F, quickly to 90's*F and more if it is sunny. The temps drop quickly about 1 hour before sunset (we start getting shade from an evergreen then).
Your comment about regulating the temperature being difficult with a "daytime" RMH firing, might be right. That would be creating heat at the same time as whatever solar gain was coming, and typically the least heat load (warmest outdoor temps). Timing a RMH firing later in the day might help coast through more of the night.
I think William is spot on with the climate battery regulating the greenhouse temperature highs. As long as you aren't creating TOO much heat for the system to moderate, you'd be fine.
Two ways to think of the problem:
a.) recharge the climate battery, which then moderates the GH temps, or
b.) heat the GH to not deplete the climate battery as quickly.

a.) involves a combination/interconnection of the systems
b.) runs the the two in parallel, without complicating/compromising either one

I like the RMH in the adjoining workspace(s) idea, it would be easier to tend while you work, and adjust for your comfort, while benefiting the greenhouse.
A simple way might be to have the inlet to the climate battery pass through the RMH mass before continuing to the rest of the battery. When the GH was too warm, the RMH mass would be part of the climate battery, if the GH was cold and the RMH was fired, the climate battery system would get charged.
 
Diane Schips
Posts: 40
2
2
  • Likes 3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Ok, a lot has been going on since my first post, including two hospitalizations for my father.  In the ,meantime, I've been rethinking this a lot.

William, I was planning on surrounding the exhaust pipe with another pipe, and lowing air through the pipe and into the climate battery intake.  This way I wouldn't be charging the battery with the exhaust, but with air heated by the exhaust pipe.  I was thinking about how to humidify the air, but I hadn't decided on anything yet.

Kenneth, I came to the same conclusion as you.  Temps here have been known to get to minus 28 degrees in the winter.  There will be times when a fully charged climate battery would not be able to keep the greenhouse warm enough.  Especially since I'm using glass for glazing.  I'm planning for 60 years, making the greenhouse as permanent as I can.  I know I need to address hail - I'm looking into options.  I don't want to have to replace the glazing every few years, and If I was willing to, I don't know how available or expensive it would be when I needed to replace it.  This is for a homestead, not a business, so periodic replacement costs are an issue.  So I'll need the ability to actively heat the greenhouse, why not let that process help keep the greenhouse charged?

As for using the RMH during the day, that would be on days that are cloudy enough and cold enough where the greenhouse just doesn't get warm.  Though I may want to use it during the day on the north side.  I'm debating electric heat as well, to keep the aquaculture and mushroom inoculation and fruiting room temperatures better regulated.  I'm planning on installing solar power, but I'll want some kind of backup for that too.

I was thinking about where to put the RMH.  Under the central pathway sounded good until I started thinking if that would compromise the battery.  I really like your idea of having the inlet pass through the RHM mass.  I think  I'd like two inlets, one through the mass and the other as usual, which fans are turned on would depend on my needs.  I'd have to consider head tolerances for the inlet pipe, and find a way to keep the air hydrated.

I now have another problem.  I may need to build all this above ground.  The battery won't be under the north rooms so they will help insulate the battery.  I can put the chicken coups on the south side which I hope will help warm the coups and/or insulate the battery.  I'll be talking to an excavator tomorrow and I'm waiting to hear back from an engineer.  I don't know how deep I an dog before hitting granite, and I'm trying to have an entrance into the greenhouse from he house without too many steps.  Any thoughts on this would b very much appreciated.  I'll also post on this issue separately, as this issue has me very concerned.

 
This tiny ad turned out a lot bigger than I thought it would
Learn Permaculture through a little hard work
https://wheaton-labs.com/bootcamp
reply
    Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic