Good LGD for family milking cow?

Hey folks, this is my first post here. I’ve lingered around here for a while without an account trying to learn about all things permaculture, and finally decided to start posting with some of my questions.
I am considering getting a family milking cow for our homestead here in northwestern Missouri. I’m particularly interested in getting a miniature jersey cow if I can get my hands on one. While looking into this, I’ve come to the conclusion that it would be helpful to have a livestock guardian dog to scare off any predators that might be a danger to my cow or her calf. We have coyotes real bad in our area.
My question is whether or not you agree that I need a LGD, and if so is there a particular breed that you think would be most helpful in this scenario? The only other animal that we’ve had is pigs, and I don’t think we plan on doing anything smaller like chickens, sheep, goats, etc. So is there a LGD breed that does particularly well with cattle?
I also realize that climate is a factor, and I would be curious to hear your thoughts on that. Here in the Midwest, we have both very cold winters and very hot and humid summers.

Hi B Jones,

Welcome to Permies.

How many acres do you have?   How close are your neighbors?   What are they like?

John F Dean wrote:Hi B Jones,

Welcome to Permies.

How many acres do you have?   How close are your neighbors?   What are they like?

Thanks John.
We have 3 acres, one neighbor is right next to us since our property isn’t as wide as it is long, but our other neighbors have a 100yard driveway that runs along our property so their home is a bit further. I have a good relationship with both neighbors and they are pretty laid back.

I have 11 acres with excellent neighbors.   I have an Australian Shepherd and a Border Collie that do an excellent job.   My logic is that I do not expect them to fight coyotes…. Just keep them away.  They are also small  and friendly enough to not be seen as threat to the neighbors.  They work together well and have addressed threats such as a Bobcat getting near the livestock.  

Herd dogs do need room to exercise.  I have several  hundred acres of farm land around me.  

I make sure one dog is a few years younger than the other. That way when one dies off, there is an experienced dog to help train the newby.

I have considered a Great Pyrenees, but I have concerns about the heat.  I also see the size might be a concern to the neighbors

I can only recommend the Caucasian Shepherd.. I have four, and no more problems from coyotes, bobcats, or mountain lions.

LGD are great with any animal you have living on your property.  My preference is for Central Asian Shepherds, but opinions vary.  I will say that if your area isn't fenced, I wouldn't get a LGD.  Their job is to stop any intrusion into your area.  If you don't have a fence, they will define what "your area" is.  We have 80 acres and my LGD has decided that her area is larger than that.  If you don't have a truly huge area or a very good fence, there is a pretty good chance someone or some other animal is going to get bitten.

Trace Oswald wrote:LGD are great with any animal you have living on your property.  My preference is for Central Asian Shepherds, but opinions vary.  I will say that if your area isn't fenced, I wouldn't get a LGD.  Their job is to stop any intrusion into your area.  If you don't have a fence, they will define what "your area" is.  We have 80 acres and my LGD has decided that her area is larger than that.  If you don't have a truly huge area or a very good fence, there is a pretty good chance someone or some other animal is going to get bitten.

Also great LGD’s, along with Akbash and Kangal.. still my preference is with Caucasian Ovtcharka. So loyal, and capable. I trained them on territorial borders, and they respect them almost absolutely with no fence. They have never bitten anyone, mostly because strangers see them and head the other way rapidly.. haha! If they only knew.. my dogs are probably more curious to see if they are bringing them food!

Failed to mention.. bonding with animals they are intended to guard is important. The earlier, the better. I got my dogs late by that standard (6+ months), and had to rely on the natural proclivity of each animal to determine their job. Only one was perfectly behaved to live with his goats, and performs his job flawlessly and naturally.. even tolerating the occasional bullying by a goat with attitude, who doesn’t realize that this dog could snap its neck in a instant and have him for lunch if he chose to. Truly amazing to see..

Oof.. one more thing. You MUST be the leader of the pack. Full stop.

These are all helpful suggestions, thank you guys. I was curious about whether or not some dogs do better than others with particular livestock but it sounds like a good LDG is good for any animal.
Here’s a follow up question…
It may be another year or two until I have everything ready to bring in a milking cow to our homestead. We may have pigs in the meantime but I was wondering if I should wait to get and train an LDG until we have the cattle that I want the dog to protect. Would introducing the cattle to the property later on be an issue for the dog?

Ted Abbey wrote:
Also great LGD’s, along with Akbash and Kangal.. still my preference is with Caucasian Ovtcharka. So loyal, and capable. I trained them on territorial borders, and they respect them almost absolutely with no fence. They have never bitten anyone, mostly because strangers see them and head the other way rapidly.. haha! If they only knew.. my dogs are probably more curious to see if they are bringing them food!

In my experience, there is as much difference between individuals in each breed as between the different breeds of LGD.  Mine will definitely bite anyone coming onto my land without invitation if they ignore her warnings.  She has killed a number of animals that intruded as well.  

I have seen Caucasians that I would really like to own, but I don't personally know any of the good breeders of working CO's here in the US.  I'm a big fan of Kangals as well.  

Ted Abbey wrote:Failed to mention.. bonding with animals they are intended to guard is important. The earlier, the better. I got my dogs late by that standard (6+ months), and had to rely on the natural proclivity of each animal to determine their job. Only one was perfectly behaved to live with his goats, and performs his job flawlessly and naturally.. even tolerating the occasional bullying by a goat with attitude, who doesn’t realize that this dog could snap its neck in a instant and have him for lunch if he chose to. Truly amazing to see..

Sounds like you answered my question as I was typing it, haha

B Jones wrote:Would introducing the cattle to the property later on be an issue for the dog?

Not in my experience.  I add animals frequently and my dogs know they belong there as soon as I introduce them.  In the time I have had my LGD, I have added 10 cats, dozens of chickens, another dog.  LGD are very intelligent animals.  They don't have trouble learning who and what belongs on your land.

My dogs decide who is family.  They tend to agree with me with the exception of Opossums….they really don’t have a problem with them.

To be clear, neither Border Collies nor Australian Shepherds are really LSG dogs …. But they are close enough for my purposes.

I sought out a Pyrenees because they have the lowest bite/injury rate (towards livestock or people) of any LGD or large breed in my research. They are much less likely to hurt a neighbor’s kids and animals than a herding breed, or many other large breeds like German Shepherds. Its far more likely they would intervene to help a neighbor than hurt them. Ours jumped our 6ft fence to protect a neighbors goats when a cougar was prowling around.

Pyrenees will shed heavily in places with hot summers, as is the case in much of the Basque Country (Pyrenees Mountains of the Iberian Peninsula, which newcomers like to call Northern Spain and Southern France), where they evolved over ten thousand+ years. Make sure they have shade and plentiful clean water and they can manage, and they will conserve their energy more wisely than most breeds. Do not shave them! This is cruelly counterproductive, as their fur is reflective of light, shading their sun sensitive skin. It functions much like the cooling robes and turbans of people from cultures evolved for living in hot deserts.  A place to wade in cool water helps a lot too, as it acts like an AC for their vital organs. If heat is the main concern, I have also seen mastiffs perform very well as LGDs in the heat of southern California, but they do not generally live as long as Pyrenees.

In the winter, my understanding is Missouri can be brutally cold, so a Pyrenees’ cold hardiness will be very helpful when other dogs would not be happy or safe outside. Our pyrenees-akbash seems to prefer sleeping in snow, and has never seemed to get too cold.

They do need a good 6ft tall fence and mammals to protect to be safe and happy. So, I would get your fencing in order and get the cow(s) as close to when you get the dog as possible. They learn best from other dogs, but the next most important thing seems to be bonding. Doing it this way will also likely help the cow bond to the dog, as they will both be going through separation anxiety when being rehoused, and more likely to seek company in each other, which is how LGDs work. This is opposed to how herding dogs work, which is akin to simulating pack hunters. LGDs instead make their charges feel safer and see the dog is their herd leader, so they follow the LGD without the nipping and harassment herders employ. This is also why LGDs are actually much safer around little kids and young animals. However, many LGDs will not abide a herding dog mimicking a coyote as they do their job, and this can create conflict that ends badly for the smaller breed. I also concur about you needing to be the alpha overall, and I’d learn the technique that mimmicks mama grabbing them by the scruff just behind the ears (but not the ear!), and flipping them while you g enough that they cant overpower you. This triggers a submissive pup response and they will remember it and submit even when they’re so big and strong they could easily kick our ass.

Best of luck!

Most LGD breeds are adapted to guard a very large area. We have 3 1/2 acres, and ended up with an Akbash and a Great Pyrenees. We didn't choose those breeds; we just kinda ended up with them. The urge to roam and patrol a large territory is VERY strong with these breeds. We fenced the entire property, and while they do not go over or under the fence (many LGDs do, just not ours) they do run out the gate every chance they get and patrol the neighborhood for hours. They are extremely difficult to contain on smaller acreage, is what I am saying.

If your neighbors are not going to mind your dog patrolling their property as well, then these breeds are great.

If your neighbors don't want your dog on their land, you will have to put up really good fencing to contain them. And if you are putting up fencing, then for that size acreage, basically any large-breed dog will probably do the job of keeping coyotes away.

I also lock up all my delicate animals (goats and chickens) in coyote-proof pens at night, so I don't have to worry. We do have lots of coyotes in our neighborhood. I have heard of coyotes and other predators slipping past LGDs, and I don't want to take the risk.

Our Akbash and Great Pyrenees are mellow, loving, and wonderful dogs. But they are also independent thinkers, and are very hard to train in the traditional sense. If you are used to the automatic obedience and eager-to-please attitudes of dogs like labs, you'll be in for a sad surprise. Be sure to research this temperament really thoroughly before making the plunge; I really can not overemphasize this.  They can be a HUGE pain if your situation and expectations don't match up to their natural tendencies.

Lila Stevens wrote:Most LGD breeds are adapted to guard a very large area. We have 3 1/2 acres, and ended up with an Akbash and a Great Pyrenees. We didn't choose those breeds; we just kinda ended up with them. The urge to roam and patrol a large territory is VERY strong with these breeds. We fenced the entire property, and while they do not go over or under the fence (many LGDs do, just not ours) they do run out the gate every chance they get and patrol the neighborhood for hours. They are extremely difficult to contain on smaller acreage, is what I am saying.

If your neighbors are not going to mind your dog patrolling their property as well, then these breeds are great.

If your neighbors don't want your dog on their land, you will have to put up really good fencing to contain them. And if you are putting up fencing, then for that size acreage, basically any large-breed dog will probably do the job of keeping coyotes away.

I also lock up all my delicate animals (goats and chickens) in coyote-proof pens at night, so I don't have to worry. We do have lots of coyotes in our neighborhood. I have heard of coyotes and other predators slipping past LGDs, and I don't want to take the risk.

Our Akbash and Great Pyrenees are mellow, loving, and wonderful dogs. But they are also independent thinkers, and are very hard to train in the traditional sense. If you are used to the automatic obedience and eager-to-please attitudes of dogs like labs, you'll be in for a sad surprise. Be sure to research this temperament really thoroughly before making the plunge; I really can not overemphasize this.  They can be a HUGE pain if your situation and expectations don't match up to their natural tendencies.

Some LGD breeds are known to be much more aggressive than others.  As you and Ben mentioned, Pyr's are generally much more social with strange people, and I've heard Akbash are the same.  Others like CAS and Kangals tend to dislike strangers very much, some to the point they won't tolerate them at all.  Individuals situations dictate the breed.  In a more populated area, the type of LGD I like may well be a liability, and a dog that is better with people it doesn't know would probably be much better.  I live in a very rural area on a much larger piece of land, and I want a dog that will not allow strangers or strange animals on my land.  I have signs posted and my dogs are well contained.  Anyone that ignores the signs and can even get near my house without me knowing ahead of time has no business being there.

I noticed your comment about pigs.  It has been my experience that grown pigs need little protecting.