Best Livestock to Maintain Large Young Silvopasture Food Forest

I've asked different iterations of this same question at least a couple times in the past. Still, no really definitive answers have popped out at me.

I've got a situation where I really want to cut my fossil fuel dependence to maintain my 10 hectare food forest, which was planted into an old cattle pasture. The density of our tree plantings is much more dense than your average commercial operation. It's expensive and time-consuming to maintain with brush-blade weedwackers, and too steep for tractors and forestry mulchers (even if they were available down here). The tree saplings have only been in the ground for a little over two years.

I want to get grazers out there to do the maintenance for me. I'm not concerned with making much money from it, just want it to pay for itself, because eliminating the present maintenance expense is the real victory.

Have been looking into sheep, as there are dorper/pelibuey hybrids available locally. From all I've read and watched online, these are my hangups about the sheep:

1) We are in the humid tropics, and it doesn't seem like dorper is the best breed for very wet climates. In general sheep seem difficult in this sort of climate, because they might likely end up with hoof rot or other problems related to being wet.

2) Most others in tropical or subtropical areas say that sheep are more prone to parasite problems than most other grazing livestock.

3) Many sources suggest sheep are great escape artists. We don't have the budget to replace the kilometers of 3-strand barbed wire perimeter fence with hog/cattle panel fencing.

4) Some fruit trees are still pretty small. Animals that are strictly grass eaters (if there is such a thing) would be better, so we don't have to deal with the huge expense of protecting thousands of trees. We don't want to wait until all the fruit trees are say over 8 ft tall before introducing grazing animals, because by then, some of the pioneer trees will be so big that their shade will lead to a major decline in pasture quality.

Are these pretty valid concerns? What other animal would be better? Please don't suggest things like pigs. We won't have enough fruit production for at least the next few years to sustain them, without the impracticality of bringing them feed due to the remoteness of our property as well as the ruggedness of the terrain. Animals that are primarily grass-eaters are the priority here. We're already doing chickens, muscovies and a few geese, but it's not enough to maintain the property.

Scott said, It's expensive and time-consuming to maintain with brush-blade weedwackers, and too steep for tractors and forestry mulchers

My first thought would be to plant the paths with something low-growing such as creeping thyme, buffalograss, or some other low-growing herbs.

To answer your question:

"Best Livestock to Maintain Large Young Silvopasture Food Forest"

I have always heard goats are best.  Though I bet that has been suggested before.

What about free-range chickens, ducks, or geese?

You are in the native range for capybara.  I honestly don't know much about them and it might be another animal you'd have to protect the trees from.  But since it's a local animal maybe someone there has information.  You definitely wouldn't have to worry about the climate being to wet for them.

Actually, is there a reason you're not considering alpaca?  They're another Peruvian native.  Apparently once the trees are getting over 6 feet the palatable growth is out of their reach and if I am understanding the fencing requirements properly from this site https://couchtohomestead.com/will-alpacas-eat-fruit-trees/  your existing barbed wire can probably be used to make viable fencing for them, though you may need to do a little reconfiguring.

Casie Becker wrote:Actually, is there a reason you're not considering alpaca?  They're another Peruvian native.  Apparently once the trees are getting over 6 feet the palatable growth is out of their reach and if I am understanding the fencing requirements properly from this site https://couchtohomestead.com/will-alpacas-eat-fruit-trees/  your existing barbed wire can probably be used to make viable fencing for them, though you may need to do a little reconfiguring.

Yes there are reasons. Although they are from Peru, they are from a completely different climate altogether. I'd be curious if they could survive outdoors where we are without shelter and constant vet calls related to parasites and disease.
Another reason is economics. I want to serve our local market. No one uses alpaca here.

I'd be curious if they could work though.

Hi Scott,
Based on your restrictions, I think what Ann quoted in her post would be your best bet. Some low growing plant that spreads like crazy. Otherwise scaling up what you are doing. Any grass eating livestock that I can think of (cows, sheep, goats, pigs, etc) would also eat the young trees to some extent. I think geese are probably safe (chickens could be scratching too much), but if its not enough you have to scale up or go anther route.

Another option would be to reduce the density of the plantings so that you can use different equipment or animals in a different way. Most commercial orchards leave room for tractors. Even the permaculture ones tend to be spread out enough for crops, equipment, animals, and whatnot in between. Any more densely planted permaculture orchards that I have seen are quite overgrown. Not necessarily bad, just different than what you are describing that you want.

Matt McSpadden wrote:Hi Scott,
Based on your restrictions, I think what Ann quoted in her post would be your best bet. Some low growing plant that spreads like crazy. Otherwise scaling up what you are doing. Any grass eating livestock that I can think of (cows, sheep, goats, pigs, etc) would also eat the young trees to some extent. I think geese are probably safe (chickens could be scratching too much), but if its not enough you have to scale up or go anther route.

Another option would be to reduce the density of the plantings so that you can use different equipment or animals in a different way. Most commercial orchards leave room for tractors. Even the permaculture ones tend to be spread out enough for crops, equipment, animals, and whatnot in between. Any more densely planted permaculture orchards that I have seen are quite overgrown. Not necessarily bad, just different than what you are describing that you want.

Our property is too steep and inaccessible for a tractor. It wasn't our first choice property, but we made do with what was available. The plantings will thin themselves over time when we start to sacrifice some of the pioneer trees. Currently leaning towards running Pelibuey sheep with electric fencing, and setting up temporary tree protectors for the smaller trees for the paddock the animals are in. Sheep will require less expensive plant protectors than cows. The videos I've seen with Greg Judy, it looks like the sheep seldom eat the woody branches and twigs on any of the weeds he shows. They seem to prefer to strip the leaves and not debark anything. We should be OK if that's the case. I think it's important to stay on top of their nutrition with minerals, but those free choice minerals might not be available in Peru. Also, I'm sure it has a lot to do with rotational frequency. If we get lazy, they'll probably start targeting trees. Not sure how acrobatic they can be compared to goats.

Would equines work? They tend to be the least tree- eating of all the grazers I’ve worked with. Perhaps you could provide retirement boarding for older horses at reasonable rates? There is a huge call for that in the US, I don’t know about the rest of the world. People board for years at an expensive barn, then they need a younger horse, so they find a retirement place for the old one where they aren’t paying for amenities like riding arenas that the old horse doesn’t use. Less infrastructure you need to keep the horses and less cost for them, plus the horses will add manure to your land- it could be a match made in heaven.

Hi Scott,

I followed your food forest project and see that you are 2 years ahead.
My wife and myself are due this winter to get our beloved trees out of the backyard into real soil.

Most trees grew for 2-3 years in pots and reached between 1.5 till 3 meters hence the choice what livestock fits in is very limited.

Due to my job here I have almost every day a few hrs. "research time" and as more I found out, as smaller the choice for livestock became.

For pests and bugs (and snakes) are Guinea Fowls on the plan.

Chicken (Rotational) fill the gap for weeds and "other pests" even they are scratching the soil surface.
I hope to get with with Pinto Peanuts a strong ground cover which takes the chicken scratches.
Beside Chicken love the leaves..

Geese for grazing, but you still have to maintain the grass by moving as geese are picky eaters and won't touch older grasses.
I just posted today a new thread how Geese might get along with pinto peanuts (Arachis pintoi) as forage.
I would be happy if somebody made already experiences with Geese on pinto forage.
There is absolute nothing to find in the web about it..

My solution for 7 acres is more easy as on your size of Land with 24 acres.
Lots of Leuceana trees as pioneers plus Pinto peanuts as ground cover will be the (main) nitrogen fixers.
Mixed with Moringa they will be the group of sacrificial plants for the animals.

My trees will be protected with ring fences around and hopefully continue growing like they did in their pots.

Was a hard job for my wife and our maid to maintain the roots and re pot as necessary as they grew, so I not want to lose them with the wrong livestock.

A friend in Thailand lost his entire forest in just a few days using goats.
The first days they were browsing on everything in abundance but as the delicatessen were gone they chew down almost all of his fruit trees in a full moon weekend..

Those sheep might work well.  You can't trust them to leave saplings alone, so some means of protecting them will be necessary until the trees grow tall enough to not be vulnerable to the browsing.  

Sheep (generally) like to go under fencing, goats like to go over fencing.  With adequate fencing height (4' is usually plenty, some breeds might be OK with 3'), and any places they might try to go under blocked off sheep aren't terribly hard to contain.  They do need to be trained to electric fencing though.  Don't trust them to respect it automatically.  Set them up in a hard fenced area with the electric fencing inside the hard fence.  They'll learn quickly.

Are turkeys eaten in your area?  They can mow surprisingly effectively, and don't scratch to anything like the extent chickens do.  Electric netting will contain them, if you clip wings.  Heritage turkeys can easily fly 30' up into trees unless clipped.  Broad breasted will only fly until they get past a certain size, but at that juvenile stage they can still get over fencing unless clipped.  

I recommend pigeons, and chickens, and geese, and ducks, and pigs, and cows, and sheep, and goats, and horses, and cows, and llamas, and emus, and....

In other words, mimic a natural ecosystem as much as possible.

Joseph Lofthouse wrote:I recommend pigeons, and chickens, and geese, and ducks, and pigs, and cows, and sheep, and goats, and horses, and cows, and llamas, and emus, and....

In other words, mimic a natural ecosystem as much as possible.

Unfortunately this would need the "great plains" but not a 24 acre "plot".

When I was growing up, our "small pasture" was 15 acres. We kept our home on that, and a wide assortment of animals, including most that I listed previously.

Andrew Mayflower wrote:Those sheep might work well.  You can't trust them to leave saplings alone, so some means of protecting them will be necessary until the trees grow tall enough to not be vulnerable to the browsing.  

Sheep (generally) like to go under fencing, goats like to go over fencing.  With adequate fencing height (4' is usually plenty, some breeds might be OK with 3'), and any places they might try to go under blocked off sheep aren't terribly hard to contain.  They do need to be trained to electric fencing though.  Don't trust them to respect it automatically.  Set them up in a hard fenced area with the electric fencing inside the hard fence.  They'll learn quickly.

Are turkeys eaten in your area?  They can mow surprisingly effectively, and don't scratch to anything like the extent chickens do.  Electric netting will contain them, if you clip wings.  Heritage turkeys can easily fly 30' up into trees unless clipped.  Broad breasted will only fly until they get past a certain size, but at that juvenile stage they can still get over fencing unless clipped.  

Yeah turkeys are eaten here. Pretty much only for Christmas though. It's one bird I've considered adding. How would they get along with geese and others? I've heard turkeys are very good at catching grass hoppers. Do they have a homing instinct? We have all our birds (Chickens, guineas, muscovies and geese) trained to come back to the tractors at night for dinner and to go to bed. I don't care about flying. Some of our female muscovies do laps around our hills. I'd rather they be able to fly because we have opposums here, and rarely some other wild animals.

Thanks for the tip about sheep tending to go under fencing.

To train sheep to the electric fencing using a hard fence along the outside of the electric fencing, how long would you have to leave them in that training corral? Reason I ask is because I'd be worried about the parasites accumulating in a small corral in a short period of time.

See Hes wrote:Hi Scott,

I followed your food forest project and see that you are 2 years ahead.
My wife and myself are due this winter to get our beloved trees out of the backyard into real soil.

Most trees grew for 2-3 years in pots and reached between 1.5 till 3 meters hence the choice what livestock fits in is very limited.

Due to my job here I have almost every day a few hrs. "research time" and as more I found out, as smaller the choice for livestock became.

For pests and bugs (and snakes) are Guinea Fowls on the plan.

Chicken (Rotational) fill the gap for weeds and "other pests" even they are scratching the soil surface.
I hope to get with with Pinto Peanuts a strong ground cover which takes the chicken scratches.
Beside Chicken love the leaves..

Geese for grazing, but you still have to maintain the grass by moving as geese are picky eaters and won't touch older grasses.
I just posted today a new thread how Geese might get along with pinto peanuts (Arachis pintoi) as forage.
I would be happy if somebody made already experiences with Geese on pinto forage.
There is absolute nothing to find in the web about it..

My solution for 7 acres is more easy as on your size of Land with 24 acres.
Lots of Leuceana trees as pioneers plus Pinto peanuts as ground cover will be the (main) nitrogen fixers.
Mixed with Moringa they will be the group of sacrificial plants for the animals.

My trees will be protected with ring fences around and hopefully continue growing like they did in their pots.

Was a hard job for my wife and our maid to maintain the roots and re pot as necessary as they grew, so I not want to lose them with the wrong livestock.

A friend in Thailand lost his entire forest in just a few days using goats.
The first days they were browsing on everything in abundance but as the delicatessen were gone they chew down almost all of his fruit trees in a full moon weekend..

I like Guineas because they're the least damaging of vegetation out of all our birds. Still haven't seen them hunt any snakes.

I have lots of experience with pintoi peanut (perennial peanut). We planted it by seed (not very common to find seed) with every tree we planted, so we have thousands of patches all over the place. I will keep an eye out to see if the geese are interested in it. I don't notice hardly anyone eating the leaves, but yesterday I watched a chicken eat off all the little yellow flowers from one large patch.

Depending on how wet your climate is, you might reconsider guineas. They really struggle here with our rainy season. I think they are native to more of a drier savanna climate in Africa.

Also, send some soil samples to labs before deciding to plant Leucaena. We had taken soil samples, but even still, I did not consider the pH tolerance of Leucaena before planting a bunch of seeds. That was pretty much a 99% failure on our property since they do not like low soil pH.

Scott Obar wrote:

Andrew Mayflower wrote:Those sheep might work well.  You can't trust them to leave saplings alone, so some means of protecting them will be necessary until the trees grow tall enough to not be vulnerable to the browsing.  

Sheep (generally) like to go under fencing, goats like to go over fencing.  With adequate fencing height (4' is usually plenty, some breeds might be OK with 3'), and any places they might try to go under blocked off sheep aren't terribly hard to contain.  They do need to be trained to electric fencing though.  Don't trust them to respect it automatically.  Set them up in a hard fenced area with the electric fencing inside the hard fence.  They'll learn quickly.

Are turkeys eaten in your area?  They can mow surprisingly effectively, and don't scratch to anything like the extent chickens do.  Electric netting will contain them, if you clip wings.  Heritage turkeys can easily fly 30' up into trees unless clipped.  Broad breasted will only fly until they get past a certain size, but at that juvenile stage they can still get over fencing unless clipped.  

Yeah turkeys are eaten here. Pretty much only for Christmas though. It's one bird I've considered adding. How would they get along with geese and others? I've heard turkeys are very good at catching grass hoppers. Do they have a homing instinct? We have all our birds (Chickens, guineas, muscovies and geese) trained to come back to the tractors at night for dinner and to go to bed. I don't care about flying. Some of our female muscovies do laps around our hills. I'd rather they be able to fly because we have opposums here, and rarely some other wild animals.

Thanks for the tip about sheep tending to go under fencing.

To train sheep to the electric fencing using a hard fence along the outside of the electric fencing, how long would you have to leave them in that training corral? Reason I ask is because I'd be worried about the parasites accumulating in a small corral in a short period of time.

My turkeys get along well with chickens.  No idea if they’d be ok with geese and other fowl but it seems like they should be ok if raised around them from the start.

Haven’t noticed an especially strong homing instinct, but if you handle them a lot as poults and until they’re 2-3 months old they’ll imprint on you and they’ll want to follow you everywhere.  

Time needed to train to electric fence will depend on the individual sheep.  But I’d give them at least a few days, maybe a week or longer if they seem stubborn.  

Not sure if you’re familiar with these or if they’re not available in your area perhaps, but there are breeds of sheep adapted for humid tropical areas with resistances to parasites, hoof rot etc.

St. Croix (hair)

Barbados Blackbelly (hair)

Santa Cruz (hair)

Gulf Coast Native (wool)

Florida Cracker (wool)